Harper Conservatives: a party of thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters - and Christians

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Sun, 2011-02-27 11:58

N.Beltov

Harper Conservatives: a party of thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters - and Christians

This column is not yet up on rabble but probably will be shortly.

Dobbin blog: A party of thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters - and Christians

Murray Dobbin wrote:
The situation is so alarming that almost every week there is some new revelation. Just as the Oda lying spree was dying down for a few days, the Canadian Press finally (after 18 months) got detailed records from the office of the discredited Integrity Commissioner, Christiane Ouimet. This is the individual who suddenly resigned just before the auditor general delivered one of the most damning reports she has ever written, denouncing Ouimet for stonewalling on almost every complaint about wrong-doing in the Harper government (along with bullying her own staff).

Now the details are out and they paint a picture of incredible corruption - even if only a fraction of the allegations by whistle blowers turned out to be true. The released documents show that 42 of the 228 cases involved (logged between 2007 and 2010) alleged misuse of taxpayer dollars. Many involved counseling public employees to break the law. Fifty fell into the category of "gross mismanagement" and fully 60 alleged that acts of Parliament had been contravened and almost as many - 58 - involved the punishment of people who tried to expose wrong-doing. It was precisely this kind of political terrorism that Ouimet's office was supposed to reign in.

This behaviour makes Bev Oda's lying barely visible on the ethical breach scale.

re - the title ...

Dobbin wrote:
The fact is that fundamentalist Christians actually believe that government violates the will of God.... Those believing that government is essentially the devil's work don't lose sleep or a little lying or fraud. It's the will of God....

Part of the picture is simply a general decline in moral and ethical standards, a sort of leaking into civil society of the greed is good, anything goes, amorality of the corporate and financial world. Lying and cheating to get ahead is the new normal. Not for everyone, to be sure, but apparently for enough of our fellow-citizens to keep this wretched wrecking crew in office.

Which raises the question: Where are the real Christians when we need them?

Sun, 2011-02-27 12:18

Roscoe

Fighting a losing battle with irrelevancy?

Hiding from the self-righteous wrath of morally superior non-Christians?

Mired in their own scandals and hoist on their own petards: from hiding pedophiles to selling female children as brides for elders?

Connecting extremism to religion is frowned upon in progressive circles, don'tchaknow, Murray? What difference is there between blaming islamofacism on Muslims and blaming political extremism on Christians?

For the record, I'm non-religious and consider all organised religion a potential haven evil people can co-opt for their own advantage.

Sun, 2011-02-27 12:30

N.Beltov

Dobbin identifies the evangelical and/or fundamentalist Christians whose venomous hatred of democracy is worth exposing to the light of day. And it's a natural enough question - where are the Christians who don't hate democracy and who don't re-gurgitate the neo-conservative vomit about "greed is good" and other anti-social views?

Sun, 2011-02-27 12:57

Roscoe

In all walks of life. On the library board, council, volunteer organisations etc. How many individuals conduct their public life by identifying with a religious group? Isn't that private?

Dobbin would do democracy better service if he stuck to extremism in general as a threat to democracy rather than climbing on the fearmongering bandwagon and exposing his own affinty to 'extremism'.

I really don't think that the evangelicals or fundamentalist extremists have nearly as much sway publicly as the fearmongering suggests. They influence their own members but everyone else considers them loons, and rightly so. Canadians have spoken out loud and clear on issues like abortion and ssm. The religious opposition to these issues will always be present but the ability to turn the clock back is gone.

Sun, 2011-02-27 12:58

Roscoe

double post

Sun, 2011-02-27 13:35

N.Beltov

Dobbin is not the only author to aim at unpackaging the links between the Harper Conservatives and the varieties of right wing Christians in this country.Some others are worth reading, I might add.

Perhaps a better term would be "mock" Christians as there seems to be a kind of cognitive dissonance of indifference to corruption, thuggery, the means justifies the ends, greed is good, and so on along with claims of Christian values.

Sun, 2011-02-27 15:10

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

As an atheist,my conscience is clear and I have more morals and ethics in my pinky than these fundamentalist 'christians' have in their whole donut sucking portly beings.

Oops..That was a generalisation..Not all of them are portly.

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:01

ygtbk

Beating up on Christians for being Christians is exactly the same as beating up Muslims for being Muslims, Jews for being Jews, or Hindus for being Hindus -- or atheists for being atheists. Anyone who doesn't understand that can stay after class and clean the erasers.

