In 1980, a song I wrote, Another Brick in the Wall Part 2, was banned by the government of South Africa because it was being used by black South African children to advocate their right to equal education. That apartheid government imposed a cultural blockade, so to speak, on certain songs, including mine.
Twenty-five years later, in 2005, Palestinian children participating in a West Bank festival used the song to protest against Israel's wall around the West Bank. They sang: "We don't need no occupation! We don't need no racist wall!" At the time, I hadn't seen firsthand what they were singing about.
A year later I was contracted to perform in Tel Aviv. Palestinians from a movement advocating an academic and cultural boycott of Israel urged me to reconsider. I had already spoken out against the wall, but I was unsure whether a cultural boycott was the right way to go.
The Palestinian advocates of a boycott asked that I visit the occupied Palestinian territory to see the wall for myself before I made up my mind. I agreed.
Under the protection of the United Nations I visited Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Nothing could have prepared me for what I saw that day. The wall is an appalling edifice to behold. It is policed by young Israeli soldiers who treated me, a casual observer from another world, with disdainful aggression.
If it could be like that for me, a foreigner, a visitor, imagine what it must be like for the Palestinians, for the underclass, for the passbook carriers. I knew then that my conscience would not allow me to walk away from that wall, from the fate of the Palestinians I met: people whose lives are crushed daily by Israel's occupation. In solidarity, and somewhat impotently, I wrote on their wall that day: "We don't need no thought control."
Realising at that point that my presence on a Tel Aviv stage would inadvertently legitimise the oppression I had seen, I cancelled my gig at the stadium in Tel Aviv and moved it to Neve Shalom, an agricultural community devoted to growing chick peas and also, admirably, to co-operation between different faiths, where Muslim, Christian and Jew work side by side in harmony.
Against all expectations it was to become the biggest music event in the short history of Israel. Some 60,000 fans battled traffic jams to attend. It was extraordinarily moving for us, and at the end of the gig I was moved to exhort the young people gathered there to demand of their government that they attempt to make peace with their neighbours and respect the civil rights of Palestinians living in Israel.
Sadly, in the intervening years the Israeli government has made no attempt to implement legislation that would grant rights to Israeli Arabs equal to those enjoyed by Israeli Jews, and the wall has grown, inexorably, illegally annexing more and more of the West Bank.
For the people of Gaza, locked in a virtual prison behind the wall of Israel's illegal blockade, it means another set of injustices. It means that children go to sleep hungry, many chronically malnourished. It means that fathers and mothers, unable to work in a decimated economy, have no means to support their families. It means that university students with scholarships to study abroad must watch the opportunity of a lifetime slip away because they are not allowed to travel.
In my view, the abhorrent and draconian control that Israel wields over the besieged Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in the occupied West Bank (including East Jerusalem), coupled with its denial of the rights of refugees to return to their homes in Israel, demands that fair-minded people around the world support the Palestinians in their civil, nonviolent resistance.
Where governments refuse to act people must, with whatever peaceful means are at their disposal. For me this means declaring an intention to stand in solidarity, not only with the people of Palestine but also with the many thousands of Israelis who disagree with their government's policies, by joining the campaign of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against Israel.
My conviction is born in the idea that all people deserve basic human rights. This is not an attack on the people of Israel. This is, however, a plea to my colleagues in the music industry, and also to artists in other disciplines, to join this cultural boycott.
Artists were right to refuse to play in South Africa's Sun City resort until apartheid fell and white people and black people enjoyed equal rights. And we are right to refuse to play in Israel until the day comes – and it surely will come – when the wall of occupation falls and Palestinians live alongside Israelis in the peace, freedom, justice and dignity that they all deserve.
Roger Waters calls for no more bricks in the (West Bank) wall
Given that a family of 5 (including a 4 month old baby girl) in the West Bank were stabbed to death in their sleep during the Jewish Sabbath, the wall is making more sense to me. I've been there and I hated looking at the thing. But as long as there are people willing to stab babies to death, the Israeli people deserve to have some degree of security to prevent atrocities like this from occuring.
yeah..
And the Israeli army never killed babies,eh?
The Press in Israel blamed 'The Palestinians" ?? What, All of Them?!
(If somebody committs a murder or home invasion here, we do not tar everyone of that race or ethnicity with the crime. It could have been a crazy neighbour, or a random psychopath of any group or origin.)
The Press in Israel blamed 'The Palestinians" ?? What, All of Them?!
(If somebody committs a murder or home invasion here, we do not tar everyone of that race or ethnicity with the crime. It could have been a crazy neighbour, or a random psychopath of any group or origin.)
