Harper Conservatives: a party of thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters - and Christians

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Thu, 2011-03-10 17:36

Bacchus

Frmrsldr wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

Provide a quote from a credible source that backs up your claim: "most PROTESTANT colonies in the Americas had actually banned Christmas observances."

I read the wikipedia article. It says that christmas was rendered illegal (by law) in Plymouth colony (which was later incorporated into Massachusetts colony), Massachusetts and Connecticut.

So the above quote is a bit sloppy and innaccurate as most protestant colonies (all were except (mostly) Maryland) had not (officially) banned christmas (services) - Plymouth colony (later part of Massachussets), Massachusetts and Connecticut were not a majority of American (protestant) colonies.

And how many English colonies were there at that time? Certainylk not the '13'.

Thu, 2011-03-10 17:38

#103

Frmrsldr

Bacchus wrote:

You do realize that the puritans that left england after 1660 left BECAUSE Cromwellian putitan england was dead and the Restoration of Charles II was happening? In fact many left after James II was overthrown (the Catholic King) and replaced by his daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange (the Protestant rulers)

Sure, could very well be.

But what about the ones that left (shortly) before and during the Cromwellian puritan period in England?

Thu, 2011-03-10 17:38

#104

Bacchus

Frmrsldr wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ Frmrsldr, Malcolm

Saying a prayer doesn't make a Church festival, and as far as I know, Thanksgiving is not actually part of the liturgical calendar - it does not celebrate some event in the life of Jesus, and it is not a Saint's Day.

So what. Thanksgiving is a christian observance and was/is(?) recognized by puritans - to the point where they took a break from their labors no less, even though it has nothing to do with jesus. They (puritans) probably justified/justify it by citing passages from the old testament bible where significant persons set time/a day aside to thank god for his/their blessings.

Its a political holiday dude, nothing more. I know how you really really want to be right but its nothing more than like presidents day or veterans day etc. Not a christian holiday. The fact that right wing christians may try to make it christian doesnt make it so, any more than your statements do

Thu, 2011-03-10 17:56

#105

Frmrsldr

Bacchus wrote:

And how many English colonies were there at that time? Certainylk not the '13'.

Up to the time of the Cromwellian Commonwealth:

Virginia, Plymouth colony/Massachussetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Maryland: 6/7.

By the time of the Restoration:

New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina and South Carolina: 6.

Georgia (as you can guess by its name - after the Hanoverian king George) wasn't surveyed/didn't get a grant/wasn't officially a colony until the early 18th Century, thus making the original 13 colonies.

Thu, 2011-03-10 18:06

#106

Frmrsldr

Bacchus wrote:

Its a political holiday dude, nothing more. I know how you really really want to be right but its nothing more than like presidents day or veterans day etc. Not a christian holiday. The fact that right wing christians may try to make it christian doesnt make it so, any more than your statements do

What are you talking about?

At its inception, those who first recognized it were devout christians the (Spanish in Florida included.) Its roots are in the christian societies that created the observance.

What other world faith/spirituality does the thanksgiving that Americans and Canadians observe originate from?

It may be a "political holiday" now after recent secularization, but that's not its origins.

Thu, 2011-03-10 19:01

#107

6079_Smith_W

Frmrsldr wrote:

What other world faith/spirituality does the thanksgiving that Americans and Canadians observe originate from?

Well North American native, for one. And French Roman Catholic, whom you might consider the same faith as Puritans, but I doubt any of them would have seen it that way back in the day. And although Champlain was Catholic, they actually started it to keep their spirits up through thewinter, not play with rosaries.

And the original New England feast was also inspired by a similar feast to celebrate the survival from a seige , and of course, to celebrate a massacre:

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/2009/cooking-the-history-books-the-than...

Yup, sounds like christmas to me.

Now this little pedantic diversion has strayed pretty far from the OP. Are we done?

Thu, 2011-03-10 19:13

#108

Boom Boom

As far as I know most christian churches have Thanksgiving services every year - I go to Anglican services of Thanksgiving every year, and both of our prayer books - the old BCP and the newer BAS have prayers and readings for either Thanksgiving or Harvest Thanksgiving. We have a tradition of bringing in samples from the harvest that we give to the parish Incumbent on that day, and also to decorate the church. In larger churches the harvest gifts go to local food banks or the parish breadbasket which goes to people who ask the church directly for food support.

Thu, 2011-03-10 19:15

#109

Frmrsldr

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

What other world faith/spirituality does the thanksgiving that Americans and Canadians observe originate from?

Well North American native, for one. And French Roman Catholic, whom you might consider the same faith as Puritans, but I doubt any of them would have seen it that way back in the day. And although Champlain was Catholic, they actually started it to keep their spirits up through thewinter, not play with rosaries.

And the original New England feast was also inspired by a similar feast to celebrate the survival from a seige , and of course, to celebrate a massacre:

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/2009/cooking-the-history-books-the-than...

Yup, sounds like christmas to me.

Now this little pedantic diversion has strayed pretty far from the OP. Are we done?

The first thanksgiving observance was in Spanish Florida.

Later it was observed in British North America (Canada), Virginia and finally Plymouth/Massachussetts colonies.

Given the devoutness of the time, where do you think the name "thanksgiving" comes from?

Hint: Who or what do you think they were "giving thanks" to? It certainly wasn't to their own prowess or some secular idea about "fortune."

This secular interpretation of thanksgiving is recent historical revisionism.

The Native communities of the Americas also had spiritual beliefs. They were not atheist societies.

Thu, 2011-03-10 19:30

#110

George Victor

"Harper Conservatives: a party of thugs, liars, cheats, crooks, dirty tricksters - and (some kinda) Christian." Malcolm put his finger on the identifying rhetoric defending Harper earlier: "Not sure where Political Nick is coming from, but most of what he's written so far seems to be of the same individual sovreignty constitutionalism espoused by the Tea Party."