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:04

RosaL

ygtbk wrote:

Beating up on Christians for being Christians is exactly the same as beating up Muslims for being Muslims, Jews for being Jews, or Hindus for being Hindus -- or atheists for being atheists. Anyone who doesn't understand that can stay after class and clean the erasers.

You should perhaps reread the first post. Surely it's obvious that they aren't being beaten up for being Christians.

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:24

#10

KenS

Murray Dobbin wrote:

Do any of the alleged Christians who support the government of Stephen Harper have any trouble with the fact that his government is the most morally corrupt party in Canadian history? Does their fantasy that he will end abortions sometime in the future allow them to rationalize what he does on an almost daily basis that violates what most people accept as Christian values?

There is a fundamental problem from attempting to speak from a moral perspective that you do not share.

Murray Dobbin wrote:

I have always suspected that Stephen Harper became an evangelical Christian to enhance his ability to reconstruct Canada on the US model of free markets and minimalist government. It would fit with his military-like discipline and end-justifies-the-means approach. He knows that most Canadians are not naturally free-marketeers eager to dismantle the Canadian activist state. But wrap it up in Christian clothing and presto, you have a core of 20% who will follow you anywhere.

And there is one proof of the hazard. Dobbin is just displaying his own ignorance.

Wrap anything in Christian clothing and the mindless automotons that 20% of Canadians are will follow you anywhere.

Who is the bigger idiot: Dobbin or the people he doesnt begin to understand?

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:33

#11

ygtbk

RosaL wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

Beating up on Christians for being Christians is exactly the same as beating up Muslims for being Muslims, Jews for being Jews, or Hindus for being Hindus -- or atheists for being atheists. Anyone who doesn't understand that can stay after class and clean the erasers.

You should perhaps reread the first post. Surely it's obvious that they aren't being beaten up for being Christians.

Exactly: I did read it. If Dobbin has an issue with people being right-wing, that's his real issue - not that they're Christian.

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:50

#12

RosaL

N.Beltov wrote:

Dobbin identifies the evangelical and/or fundamentalist Christians whose venomous hatred of democracy is worth exposing to the light of day. And it's a natural enough question - where are the Christians who don't hate democracy and who don't re-gurgitate the neo-conservative vomit about "greed is good" and other anti-social views?

Well, some of them are at Kairos

Sun, 2011-02-27 16:57

#13

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Ah...But the difference is,sane people who believe in god and identify themselves as christian,muslim,jew etc..generally practice what they preach,have some moral integrity and are generally good people.

Then you have the 'fundamentalists' who are frauds..Who hide behind their 'good book' while they carry out their dirty deeds and live an amoral and ethically bankrupt existance.

Men and women who use 'god' as a teflon shield to assure those who identify themselves as faithful that they are committed to 'good' and the mercinaries of said religion's 'values'

That's how they sell their wars,sell their callousness and contempt for the human condition and sell bottom-of-the-barrel policies.

Fundamentalists are charlatans...And to call them out as such is as honest as calling out water as being wet.

Sun, 2011-02-27 17:26

#14

Pope Teddywang Pope Teddywang's picture

Revelation 17:1-6

Babylon, the Prostitute of the Beast
1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

BABYLON THE GREAT

THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

Sun, 2011-02-27 18:08

#15

Ken Burch

As a person who considers himself a left-Christian of some degree(although I'm not much of a churchgoer these days)I REALLY wish Dobbin had put the word "Christian" in quotation marks.

There's no reason for the left to accept the delusional notion that Jesus was an ultraconservative. Whatever you think of him, old "Jerusalem Slim"(the nickname given to Christ by the IWW, who saw him as the first Wobbly even though they were as anti-clerical as anybody)was not a free market or big defence budget kind of guy.

If he was, you wouldn't have seen the existence of people like the Berrigan Brothers, Dorothy Day, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King, Ernesto Cardinal, or Tommy Douglas(and I'm sure other people can add other names to the list).

(And yes, I do agree with every condemnation of organized Christianity-a "faith" that Christopher Hitchens, before he went over to the Really White Side, justfiably renamed "Christism-Paulism" in one of his essays)that anyone has to offer.

Just my two cents.

Sun, 2011-02-27 18:10

#16

Ken Burch

Pope Teddywang wrote:

Revelation 17:1-6

Babylon, the Prostitute of the Beast
1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

   BABYLON THE GREAT

   THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

   AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

   When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

Well, yeah, you WOULD be. How many times do you see something like that(other than on reruns of "Let's Make A Deal")?