That was going to be my next arguement,Hellebor.
The Israeli apologists rationality is certifiable.
yeah..
And the Israeli army never killed babies,eh?
The shirt is disgusting. But I think any rational person can see a difference between making an offensive t-shirt and actually taking a knife and using it to stab a 4 month old baby while she sleeps in her father's arms. It takes a sickness I can't even fathom to be able to actually do that.
(If somebody committs a murder or home invasion here, we do not tar everyone of that race or ethnicity with the crime. It could have been a crazy neighbour, or a random psychopath of any group or origin.)
No, but if they applauded it and passed out candy and baked goods to celebrate it (the opening post talks about kids going hungry but it seems there were sweets to distribute to celebrate the butchering of the family), we'd be rightly appalled.
As we should be appalled by this:
[quote]Hours after the killings the Israeli government approved construction of 500 new homes for Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
Can someone please explain how a thread about artists protesting the continued fighting over Israel/Palestine turned into a debate on killing babies refencing only 1 instance.
Bad things done by many people on both sides of the fight. I don't condone any of it.
Can someone please explain how a thread about artists protesting ...
That should read as "artists participating in the BDS campaign against the Israeli apartheid regime ..." etc. Anyway, it's just trolling by zionists and/or racists. It's common on babble when the BDS campaign is in the news, events exposing Israeli war crimes and atrocities take place, and so on. Take no notice. Flag the offending post and relax as the offender is sent to digital hell. Popcorn is good too.
Whenever a prominent musician or public figure distances themselves from the horrific racist regime in Israel, the apologists get worked up into a frenzy. Think of the Martians in "Mars Attacks" as they hear country music. yup.
Poems, everybody. The laddie reckons himself a poet!
Everyone should read this open letter http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041263,00.html
"Moment of truth for leftists"
Given that family were in the WEST BANK, not Israel proper, the wall wouldn't have saved them.Given that a family of 5 (including a 4 month old baby girl) in the West Bank were stabbed to death in their sleep during the Jewish Sabbath, the wall is making more sense to me. I've been there and I hated looking at the thing. But as long as there are people willing to stab babies to death, the Israeli people deserve to have some degree of security to prevent atrocities like this from occuring.
BTW...whoever DID kill that family...not cool...never cool to kill kids...ok?
Ya we're not advocating the killing of babies, children, or anyone else. I think sometimes it's necessary to make certain things crystal clear. Killing not cool.
WALLS not cool either. Mister Netanyahu, tear down this wall!
Even though I have only been on here for a short time and have just started to get to know individual poster's positions on a variety of subjects I would in no way ever consider anyone else to be promoting or condoning killing babies and children. I just thought the topic was drifting away from the initial post.
Everyone should read this open letter http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041263,00.html
"Moment of truth for leftists"
What a piece of drivel.
I challenge you to find anyone here who champions the killing of children.
I am going to go back to an earlier arguement by a poster above.
If somewhere in this city someone was to murder a family and happened to be of a specific race,language,colour,religion,whatever...I would go after the CULPRITS and not attack and persecute and murder everyone of that particular race,colour,religion,etc...
That's not what a democracy does.
Furthermore,the killing of Palestinian children happens all the time as the Israeli government has a habit of targeting hospitals,schools and residential areas.
Where's your tears?...Yeah,didn't think so.
And if we were to follow Israel's example,I guess we'd also have to exterminate all the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Just like the Israeli occupation,those wars are illegal and children get killed but something tells me you own a 'Support Our Troops' coffee mug.
Your rationality is more than laughable.
With you on that, Fidel. Have a nice Sunday!Ya we're not advocating the killing of babies, children, or anyone else. I think sometimes it's necessary to make certain things crystal clear. Killing not cool.
WALLS not cool either. Mister Netanyahu, tear down this wall!
Dodger, babble is not the place for Israeli apologia and disgusting smears part of the international anti-Palestinian propoganda campaign. Furthermore, the inference that babble supports the murdering of babies is beyond the pale. I think you know this, and your "contribution," such as it was, was made in bad faith. I am giving you one more chance, however. You are suspended for three days for your disgusting comment, and if you choose to return, any more comments along that vein will not be tolerated. I hope that's clear.
Thanks, catchfire.
Good for Mr. Waters!
[quote=Catchfire]
Dodger, babble is not the place for Israeli apologia and disgusting smears part of the international anti-Palestinian propoganda campaign. Furthermore, the inference that babble supports the murdering of babies is beyond the pale. I think you know this, and your "contribution," such as it was, was made in bad faith. I am giving you one more chance, however. You are suspended for three days for your disgusting comment, and if you choose to return, any more comments along that vein will not be tolerated. I hope that's clear.
