disgusted with NHL

This in part goes back to the merger of the WHA and the NHL...the WHA's claim to fame was the violence, the hockey came second.  There was talk it would surpass the NHL in terms of being the number one league (meaning the one that pays the highest salaries) and the WHA was the first league to sign a million dollar contract (bobby hull to the winnipeg jets)...

So the NHL took a pretty "laissez-faire" attitude towards violence for many years and now it's considered a staple of the game.

As for the chara hit, i can't really say.  From some angles it looks like he pushes his head into the glass, or at least had his hand up, or if he just checked him normally but it happened to be right where the glass starts, so when he checked him, instead of his upper body going into the glass (like everywhere else) it went over the boards enough for him to hit the end of the glass.  When you watch it in normal speed it looks like a normal check, but in slow mo you get the impression he was riding him along the boards.

Either way, whether it's new rules, new boards (this has been a known problem for years!), they gotta do something cause the injuries are getting bad and seemingly more frequent.  

It was a late hit/elbow-drive into the glass partition. Chara's played at the Bell Centre enough times to have been aware of that part of the boards. As one player described it, whenever a bench access or penalty box is opened during play, 15 or so guys are yelling "DOOR! DOOR!" Chara has a mean streak. That bullshit about him not having a thing for Pacioretty is bullshit, too. In a game the month before, Chara went berzerk at the end of the game over a shove Pacioretty gave him after Pacioretty scoring the winning goal.

I will try to be nice here...

I have been around hockey for 37 years now at many levels in different aspects. From my peewee days to 2 years with the old Tri-City Americans to no contact old timer. I have coached my sons, refereed games from peewee to junior 'B'. 99.99% of all the players have some respect for the other guy. I'm not saying I haven't seen guys go out ther and try to hurt someone but it is actually quite rare to see actual malice. Frustration and hot headedness yes, but not the 'I want to put you in hospital' mentality.

I don't know Chara personally but I know people who do (Cam Neely is a close friend of my wife since they carpooled to the rink together as children). He is a tough player and he is a big man but never have I heard anyone call him 'cheap' prior to this incident. I have watched a few different replays and I just don't see any intent there (and intent does matter). Where the glass starts and stops around the benches can be quite different in every rink and belive me, the game is very, very fast at that level. A lot faster than most people think from watching TV. Did Chara want to give him a solid thump? Yes. Did he want to put him in hospital and endager his carreer? No. If the hit was but a few feet in either direction and this conversation would be taking place right now.

I don't think everyone should vilify the man because I, and a lot of my friends form hockey, see it as a tragic accident. The comparisons to the Bertuzzi incident are unfair and unwarranted. That was a blatant attack from behind away from the play.

We have been fighting at the minor levels to get more padding around the gates and the end of the glass for a while because this has actually happened quite a bit. Hopefully this can turn into a positive for the safety of the game and create some changes.

I am actually glad for Pacioretty that it was not the seamless glass we saw everywhere for a while because that would have split his head in two and we might have seen our first death.

Go Canucks Go!

melovesproles wrote:

all these Hockey Conservatives who dominate HNIC and the NHL head office

I think Cherry is about the only Hockey Conservative left anywhere today and even he is going soft from a few years back. I love the speed and skill in the new game and hate to see things like the Chara hit, but I do like to see a clean hard hit. It is a contact sport after all.

The owners and league would like to see all fighting and most hitting gone but I don't think that's because they care about the players as people, just as expensive assets.

politicalnick wrote:

I have watched a few different replays and I just don't see any intent there (and intent does matter). Where the glass starts and stops around the benches can be quite different in every rink and belive me, the game is very, very fast at that level. A lot faster than most people think from watching TV. Did Chara want to give him a solid thump? Yes. Did he want to put him in hospital and endager his carreer? No.

Are you claiming that you can determine "intent" from watching a video? I call bullshit.  Either that, or you're some sort of legal genius and can read the subjective thoughts and mind of Z. Chara.

However, let's leave your superhuman claims aside. If it's your claim that intent matters why don't you explain why this is the case. I'm not talking about Chara being criminally charged, etc. I'm talking about the usual procedures involved in disciplining players in the course of a season.

Lacking some sort of good reply on this, I would still stick with the view that discussion of intent is a (calculated?) distraction. In criminal law, intent is an necessary element of any crime. But this is "not" a crime, right? Of course, without further evidence, I wouldn't impute any intent on your part. lol.

Well, yea. Every year, about this time of year (which, of course, has nothing to do with putting bums in seats in hockey arenas, right?) we get treated to some new hockey atrocity. Sports journalists express mock concern for "intent", the tut-tuts make hockey discussions sound like a chicken farm, and it's all one big "I cannot look away" car wreck. Gah.