Sun, 2011-02-27 19:01

#17

Boom Boom

I don'tthink we're here yet: Activities of council candidates' church draw criticism

excerpt:

Two Oklahoma City Council candidates attend a church observers have criticized for flying the Confederate flag, making political commentary from the pulpit and training children to use automatic weapons at a church camp.

Sun, 2011-02-27 20:15

#18

Ken Burch

Jesus! when they SAY "Praise the Lord and Pass The Ammunition", they really MEAN it.

Sun, 2011-02-27 21:19

#19

NorthReport

Dobbin is beginning to look like he has a "best before date" stamped on him now. Maybe he needs a career change or whatever.

Sun, 2011-02-27 21:44

#20

N.Beltov

He's genuinely appalled or disgusted by this regime. If he can rise to the level of ridicule and mockery then he will be fine. Don't be so negative.

Sun, 2011-02-27 22:12

#21

Ken Burch

Fine...he has every right to be appalled. But that doesn't justify saying "Christians" when he should have just said "evangelical whackjobs".

It's not fair to hold ALL Christians responsible for Harper and his mob, and, whether Dobbin meant it or not, he sounded like he was doing that.

Sun, 2011-02-27 22:29

#22

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I think the operative word in Dobbin's remark is 'fundamentalist'

I have family who believe in god and that are religious (my upbringing was 100% secular,mind you)..But they are NOT these ultra conservatives that these fundamentalist fringers are.

I think,especially in the U.S. , Congress,The Senate and the President have been hijacked by these fundamentalist ultra conservatives masquerading as 'christians'

You have Hippie Jesus who MOST christians believe in and you got Hitler Jesus which is the 'god' these ultra right wing conservatives tend to purport to believe.

And I think that's what's true with all the major religions..They've all been hijacked by fundamentalists...Some are religious fundamentalists,others are fundamentalists motivated by money and power hiding behind a book they've probably never read....A book they confused with one of Ayn Rand's fiction novels.

I don't think it's much of a coincidence that the real fundamentalism is written on the globally accepted currency---In God We Trust...Novus Ordo Seclorum.

NOTHING is coincidental in politics.

Sun, 2011-02-27 23:03

#23

Frmrsldr

ygtbk wrote:

Beating up on Christians for being Christians is exactly the same as beating up Muslims for being Muslims, Jews for being Jews, or Hindus for being Hindus -- or atheists for being atheists. Anyone who doesn't understand that can stay after class and clean the erasers.

Not really.

Mr. Dobbins, regardless of his faith or lack thereof, is making an internal criticism of christian society as a member of that greater society.

What he is doing is the same as a member (even though they may be practicioners or atheists themselves) of the greater Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist, etc., communities to which they belong.

Being members of the greater communities to which they belong makes them knowledgeable of the subject. Levelling criticism against one's own "internal" community is neither morally incorrect nor hypocritical.

Sun, 2011-02-27 23:34

#24

RosaL

Frmrsldr wrote:

Being members of the greater communities to which they belong makes them knowledgeable of the subject. Levelling criticism against one's own "internal" community is neither morally incorrect nor hypocritical.

This is not a Christian society and most people know no more about Christianity than they do about any other religion.

You have, however, articulated the orthodox position around here.

Sun, 2011-02-27 23:46

#25

Fidel

I think fundamentalist Christians across Canada are fully capable of voting Liberal federally, conservative provincially, and sometimes even vice versa. They like to mix it up for the sake of variety every few decades or so. They could do a soft TV porn entitled, Phony Majority Voters Gone Wild!, or something. Except they'd have to run it every 50 years or whenever they switch parties.

Mon, 2011-02-28 00:18

#26

Frmrsldr

RosaL wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

Being members of the greater communities to which they belong makes them knowledgeable of the subject. Levelling criticism against one's own "internal" community is neither morally incorrect nor hypocritical.

This is not a Christian society and most people know no more about Christianity than they do about any other religion.

You have, however, articulated the orthodox position around here.

Think bigger than babble or the mirco subgroup or society to which one may belong.

This is the "orthodox" position of historians. The Americas/Western Hemisphere, Europe and Australia, New Zealand are (considered/regarded as) "christian societies."

Example: I am an atheist with Buddhist sympathies. I have resided/reside in the U.S.A. and Canada. The U.S.A. and Canada are part of the Americas/Western Hemisphere. Therefore, regardless of my personal faith (or lack thereof) I am a member of a greater christian society.

Hypocracy and immorality are universal. One doesn't have to be a practicing or expert on any faith or religion to have an informed opinion on logic and morality.

