Get beaten by nazis, lose your kids

Dude do you have readin problems? I have agreed with you that the ARA that Jason devine represents renounces violence. Were you unable to understand those statements? I am saying I am glad it has changed from the ARA as it wasin the 90s when they epoused violent confrontation. They could even be different movements between then and now. This is the first Ive heard of them again in years.

Why is this hard to understand? Does it personally offend you that they may have a pro-violent past?

And yeah he could lying about it, or mistaken about the makeup, or unable they were able to control the anti-racist demonstrators. I dont know. All I have is the news reports, none of which followed up with names of those arrested and their connections.

Your point? And doesnt opinions evolve? Or I am stuck with my original thoughts and the posting of people like RP cannot change things?

Does this bullying tactic usually work for you Cueball with people in babble? Geez these techniques are usually seen on the other side or on FD

Another direct confrontation strategy revealed was the utilization of the Internet to organize for direct confrontation with racist groups and individuals in the real world. Anti-racist activists document and monitor the on-line and real world events of white racist groups. Anti-racist homepages and e-mail lists are then used to inform other activists about the planned racist activity. Counter-demonstrations and rallies are then planned. "Net surfers" are then recruited to participate in the counter-demonstrations at upcoming racist rallies. The Anti-Racist Action group in particular seems to favor this tactic. They frequently monitor the white supremacist homepages and mailing lists in order to find out where the next white supremacist rally, march, or conference is to be held. This information is then posted on the ARA homepages in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. All who can participate in the anti-racist counter-demonstrations are encouraged to do so in order to form a counter rally. The results of the "real life" battle with groups such as the Klan are then posted on the Net:

A faction of the Ku Klux Klan from Michigan, led by David Newman, obtained a permit to have a rally January 6th at the State House in Columbus, Ohio, "to protest against the Martin Luther King holiday." The A.R.A.-Net and a coalition of other groups organized a counter-demonstration. As they have at two other previous Columbus rallies, the police had a massive presence, including a fenced-in pen to keep hundreds of protesters away from the dozen or so Klan members. The Klan was effectively shouted down for an hour and the few who actually came to hear them were chased out. One took a beating for which a man was later charged with felonious assault. Another protester was arrested for allegedly "assaulting a police horse" as the police cavalry attempted to disperse a large group that had gathered to confront the exiting KKK party. About 100 A.R.A.-Net members from around the country held a meeting after the rally to discuss tactics and organizational structure. There was a tense debate over issues such as whether or not to enter "the cage" set up by the police and what method should be used to establish representation on an A.R.A.-Net steering committee. The group discussion was cut short, but many members continued meeting at various social gatherings. All in all, it was a successful action against the Klan and a valuable exchange of ideas and positions in what will surely be an ongoing dialogue between A.R.A.-Net members. For further info, or to get on the A.R.A. News mailing list, write: ARA, PO BOX 82097, Columbus, Ohio 43202, or e-mail the address at the bottom of this page. (http://www.infinet.com/~leep/ rally.html, 1996)

And what does that have to do with the fact that you just stated that the ARA -- Calgary authorized an attack against the Aryan Guard?

And come to think of it where in that document is there anything about the ARA advocating attacking white supremacists, as in beating them up or entering their homes and beating them with hammers?

Different than what? Where in that document is there anything about the ARA advocating attacking white supremacists?

Im sorry, did you want to cut and paste that again a few more times? Really I dont mind if you want to keep flogging a dead horse that Ive long since moved on from, mostly due to RP and others.

Bullshit. You said and continue to assert that the ARA advocates violence against white supremacists. Indeed earlier, you basically claimed they were moral equivalents.

Bacchus wrote:

Sorry its vigilantism, exactly the same sort as was practised on them.  They espouse violent confrontation, and so do the nazis who also put up posters denouncing people.

 

I find them exactly the same

That is where the "hammer" issue comes up. As RP pointed out there is a difference between some pushing and shoving at a rally and a home invasion, but I digress.

You still have to show me where the ARA advocates violence confrontation with white supremacist. You yourself advocated "confrontation", yet you assert that the ARA "in general" advocates violence. Where?

I said the ARA I was familiar with in the 90s did and I showed you an example. And I agreed that it does not seem like it is the case anymore with the organization. What more do you think your bullying will accomplish?

