@Boom Boom:
Great comment!
STOP HARPER
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:12
#102
Arthur Cramer
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:13
#103
Boom Boom
from Rabble.ca: Council of Canadians applauds Brigette DePape
excerpt:
The Council of Canadians dismisses the criticisms by a Liberal senator and Conservative minister Peter Kent that this action was 'a breach of protocol' and a 'breach of security'. In fact, a CBC on-line poll shows that 58 per cent of respondents believe that her action was 'appropriate'.
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:16
#104
Yes, but I think it is appropriate only because it is a one-off. It would be an entirely different story if interest groups were lining up for floor space at the next throne speech and clogging the aisles with banners.
There is no way this could be allowed as a normal state of affairs, nor should it be.
Plus if it were, it would no longer be effective.
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:31
#105
Boom Boom
Doc maker Michael Moore backs protesting page for "Stop Harper" stunt
By Benjamin Shingler, The Canadian Press – 52 minutes ago
A high-profile American activist has become a cheerleader of the Senate page who lost her job for her stunning protest against Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Michael Moore has posted a giant photo on his website of 21-year-old Brigette DePape holding up a "Stop Harper" sign in the Senate chamber during Friday's throne speech.
Moore has also shared a link to a news story describing DePape's stunt, calling for U.S. students to "take note."
In an interview Sunday, DePape told The Canadian Press she's excited her protest has attracted attention from a high-profile activist like Moore.
The University of Ottawa graduate was fired from her job for the move and was criticized by many Parliamentarians who suggested it was disrespectful.
But DePape said she has no regrets about the incident and remains convinced the best way to stop the Harper government is through protests like the one she staged.
"I really think it's only through inappropriate action that you can challenge the status quo and have real change," she said, adding that she's been overwhelmed by positive feedback from Canadians
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:40
#106
Yes, but I think it is appropriate only because it is a one-off. It would be an entirely different story if interest groups were lining up for floor space at the next throne speech and clogging the aisles with banners.
I'm trying to believe you're still carrying on with this line of attack.
Imagine if every citizen exercised their freedom of speech, assembly, the press, association, worship, etc. at the same time! Why, it would be perfectly un-British! Couldn't have that, good gracious!
Those Arabs should have stopped after one demo, too. Made their point, didn't they?
You see, 6079, you're not gonna like what I say now, but I'll say it anyway.
For me, this is about having the courage to STOP HARPER - even though millions of Canadians voted for him. This is [b]NOT[/b] about dissecting which forms of protest are gentlemanly and which are not.
If workers rampage through the street demanding the expropriation of the capital, I will likely support that. If employers rampage demanding that workers' rights be abolished, I will oppose that. I will not waste time and breath debating the form of protest.
After all, no windows were broken, and no one got injured. So I suggest you save your distaste for when things really get nasty. Because, inevitably, sooner or later, they will.
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:45
#107
Boom Boom
Mallick: Rebel page is the real thing
Hail to thee, blithe spirit! Toady thou never wert.
The skylark in question is that bright-eyed and braided young page, Brigette DePape, 21, whose mother is proud of her, as am I, as are thousands of Canadian young people who put idealism before an intern-type job that leads to fancy well-paid things if you’re willing to shut up.
The central question of life is “Do you go along to get along?” Ralph Nader once told me and a thousand other University of Toronto students at Convocation Hall. Decades later, most of us of course do. DePape does not.
She is the real thing, the Canadian version of the child in the fable pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
I love it!!!
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:54
#108
honourable cowards
Incredible lack of understanding of the level of understanding, the popular political culture out there in TV land. Tommy Douglas called it the way it was during the War Measures "debate". It cost the party more than half of its union membership. But what the hell . That was then, eh? There has been such a buildup of revolutionary fervour out there on mainstreet since then.
Some revolutionary language from union ranks would be a good start. But I'm afraid we are going to be limited to the brave Brigettes for the time being. Gaia be with her in her concern for the environment...
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:54
#109
I dunno, if Ms. DePape were packaged and promoted as a rebellious Ferris Bueller type, her message might be well received by the Dorito herd.
Sun, 2011-06-05 15:57
#110
Arthur Cramer
You know, if there is one thing I can't stand more is being lectured by some Libetarian Civy, who has never served about honour, and my lack of understanding of it. I was on another blog going back and forth with a couple of Ayn Rand inspired Libetarians who attacked DePape for her lack of honour and when I rose in her defense, I got told I knew nothing about honour, serivce, or courage, and that I was dishonoring both myself and the service.
This is just a vent "with my friends", but I have to say, what a crock! I hate these guys!