Exactly!

Fri, 2011-03-11 00:36

#111

Malcolm

Fmrsldr, its all very nice that you read a Wikipedia article. It hardly makes you an expert on the various religious factions in England and her colonies in the 17th century.

Now, I'll grant that I could have been clearer. Try this.

IN MOST OF THE COLONIES WHERE VARIOUS FORMS OF DISSENTING PROTESTANTISM WERE ESTABLISHED (EITHER DE JURE OR DE FACTO) THE CELEBRATION OF CHRISTMAS WAS BANNED.

Clear enough for you?

Now, Maine was settled by dissenting protestants in 1622. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Plymouth Colony was settled by dissenting protestants in 1620. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Massachusetts Bay Colony was established by dissenting protestants in 1630. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Saybrook Colony was established in1635. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Connecticut Colony was established in 1636. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

The Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was established in 1636. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the estabnlishment of the Protectorate (1653).

New Haven Colony was established in 1637. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653). After the Restoration, New Haven Colony harboured several of the "regicide judges" who had signed the death warrant of Charles I.

IN THOSE COLONIES ESTABLISHED BY DISSENTING PROTESTANTS, THE CELEBRATION OF CHRISTMAS WAS GENERALLY BANNED.

Maryland was founded by Roman Catholics and Pennsylvania by Quakers. In the remaining colonies, the Church of England was legally or de facto the established.

Thanksgiving is neither here nor there. The fact that it was celebrated in many of the colonies established by dissenting protestants does not change the fact that DISSENTING PROTESTANTS BANNED CHRISTMAS.

So, to any one with a lick of sense, it is ironic that the spiritual descendents of those dissenting protestants are trying to make an issue of the supposed "war on Christmas," since their spiritual ancestors had (in almost all cases) attempted to ban the celebration of Christmas when they had the power to do so, both in the American colonies and in England.

Now, this is all an interesting argument over a sidebar comment on the thread, but if you want to pretend to expertise you don't have, Fmrsldr, you'll have to do better than reading a Wikipedia article.

Fri, 2011-03-11 02:15

#112

Frmrsldr

Malcolm wrote:

IN MOST OF THE COLONIES WHERE VARIOUS FORMS OF DISSENTING PROTESTANTISM WERE ESTABLISHED (EITHER DE JURE OR DE FACTO) THE CELEBRATION OF CHRISTMAS WAS BANNED.

Clear enough for you?

I'm fine with that.

I didn't argue against that in the first place.

That's not however, what you originally wrote. If you go back and read it again you will see that's neither its original meaning nor intent.

Malcolm wrote:

Now, Maine was settled by dissenting protestants in 1622. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Plymouth Colony was settled by dissenting protestants in 1620. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Massachusetts Bay Colony was established by dissenting protestants in 1630. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Saybrook Colony was established in1635. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

Connecticut Colony was established in 1636. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653).

The Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was established in 1636. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the estabnlishment of the Protectorate (1653).

New Haven Colony was established in 1637. That would be well before the English Civil War (begins 1642), the rise of Cromwell (roughly 1648) and the establishment of the Protectorate (1653). After the Restoration, New Haven Colony harboured several of the "regicide judges" who had signed the death warrant of Charles I.

Now, this is all an interesting argument over a sidebar comment on the thread, but if you want to pretend to expertise you don't have, Fmrsldr,...

First about Maine: Maine is not, nor ever was, a New England colony/state. It never even was a "colony" in its own right. Maine, until it gained statehood in 1820, was a "province" of and was governed by, Massachussetts.

Yeah, no kidding the New England colonies (and the "province" of Maine) were established and had protestant (some puritan) migrants who went there prior to the English Civil War and the Cromwell Era, O learned historian. Where do I argue otherwise?

Again however, you fail to address my criticism. You write as if migration to New England by puritans and (other) protestants from England and the English Civil War and Cromwell Era, were set times in history. This is false. The Cromwell Era was a set time in history. It had a clear beginning and a clear end. Migration to New England by puritan protestants from England didn't end just before the English Civil War. It continued during the English Civil War and Cromwell Era and continues to this day - the equivallent of "puritan" christian would be the "fundamentalist" christian of today.

Understand the difference?

My advice, don't join a political debator's club/society, as your ability to express yourself clearly and your logical and rhetorical skills simply don't cut it.

As for that other rambling hodge-podge about what hypocrites "fundy" evangelist right wing christians are, that's not very difficult. Another good example was Jimmy Baker moralizing about family values nationally on tv and then being "caught" soliciting the services of a prostitute.

Indeed this is an interesting if sidebar argument over a sidebar comment in a sidebar thread that was opened due to a sidebar issue. It's a sidebar issue because it's based on a misunderstanding of an article originally posted on rabble.

Fri, 2011-03-11 09:09

#113

George Victor

As long as there is agreement that it is the " 'fundy' evangelist right wing christians" that are at fault, and that my childhood Christmases were not a transgression in the time spent longing for a new piece of fishing equipment...

Fri, 2011-03-11 09:28

#114

6079_Smith_W

...and just so long as they don't try to ban the religious observances that are closest to my aunt's heart - bake sales and bingo.

(seeing as everything that happens in a church is a mass)

Fri, 2011-03-11 09:58

#115

Malcolm

Fmrsldr, I have no idea what your issue is here, but you may want to go back and read your initial intervention to discover that you did, in fact, argue many of those things.

My advice is that you don't try to debate matter where you manifestly have very limited knowledge, that you not make bald assertions of facts where you don't actually know the facts, and that you not use your own confusion as a pretext for snippy personal attacks.

Fri, 2011-03-11 10:17

#116

MegB

Closed for length.

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