Do carry on

Familiar with in what sense?

Sounds like a bunch of rumours really. Given how factual your contributions to this thread have been.

At the start,  you accused Devine of advocating violence (proved wrong), suggested they should be charged with "harassment and stalking", because he outed people who apparently think "home invasions" and "beating" people when insulted is ok, called his wife delusional based on a short summary of her political views in a right wing tabloid. Said that the ARA and the Nazi's were "exactly the same". Later accused ARA -- Calgary of promoting violence, when their spokesperson (the same Jason Devine who you earlier called a violent vigilante) clearly condemned violence in the name of his organization.

And after this hash of associative defamatory comments, one after the other, based on some memories you have of the organization you say you were familiar with "in the 90's", we are supposed to take your summary of their views at face value?

When you can find absolutely no ARA spokespeople advocating violence whatesoever.

It doesn't "seem to be the same 'theme' from the ARAs of old"? Based on what? Your rendition of the facts (actually supposition, guilt by association, rumour) on the Devine's and ARA -- Calgary so far?

Nice that you admit there were pro violent ARA members. Gosh it took how many posts to agree with me that they existed after all your denying they did?

And if Good ol dave miller did the same thing without  having had a plan to gain the powers, then yeah he was delusional too. Or, as I pointed above after someone else commented, cynically using those 'promises' to get the gullible to vote for him, which I agreed could have been her motive too when it was pointed out.

No. I simply pointed out that there were some ARA people who took matters into their own hands. The organization never promoted violence as you have wrongly alleged over and over and over again. You really don't seem to understand the idea that people are not guilty by association.

And even those who advocated "violence", such as throwing eggs at Ernst Zundel's house were certainly not "exactly the same" as their Heritage Front counter-parts as you allege. Those Skinhead fuckers beat a young Tamil man into a coma simply for being black -- please get some perspective.

Notice for example, that the police felt no need to charge any ARA members after the 1993 fight at Parliament hill. You would think that the police would certainly have no problem picking up a few violent anarchists. It was the Skinheads who were charged with agravated assault, not anyone for the ARA.

When there was "violence" from the ARA it was limited to some egg throwing, paint bombs, and a few smashed windows. ARA and Nazi Skinheads are not "exactly the same", as you have said, repeatedly.

I do find it offensive but have not seen my opinion of previous incarnations of the ARA as wrong.

Unless you can post info about them from the 90s proving me wrong

So I may have seen my opinion of the ARA Calgary and the Devines as wrong and that I admit, that is all. Bullying to the contrary

No pal. The proof lies with the accuser, you are the accuser. About the only things that anyone could construe as "violence" coming from the ARA Toronto of the 1990's was throwing eggs and paint bombs at Zundel's house. What can I say? I don't see many people rising up in arms because Chretien got pied in the face. Unless you have any evidence to contrary, the only conclusion I can come to is that your smears are much the same as your previous smears against Devine and the ARA -- Calgary -- suppositions based in rumour, not fact.

Here is the hard copy of various newsletters from ARA Toronto from the 1990's. Perhaps you can find something in there where the ARA is calling for violent vigilante attacks.

Fortunately, the Nizkor project exists to staunch the flow of right wing disinformation used to justify vicious attacks on anti-racism activists, and people of colour,  being bandied about on Babble by "well meaning" liberals.

And what flowed from all this disinformation? More suppositions based in rumour and a total smear job characther assassination of the victims of a vicious home assault.

Then again maybe its the AFA I mean

But both seem to use violent terms for confrontation and admit smashing windows and attacking racist thugs

Not quite the proof you were looking for perhaps?  Not to mention whenever the site you posted shows documents about the ARA it is careful to mention

"Nizkor does not condone violence as a political action tool." which does lead me to believe the ARA epoused violence then.

It is not just losing the kids and not being there to comfort them and the kids going throuh unnecessary hell and uncertainty - but the label that goes with having one's kids removed.  To remove someone's kids, one is labeling them as something that is only marginally better than a Graham James or a Robert Pickton or a Russell Williams - and that wasn't fair.  These were good people who did not deserve to have their lives and deaths ruined and their kids taken when what the kids needed most was their parents to help them through this.

Holy Poop!  185 posts!  I'm taking bagkitty's advice.