Otherwise that would be prejudism by theists against athiests.

As Voltaire said in Candide:

"I may be an athiest but I am a very moral man."

Mon, 2011-02-28 00:23

#27

N.Beltov

Maybe it would be more exact to reference the hegemonic religious ideology of Christianity here in NA. It's dominant among religious ideologies without being the official ideology. We also have very strong secular and humanistic ideologies in NA ... which is why the fundys and their financial backers are so determined to wage war upon us; historical books like Critique of Intelligent Design really lay this out well.

Mon, 2011-02-28 00:46

#28

Frmrsldr

N.Beltov wrote:

Maybe it would be more exact to reference the hegemonic religious ideology of Christianity here in NA. It's dominant among religious ideologies without being the official ideology. We also have very strong secular and humanistic ideologies in NA ... which is why the fundys and their financial backers are so determined to wage war upon us; historical books like Critique of Intelligent Design really lay this out well.

There are micro differences.

Canada and Europe are more secular than the U.S.A. The European country Britain had a "fundy" Prime Minister - Tony Blair.

The state of Switzerland passed legislation banning the future construction of minarets, France and (the Canadian province of) Quebec banned the wearing of nikabs (sp?) for government employees, Canada's CPC has a bill before the House that will ban women from wearing a veil when voting in federal elections (for identification purposes), etc.

Mon, 2011-02-28 02:00

#29

N.Beltov

You're providing examples of anti-Muslim bigotry (or dog whistle bigotry that's disguised) and not straightforward examples of Christian ideology. In India, there is also anti-Muslim bigotry and even pogroms but it is a predominantly Hindu country.

Some studies of the US compare it to very fundamentalist and religious states in the world. What's new about the Harper Conservatives is that they are importing the alien conservative ideology from the US in a deliberate and planned way. See, for example George Lakoff on US Conservatism in an hour long lecture over here.

Mon, 2011-02-28 02:55

#30

Frmrsldr

N.Beltov wrote:

You're providing examples of anti-Muslim bigotry (or dog whistle bigotry that's disguised) and not straightforward examples of Christian ideology. In India, there is also anti-Muslim bigotry and even pogroms but it is a predominantly Hindu country.

Some studies of the US compare it to very fundamentalist and religious states in the world. What's new about the Harper Conservatives is that they are importing the alien conservative ideology from the US in a deliberate and planned way. See, for example George Lakoff on US Conservatism in an hour long lecture over here.

That's just it. Even though claims have been made that Canada and (Western) Europe are secular societies and (even in the U.S.A.) there is a separation of church and state, since 9/11/2001 there has been this creep in the reverse direction.

Mon, 2011-02-28 12:38

#31

RosaL

Frmrsldr wrote:

Think bigger than babble or the mirco subgroup or society to which one may belong.

This is the "orthodox" position of historians. The Americas/Western Hemisphere, Europe and Australia, New Zealand are (considered/regarded as) "christian societies."

Really?? Historically Christian, maybe. That's the only thing historians would be qualified to pronounce on. 'Post Christian' might be defensible.

Mon, 2011-02-28 12:42

#32

RosaL

Stephen Harper is a fundamentalist Christian. That doesn't mean this is a Christian society.

Mon, 2011-02-28 15:16

#33

George Victor

Folks perhaps missed reading Marci McDonald's The Armageddon Factor: The Rise of Christian Nationalism in Canada, published just last year. Evangelical, fundamentalist Christians continue to build toward fulfilment of their own social agenda in Canada. Start your background reading with Marci McDonald's "The Man Behind Stephen Harper" in Oct. 2004, The Walrus.

What's to debate? Ignorance can see their (always) incremental program in place soon after the next election.

Mon, 2011-02-28 22:52

#34

Frmrsldr

RosaL wrote:

Really?? Historically Christian, maybe. That's the only thing historians would be qualified to pronounce on. 'Post Christian' might be defensible.

Yeah, historically.

When the Roman Empire converted to christianity, christianity spread through the empire. By the feudal era, what was the predominant religion of Europe?

When the Europeans came to the Americas/Western Hemisphere, what was their religion? In other words, what religion did European settlers found the "New World" upon?

Christianity, right?

Mon, 2011-02-28 23:01

#35

Frmrsldr

RosaL wrote:

Stephen Harper is a fundamentalist Christian. That doesn't mean this is a Christian society.

Of course not. That's an absurd argument.

Canada's being a predominantly "christian" society/culture does not rest upon the fact that, Herr Harper, a fundamentalist christian, is Prime Minister.