I've never played hockey, but as a fan, the Chara hit is disgusting. I'm not interested, to be honest, in "intent." At best, the hit was reckless and cynical--it broke a vertebrae for crying out loud. How can you pretend that you're interested in protecting players when a hit like that goes unpunished?

I've always been compelled by Don Cherry's argument about modern equipment dulling players' respect for the fragility of the human body (heard again here from al'Q and Snert), but it's also an utter failure on the part of the NHL to punish recklessness in general. In football, for example, if you mistime your tackle and take out someone's ankle, it doesn't matter what you "meant" to do, you get a red card. You are responsible for your own body. I understand that hockey is a fast-paced game (and the fans like it that way) but if it's too fast to control your body and people are getting hurt, something's wrong.

Pacioretty was the closest I've ever seen to an NHL player fulfilling Cherry's morbid prophecy: someday soon, someone is going to die on the ice. That day is getting closer and closer.

Catchfire wrote:

In football, for example, if you mistime your tackle and take out someone's ankle, it doesn't matter what you "meant" to do, you get a red card. You are responsible for your own body. I understand that hockey is a fast-paced game (and the fans like it that way) but if it's too fast to control your body and people are getting hurt, something's wrong.

Exactly. A player is always supposed to be responsible for their stick when injury occurs as a result, how is this any different?

N.Beltov wrote:

 

politicalnick wrote:

I have watched a few different replays and I just don't see any intent there (and intent does matter). Where the glass starts and stops around the benches can be quite different in every rink and belive me, the game is very, very fast at that level. A lot faster than most people think from watching TV. Did Chara want to give him a solid thump? Yes. Did he want to put him in hospital and endager his carreer? No.

Are you claiming that you can determine "intent" from watching a video? I call bullshit.  Either that, or you're some sort of legal genius and can read the subjective thoughts and mind of Z. Chara.

However, let's leave your superhuman claims aside. If it's your claim that intent matters why don't you explain why this is the case. I'm not talking about Chara being criminally charged, etc. I'm talking about the usual procedures involved in disciplining players in the course of a season.

Lacking some sort of good reply on this, I would still stick with the view that discussion of intent is a (calculated?) distraction. In criminal law, intent is an necessary element of any crime. But this is "not" a crime, right? Of course, without further evidence, I wouldn't impute any intent on your part. lol.

No, I am not Kreskin. I should have used the preface 'in my opinion'.

Intention is, and always will be used in determining severity of punishment. IE: if you intentionally drive your car into a crowd of people you get it for murder. If you have a heart attack while driving and hit a crowd of people you get sympathy for having to live with the result. Intent does matter.

N.Beltov]</p> <p>[quote wrote:

Montreal police confirmed they opened a criminal investigation Thursday into the devastating hit that placed Canadiens forward Max Pacioretty in the hospital with a cracked vertebra....

Legal and law-enforcement experts expressed doubt the police investigation would result in criminal charges.

"This would be the type of case that would be very tough to prosecute," said John Galianos, a former major crimes investigator with Quebec's provincial police.

He added that the difficulty facing prosecutors would be establishing Chara's intent to injure.

"I don't think a Crown attorney would prosecute based on the video," Galianos said.

I don't see how this does anyhing but confirm my position that intent does matter.

Just another little thing, these guys know what they sign up for, hockey players, football players, boxers, MMA. They are all full contact sports. I'm sure none of these atheletes are delusional and think they're playing golf. OK - maybe the MMA guys can't remember the difference anymore but none of them sign up for a swim meet. Making millions in a full contact sport is risky.

Now please don't go all 'postal' on me because I think players assume a great share of responsibility when they step on the ice. I don't like to see these things happen but are they forced to go and play? They could all have chosen to be something else if the inherent danger in the sport was no palettable to them.

Thanks for that link bekayne. I also found the following ... which pretty well blows the claims of politicalNick out of the water.

Quote:

Montreal police confirmed they opened a criminal investigation Thursday into the devastating hit that placed Canadiens forward Max Pacioretty in the hospital with a cracked vertebra....

Legal and law-enforcement experts expressed doubt the police investigation would result in criminal charges.

"This would be the type of case that would be very tough to prosecute," said John Galianos, a former major crimes investigator with Quebec's provincial police.

He added that the difficulty facing prosecutors would be establishing Chara's intent to injure.

"I don't think a Crown attorney would prosecute based on the video," Galianos said.

A change for me. Maybe it would be better to say that the sports "journalists" do the work of the NHL and the milqutoast NHLPA in determining, to the best of their abilities, whether law enforcement has a chance to end their party (of violence). So maybe not so much a calculated distraction as a calculated effort to muddy the waters of the public understanding of police investigation of violent acts. And maybe to gloat that, because intent is hard to prove, the NHL can continue to contenance horrific acts of violence such as this one as perfectly OK.