No...but I'm starting to think that your only allowed to think one way on this site. Any other line of thought is irrelevant.
Smithee...the Israelis do not deliberately and with MALICE kill women and babies, but hey whatever you want to believe.
Your friendly neighbourhood troll.
OK...
VectoV sent me a personal message.
'Better I be a troll than a JERK OFF like you'
Get rid of this fuckface before threads turn into hot beds of insults.
Next mesage I get from this cocksucker,I'm going to get very angry.
I shouldn't have to.
Thanks.
Now who is being rude here. Really. You started with the insults in public, insinuating that I should get back to masturbating in front of my computer because you didn't like what I had to say. I replied in private, and here you are going way overboard again in public. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR CRAP! Who the hell do you think you are? I know for a fact if we we're standing face to face you wouldn't be saying this crap.
Are the bacon fumes getting to your head? I have never used the language that you have just used in a public forum...ever.
"bacon fumes"?
Like David Steinberg once said, "Pork makes you stupid."
John Lydon, the guy who once wore a "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt, performed in the Zionist entity, while the Pink Floyd guy refuses to.
Hmmm....
I'm going overboard?
You know what,troll?
I don't care...My mistake was feeding the troll.
I'll let the Mods take care of you.
Ciao.
Yeah Ken, he's a chef. Not to worry Smithee, the mods are already on it.
Dude..
Let me tell you something.
Little people like yourself who troll political forums just to stir shit up do so because in their normal lives they don't have the balls to take someone on face to face.
Hence,you're a coward.
You also probably equate the 'left' with a bunch of granola eating tree hugging hippies who like to sit around campfires singing Kum Bai Ya...Am I right?
Thing is,V...In the real world,on the street you'd never have the balls to call me a jerk off or try to attack me.
And if you actually were foolish enough to try you'd find out that not all of us on the left are dyed in the wool pacifists.
I'm not going to feed you anymore..You want to attack me,be a man and come try it to my face.
Or shut the hell up.
[url=http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2011/03/2011331354479176... Jazeera's Riz Khan interviews Roger Waters[/color][/url]
YAWN YAWN YAWN
I'm not attacking you !! Your outta control. I'm attacking now though.
I'm starting to think your actually a 12.50 an hour short order cook who's big event for the year will be nailing the new waitress on the afternoon shift. Your a pissed off person, your pissed off with your life and Gawd help anyone who crosses you! I won't even reply to the the whole "on the street, physical thing" 'cause that's just too funny!
Thanks for that awesome link,Ripple.
I'm not attacking you !! Your outta control. I'm attacking now though.
I'm starting to think your actually a 12.50 an hour short order cook who's big event for the year will be nailing the new waitress on the afternoon shift. Your a pissed off person, your pissed off with your life and Gawd help anyone who crosses you! I won't even reply to the the whole "on the street, physical thing" 'cause that's just too funny!
$12.50/hr short order cook..Fuck you.
Seriously..I'm pissed at the world?
COULD YOU PLEEEEASE TALK ABOUT SOMETHING RELEVANT?!
Do you have an a good arguement to prove people like myself wrong on the TOPIC?!
Probably not because you're a fuckin' troll.
Stick with the topic,make coherent arguements or contribute to the thread..
OR FUCK OFF!...Alright?
Yikes; that hook's in deep.
Feels like a pin prick to me. I have been contributing to the thread and other threads and yes it is a contrarian view, but it is also a view that I have put a lot of thought into over the years and that is just the way it is. As soon as I expressed those opinions, you went nutso and you got personal. I knew the short order thing would get you. LOL
Where are the mods?
I got a prediction for you,waterbrain.
Some time tonight you'll be banned...I'm amazed you haven't been yet.
You admit that you are here just to stir shit up.
Oh yeah..You've been contributing.. 'YAWN YAWN YAWN'
How old are you?
As I said,tough guy behind his computer.
You're mentally and physically hung like a mosquito.
Keep it up,fuckhead.
Look Vecto, on behalf of those of us not involved in this sparring match...can you please just STOP already?
Look Vecto, on behalf of those of us not involved in this sparring match...can you please just STOP already?
Yes, but that goes for AlanSmithee also. I don't know why you think your responses are at all appropriate or you should be immune from the policies here.