In fact the reverse is true.

That Herr Harper is a fundamentalist christian (most likely, certainly a sufficient contributing cause) rests upon the fact that he was born into a predominantly christian society/culture and was raised to be a christian by his family, as they in turn were raised, etc.

The fact that Canada is a predominantly christian society/culture predates Harper, going back to its "founding" by European (christian) settlers.

Mon, 2011-02-28 23:38

#36

RosaL

Frmrsldr wrote:

RosaL wrote:

Really?? Historically Christian, maybe. That's the only thing historians would be qualified to pronounce on. 'Post Christian' might be defensible.

Yeah, historically.

When the Roman Empire converted to christianity, christianity spread through the empire. By the feudal era, what was the predominant religion of Europe?

When the Europeans came to the Americas/Western Hemisphere, what was their religion? In other words, what religion did European settlers found the "New World" upon?

Christianity, right?

I am more or less agreeing with the "historically" point. What I'm denying is that this is "currently" a Christian society.

I'm not even going to try to address your next post. You and I are simply not communicating This may be my fault: I express myself quite succinctly and it's not always clear to people what I am saying.

Mon, 2011-02-28 23:52

#37

NDPP

.... but no cigar

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110228/sussex-drive-bomb-threat-1...

Tue, 2011-03-01 04:23

#38

Frmrsldr

RosaL wrote:

I am more or less agreeing with the "historically" point. What I'm denying is that this is "currently" a Christian society.

I'm not even going to try to address your next post. You and I are simply not communicating This may be my fault: I express myself quite succinctly and it's not always clear to people what I am saying.

As much as you and I would like to think that Canada is a secular multicultural society where people have the liberty to form their own religious/non-religious/spiritual belief societies, it is not.

When you are part of a governmental swearing in process (in a court of law, being inducted into the military, etc.,) what are the official options you are limited to? To either place your right hand on a bible or to raise your right hand.

What are Canada's biggest officially recognized statutory holidays? Christmas and easter.

French is recognized as one of two of Canada's official languages even though the number Chinese and Hindu-Urdu speakers outnumbers Francophones in Canada.

Christianity is the officially recognized/state accepted/sanctioned religion even though the number of nonchristians is (probably) greater.

Being an atheist with Buddhist sympathies, I am made painfully aware on an almost daily basis of the official state sponsored/sanctioned christian bias.

Both the recognition of the official religion and languages by the state is based upon the European settler history of Canada. It doesn't make it right, but sadly, that's the way it is (for now.)

Tue, 2011-03-01 06:34

#39

George Victor

If you folks could use a finer brush in your analysis...the "thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters" are associated with the malevolent form of Christianity that supports Steve and his "thugs, liars, cheats....etc.

There are still Christians who turn to the sermon on the mount for inspiration, not the anticipation of armageddon.

Murray Dobbin made very clear the "variety" of Christianity he was referring to: "fundamentalist." Why all the confusion, the meaningless babble?

Tue, 2011-03-01 22:22

#40

Frmrsldr

You're right George. Fundamentalist christians who support the Harpo Cons as opposed to the mainstream christians who do not - the silent majority, perhaps?

Tue, 2011-03-01 22:45

#41

N.Beltov

Perhaps a Lakoffian (George Lakoff) analysis might be more apt. It's not just the fundamentalist Christians but all those conservative minded people who start from the strict father morality (vs. the nurturing parent, yadda yadda) whether they are Christians or whatever (even atheists can and do subscribe to this range of conservative views) and who thereby "buy into" the whole translation of of this morality into politics.

Harper's particular authoritarian style also makes for the kind of cabinet in which everything seems to go through the PMO because the little corporal has to approve everything... and you thereby get all these thugs, yes men (and women), etc. because obeying the master is elevated above any notion of good public policy. They want to destroy any notion of a public and any policy that could flow from such a notion.

Wed, 2011-03-02 19:12

#42

Roscoe

Godwin wins again. Any occasion his Law is confirmed is a sad moment for public discourse. In my lurking days, I read of oldgoat censuring posters who resort to Nazi references for individuals they dislike. Is Nazi references OK with babble policy?

Wed, 2011-03-02 19:40

#43

Fidel

Apparently the fuhrer did mention the importance of Christianity to German society and public education a number of times in a speech just prior to ramming [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933]the enabling act[/url] through the Reichstag in 1933 to the protestations of social democrats and communists, or the few who were still around and hadn't yet been arrested and imprisoned.