Quebec prosecutor asks police to investigate Chara hit on Pacioretty

Edited to add - Perhaps Chara has been coached (by ?) to blather about his lack of "intent" in order to put himself in a better legal position should law enforcement clap him in handcuffs and charge him? "Remember, Zdeno, no matter how much you were pissed off about Pacioretty's little shot in the other game, DON'T Mention it. It would go to "intent" and put you in a more difficult legal position . " yadda yadda

Catchfire wrote:

Thankfully, the Commish has spoken up and settled this issue. Severe concussions, broken vertebra and season(career?)-ending injuries are just part of the game.

Quote:

"It was a horrific injury, we're sorry that it happened in our fast-paced physical game, but I don't think whether or not supplemental discipline was imposed would change what happened and in fact the people in the game who I have heard from almost to a person ... believe that it was handled appropriately by hockey operations."

Bettman is quite right in the fact he could suspend Chara for life and it would not take Pacioretty out of hospital. There is no going back in life.

They, the league, are in a tough spot here trying to balance reaction to what is obviously a diverse set of views on the incident. In the end they will do what they think is best for maintaining the fan base and revenues regardless of any public outrage.

N.Beltov wrote:

The "tough spot" also relates to avoiding having their players imprisoned for acts of violence that go beyond what Slimovich calls "outside the norm of what is found in the sport of hockey". If the NHL can normalize a death on the ice, for example, by trivializing events leading up to a death on the ice, then it may be more difficult to prosecute a player who kills another player in an on-ice incident. It would be "normal" and, therefore, OK.

I highly doubt the league would want to 'normalize' death on the ice but I am not party to their strategy meetings so I can't say for sure.

I agree with principle that acts 'outside the norm' such as the Bertuzzi incident should be open to prosecution. It is a hard road for police and prosecuters when the league uses the 'private club' and 'assumed resposibility' defenses.

There have been steps taken to curtail 'attacks' on the ice such as the instigator rule and as of last year the rule about leaving the bench to fight (but only in the last 5 minutes of the game). Does this go far enough? Some would say no and others would say it is to much.

In the end the league, in my opinion, will always try to protect the revenues first and players second and if that means catering to 'old time' hockey fans that is what they will do.

I was watching the game.

When the Habs scored to make it 4-0,I turned to my friend and said , 'You watch,the B's are going to goon things up'

A few minutes later a loud bang and a player lying lifeless on the ice.

After watching the replay 100 times from various angles and in slow motion,you can clearly see Chara guiding Pacioretty's head into the partition.

There was a great picture of the hit on the cover of Thursday's Journal de Montreal..Pictures speak a thousand words.

First I was disgusted with TSN...Showing the replay on Sports Centre,the host (don't remember which one it was) refers to Pacioretty being taken off the ice on a stretcher saying , 'He'll be juuust fine,folks'

Then I watched countless talking heads on TSN calling Hab fans 'emotional' , the hit 'unintentional', Chara 'not a dirty player'.

It was also TSN that was saying over and over again that the hit didn't warrant a suspension.

I didn't expect Chara to get a big suspension..I figured he'd get 3 or 5 games max.

I almost threw up when I heard he was NOT going to get suspended at all..OR even a fine.

Today, I read that Pavel Kubina got suspended 3 games for a high elbow against the Blackhawks...I saw the video.

The elbow was directed at the players head but only managed to knock his helmet out of place without a penalty or an injury.

Fuck you,TSN...Fuck you.

And if Pacioretty's career is over,I hope he SUES Bettman and the NHL.

alan smithee wrote:

Fuck you,TSN...Fuck you.

And if Pacioretty's career is over,I hope he SUES Bettman and the NHL.

You always have the option to turn the channel if you are that upset with TSN but the coverage was similar on all channels.

I think he could sue Chara if he wanted but Bettmen and the league (board of directors, management) were not on the ice and did not take part in the play.

Or at least not a Habs fan, which, let's be honest, is fuelling a lot of this discussion.

Fair enough al-Q but this would have me riled up no matter what team or what player was involved.

I've been watching hockey since I was learning how to crawl..I remember the 70's..I remember the days when players didn't wear helmets and I remember the Broad Street Bullies who have always been labeled as the ultimate goon squad.

I never saw Dave Schultz drive someone's skull into a turnbuckle...In fact back in the days when brawls were mainstream,I don't remember cheap shots like you see now.

And as for suing Bettman and the NHL,I'll tell you why that's the proper course of action.