Cripes. I do not have the time to clean up this shit flinging contest. Here: you win one 24-hour suspension each. alan, this is NOT how you deal with someone you think is a troll. Regardless of your thoughts about VectoV, you have made it impossible for Rebecca or me to moderate this situation. You get 24 hours off to cool down. In the future, just flag and walk away. Don't disrupt an entire thread for all particpants.
VectoV, alan has made it difficult for me to approach this the way I'd like, but I haven't been impressed by the various ways you have shown disdain for this forum. Respect the mandate and culture of this place, or you will be asked to leave. I don't hold out hope for you, but if you want to become a contributing member of this community, you need to adjust your approach.
Because Vecto, from what I've seen, is the one who took this out of the realm of debate into the realm of personal abuse. He provoked smithee.
(And I apologize for shadow-moderating, but no actual mods seem to be in this thread today). Nothing Smithee posted merited Vecto's abuse.
I'd like to thank Smithee for starting this thread as I didn't know about Waters' activities. Now what's that buzzing sound? lol
It now appears that VectoV HAS been banned.
Careful with that axe, Eugene.
Well I hope this experience has toughened alan's hide and taught him to better deal with trolls and other creatures of the forest.
Everyone should read this open letter http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041263,00.html
"Moment of truth for leftists"
What a piece of drivel.
I challenge you to find anyone here who champions the killing of children.
I am going to go back to an earlier arguement by a poster above.
If somewhere in this city someone was to murder a family and happened to be of a specific race,language,colour,religion,whatever...I would go after the CULPRITS and not attack and persecute and murder everyone of that particular race,colour,religion,etc...
That's not what a democracy does.
Furthermore,the killing of Palestinian children happens all the time as the Israeli government has a habit of targeting hospitals,schools and residential areas.
Where's your tears?...Yeah,didn't think so.
And if we were to follow Israel's example,I guess we'd also have to exterminate all the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Just like the Israeli occupation,those wars are illegal and children get killed but something tells me you own a 'Support Our Troops' coffee mug.
Your rationality is more than laughable.
I don't understand this response. Yes the article is insulting to leftists so it needs to be taken with a big box of salt, but the thrust seems to be that the wall protects Israeli citizens from being killed by invaders from the other side.
quote from the offending article "Let's put ideology aside for a moment and only talk numbers. Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers. My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred."
No-one is accusing anyone of championing the killing of children so why raise that question? And what inference is being applied to conclude Israel's building of a wall sets an "example" that requires the extermination of "all the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan" whatever that might mean.
And so what if someone owns a "Support Our Troops Mug" Even Jack Layton supports the troops.
This post is a non- response to the article. The response that is needed is a counter to the assertion that Israel needs the wall to protects its people. I don't know the answer to that but this response by Smithee only fuels a flame war and helps to re-inforce the claims of the article by not addressing them.
I checked in here expecting a better discussion. Has anyone got an answer for the article?
Or should it simply be dismissed out of hand, as its written by someone who obviously has no use for leftists and might just be making it all up or fudging facts.
Is spring, like, birthing season for trolls or something? It smells like arse around here suddenly.
Thread drift ... how's about we return to our regularly scheduled programing, eh?
Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers. My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred.
Allow me to be generous and assume you are not a troll, but rather, ignorant of the facts.
The Wall that you defend represents a massive theft of Palestinian farmlands (some of the best), and more importantly, the majority of water resources in a desert land. It is group punishment and continuous torture of the Palestinians trapped in this arid detention camp.
To call it apartheid actually minimizes its horror, as no Bantustan was so sterile and unforgiving.
Have the killers been caught, or is it sufficient that all Palestinians suffer collectively once again?
In most murder investigations, isn't it common to ask who stood to profit?
Thread drift.
I want to apologize to babble and everyone that were exposed to a pissing contest I was involved in.
I said alot of things that are not acceptable here or anywhere else,really.
The 24 hours did me alot of good.
I'd like to say that the other person involved got me flying in a rage the minute he PM'd me to call me a name and it just escalated from there.
Very childish..and the only thing I regret more,is this person's objective was fulfilled and I'm sure he felt good about himself.
End thread drift.
LTJ...That's an excellent point that I've been bringing up with other people rationalizing Israel's oppression.
Imagine this crime occuring here (as it HAS happened) and the culprits were of a visible minority or of a certain religion.
Could you imagine this country using its power to persecute and sending in the Army to murder EVERYONE of that particular race or religion?
I'm confident that a majority of the populous would be mortified by such a racist and extemist slaughter..Slaughter being the key word which is NEVER used when the victims are Palestinians.
There are so many holes in the zionist Israeli apoligist rationality,I don't even know where to begin or end.
Way to 'man-up' Alan. Thank-you