Wed, 2011-03-02 19:41

#44

remind

what in particular are you speaking about roscoe, a quote of what you are blathering about would be good?!

Wed, 2011-03-02 20:40

#45

RosaL

Frmrsldr wrote:

Christianity is the officially recognized/state accepted/sanctioned religion even though the number of nonchristians is (probably) greater.

There are some vestigial remnants, but that's all they are. (Christmas is the ultimate capitalist festival, not a sign of Christian dominance!)

Wed, 2011-03-02 20:54

#46

RosaL

George Victor wrote:

Folks perhaps missed reading Marci McDonald's The Armageddon Factor: The Rise of Christian Nationalism in Canada, published just last year. Evangelical, fundamentalist Christians continue to build toward fulfilment of their own social agenda in Canada. Start your background reading with Marci McDonald's "The Man Behind Stephen Harper" in Oct. 2004, The Walrus.

What's to debate? Ignorance can see their (always) incremental program in place soon after the next election.

I did read that book, and with some interest. A weird thing happened, too: Here I was, blissfully reading along and I came on a name I recognized. It was someone I knew personally! Not well, but I certainly knew the guy. I don't even know if he's aware that he's in the book. It would have seemed rather tactless to bring the subject up and he's moved away now.

I think these people are more of a threat than is generally recognized (though not as much of a threat, perhaps, as McDonald believes). They want to make this what (in their minds) is a 'Christian society'. But I understand some people here to be arguing that this is (now) a Christian society.

Wed, 2011-03-02 22:33

#47

Frmrsldr

RosaL wrote:

There are some vestigial remnants, but that's all they are. (Christmas is the ultimate capitalist festival, not a sign of Christian dominance!)

Christmas, a christian observance, has only been corrupted by capitalism since post WW2.

The "fundys" and other honest mainstream christians tend to stress "the true meaning of christmas".

Whether they pracice what they preach is, of course, another matter.

Btw, do you like the Charles M. Schultz animated feature, "Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown!"

Trust good ol' Linus to get the meaning of christmas right.

Wed, 2011-03-02 22:56

#48

Fidel

Yes I used to think Christmas was about giving and receiving gifts when I was young. For the first Christians, however, I think it was more about regard for and celebrating life. For a long time it was about realizing how miraculous it is for an infant and mother to survive child birth. And if the kid lived to four or five, then their chances of making it to adulthood were greatly improved. More celebration was in order. I think some non-Christian cultures actually avoided naming a child until they reached a certain age for their own religious reasons.

Thu, 2011-03-03 07:00

#49

George Victor

RosaL wrote:

George Victor wrote:

Folks perhaps missed reading Marci McDonald's The Armageddon Factor: The Rise of Christian Nationalism in Canada, published just last year. Evangelical, fundamentalist Christians continue to build toward fulfilment of their own social agenda in Canada. Start your background reading with Marci McDonald's "The Man Behind Stephen Harper" in Oct. 2004, The Walrus.

What's to debate? Ignorance can see their (always) incremental program in place soon after the next election.

I did read that book, and with some interest. A weird thing happened, too: Here I was, blissfully reading along and I came on a name I recognized. It was someone I knew personally! Not well, but I certainly knew the guy. I don't even know if he's aware that he's in the book. It would have seemed rather tactless to bring the subject up and he's moved away now.

I think these people are more of a threat than is generally recognized (though not as much of a threat, perhaps, as McDonald believes). They want to make this what (in their minds) is a 'Christian society'. But I understand some people here to be arguing that this is (now) a Christian society.

Hi, Rosa. What is there about the presence of Stockwell Day and Steve's devotional predilections that suggests McDonald is over the top with this? All of the figures for church attendance I've seen (don't have them at hand) is that the fundamentalist congregations grow like topsy while others stagnate/disappear. And they ae active in politics...got a couple in my constituency's backyard. That's a fine line you've drawn..."more of a threat than is generally recognized (though not as much of a threat, perhaps, as McDonald believes)."

Thu, 2011-03-03 08:25

#50

Fidel

Yes, apparently God is still more popular among Canadians than the two colonial administrative parties combined. The cult of impotence in Ottawa needs a totally fabulous makeover, or something.

Thu, 2011-03-03 10:31

#51

George Victor

LTJ: "How polarized this man has made us"

Polarized, LTJ? I think we implode in our non-focused, wordsmithing frustration. And those old-fashioned Christians of the left are dissed by the intelligentsia. The problem originates in expecting house painters to produce a Mona Lisa.

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