Does anyone remember when Dale Hunter cross checked Pierre Turgeon from behind when he was celebrating a goal in a playoff game a few years ago?..I believe that was on Bettman's watch.

He got 26 fuckin' games.

Trevor Gillies got a 10 game suspension a week or so ago for a play that did not send another player to a hospital.

And isn't it funny that Colin Campbell's son Gregory plays for the B's?...And that Chara is a franchise player?

And Bettman to face the cameras today and say that it was  just an unfortunate hockey hit?

Sorry but the blame lies on the shoulders of the league,it's discipinary committee and the board of governors themselves.

I think if Chara got 3 or 5 games some people would still be outraged..BUT Pacioretty said even if Chara got a bare minimum he'd be fine with the decision...Then it would be case closed.

But I'm also pissed with Canadiens management and ownership who have remained silent...They should have ripped apart this ruling and not ONE GM or owner comes out to condemn it either...Not even Mario Lemieux who said he was embarrassed with the league after a fight filled game against the Isles..Which resulted in fines and suspensions.

The NHL is becoming a bush league joke and they are trying to sell this trite?

It's unacceptable--period.

alan smithee wrote:

I never saw Dave Schultz drive someone's skull into a turnbuckle...In fact back in the days when brawls were mainstream,I don't remember cheap shots like you see now.

I have never seen a turnbukle in an ice rink...LOL

And please clarify exactly what I am thinking that makes me an 'idiot'.

Geez, the name calling in here, I thought this was a forum for all the leftist liberals who just want a big Group-Hug

politicalnick wrote:

I do remeber the hit on Turgeon and hunter got all he deserved. So did Bertuzzi.

I am not arguing what should have been done or not.

I simply have the opinion that the league and owners will always do what is in their best interest financially.

Turnbuckle,partition,post..Whatever.

And thanks for enforcing my point...The league has different rules for different teams and different players.

It also makes the case that the league can and should be liable for what happens on the ice.

Therefore,Bettman and the league should be sued if this player's career is finished....Just as Steven Moore should do..The difference between the 2 is that Bertuzzi WAS suspended and tarred and feathered,I might add.

And Hunter deserved 26 games?...LOL!

How did the NHL not see this as a hit to the head?

[img]http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam...

I think some of the debate as to "he knew what he was doing" is due to watching ultra slow motion replays.  When you watch it in full speed it happens so fast it's hard to think he went from just hitting him normally to trying to injure him on the stanchion.  like someone said, a foot or two in either direction and it IS a normal check, how do you make that judgement in a fraction of a second when your training tells you to hit almost on instinct?  like they say, hindsight is 20-20.

i just don't think you can be trained to win at all costs, put your health on the line to take hits, give them, chase pucks into the corner, block shots..and then say you have to be able to ease off during the game in case someone gets hurt.  if the point of suspension is to reduce injury, then intent absolutely matters.  

I compare this to the one on the calgary flames (infamous hit where the head is guided into the stanchion clearly on purpose..was it nieuwindyk?) and it's just not the same thing.  

possible solutions:

fix the damn stanchion so it's there isn't a corner like a brick wall on the playing surface.  curve it, pad it, pad the whole damn boards like a speed skating rink but do something!

have a crease with a no hitting zone along the benches

RevolutionPlease wrote:

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

I never saw Dave Schultz drive someone's skull into a turnbuckle...In fact back in the days when brawls were mainstream,I don't remember cheap shots like you see now.

Guess what else has changed in the NHL since then? Philly was the last team to win the Cup with an all-Canadian squad. Chara's just another in a long line of "skilled" Europeans who have taken honour out of the game.

 

Are you going to call us "left wing commie pinkos" too?  ;)

 

Yeah, those bums from Europe can't hold a candle to the honour of Bertuzzi.

In Europe, stanchions on either side of the rink would be ten feet farther apart. In that case Chara might have been two or three strides behind Patch instead of one and half had the game not been played on a rink the area of which is a legacy of colonial days, an ongoing tribute to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Skating_Rink]Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn.[/url] They get more seats around the rink for those who enjoy seeing the blood and gore up close, too.

Compare these incidents.

Chara vs Pacioretty   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jimZ1tSdPY0   Check out the view at 1:09

Pavel Kubina suspended 3 games today for this ;  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGLoXMmwzBU

The classic 26 game suspension from 1993 ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xte-Vtxg-m8

Nuff said.

Trolling for worst ever hits?   WTF.  This crap has to go.  Change the equipment.  Over 20 yrs ago, I got some DEFENDER shoulder pads.  It was the only way at 5' 0" I could take on the 6' 2"'ers with the same equipment.  Go back to the old padded(with soft material, not plastic) shoulder and elbow pads.  I could hold my own with the padded stuff but once the plastic was introduced, all bets were off.