Sun, 2011-06-05 16:28
#111
Boom Boom
Here's the link, but it doesn't include the full comment by Layton - I'll post it when I find it.
"...Opposition leader Jack Layton called her actions "wrong" earlier on that same program, while Immigration Minister Jason Kenney has dismissed DePape as a "lefty kook."
Sun, 2011-06-05 16:40
#112
Layton has painted himself into a bit of a corner with his ceaseless talk of restoring decorum to the House. To most ears, it sounds like "we'll be nice," so as soon as the NDP turns aggressive - which needs to happen this week - fingers will be pointing and much laughter will ensue about how "that didn't take long."
Brigette Depape, meanwhile, brought more quiet dignity to the Upper Chamber than the Upper Chamber deserves.
I wish Jack would have said that, because I believe Canadians are more courageous than the political class and ready to respond warmly to acts of conscience. Maturity doesn't mean tepidity, and the NDP won't reach government by demonstrations of moral cowardice now.
Sun, 2011-06-05 16:55
#113
I agree Boom Boom but you know that the MSM would have diced his reply and just played over and over "one that we support"!
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!I wish Layton had said, instead, "...she had an important message, one that we support, even though the forum - the Senate during the Throne Speech - was not the most appropriate".
ETA: I think the NDP needs to embrace this young woman, rather than condemn her action.
Sun, 2011-06-05 16:58
#114
Brigette Depape, meanwhile, brought more quiet dignity to the Upper Chamber than the Upper Chamber deserves.
And, I must add, democracy.
Why should we respect an institution of unelected party hacks, partisan pundits and bagmen? Why can't a leader of a party committed to its abolition comment on that?
Sun, 2011-06-05 17:21
#115
Boom Boom
She was actually interviewed on QP right after Layton, and, I must say, she is extremely well-spoken. Doesn't belong to any political party, and believes democracy happens on a daily basis, and we need to be involved.
Layton, by the way, had a good interview on QP as well - discussed hockey, then came down really hard on Harper's budget.
But, I was really turned off when Layton said the protest was wrong, because he is pushing for better decorum - and holding signs up works against that. He said he encourages protests at a proper time and place. He sounded like my dad fifty years ago.
Sun, 2011-06-05 17:44
#116
Anyway, you have Harper, Rae, Layton, and May on one side - the champions of what is "appropriate" - and you have one young woman, Brigette DePape, who is more courageous and principled than they can fathom - who represents the finest the Canadian people have to offer.
Speaking of which, about 56% of almost 8,000 CBC.ca poll respondents have replied "YES" to the question: "Page protest: Was it appropriate?" That's a better percentage than any of these honourable cowards managed in the election.
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2011/06/page-protest-was-it-appropr... cast your ballot.[/url]
Both Layton and Harper received more than 60% of the vote. Of course if you are referring to percentage of eligible voters than is a different story.
Sun, 2011-06-05 18:12
#117
Unionist, did you not read the number of times (probably four already) I said I have no problem with what she did, given the context?
That doesn't change the fact that it would be a completey different situation if it became common practice for members of the house or the public to just ignore the rules, refuse to listen to the speaker and interrupt debate because they were "right".
And I think the tactic would lose its effectiveness pretty damn fast.
Again, we would not be having the same discussion if was an anti-choice protest.
(edit)
And I am quite aware what the message was. You can go back and read my first three posts if you want to know what I think about that.
Sun, 2011-06-05 18:38
#118
So, where can I get a STOP HARPER button? so I can wear it until the next election!
Sun, 2011-06-05 18:48
#119
Boom Boom
Ms. DePape has really ignited politics - on CTV's QP today someone (I think Craig Oliver) said people all across the country are talking about this, and she has phenomenal support from all corners of the country. I guess because the show aired at 11am, they hadn't got the news yet that American film maker Michael Moore has also come out in support of her.
I am frankly upset because none of our political parties so far has embraced her protest, but I haven't heard from the BQ yet.
Sun, 2011-06-05 19:00
#120
Boom Boom
Michael Moore: Canada Gets Warmer
Best Contempt of Parliament Ever! Speaker of Canadian Senate holds DePape in "Contempt of Parliament" – the same thing Stephen Harper's government was charged with for lying to and concealing information from parliament
Sun, 2011-06-05 19:03
#121
Unionist, did you not read the number of times (probably four already) I said I have no problem with what she did, given the context?
But why then are you focusing on the form of the protest? Of course I understand that you have no problem with "STOP HARPER".
That doesn't change the fact that it would be a completey different situation if it became common practice for members of the house or the public to just ignore the rules, refuse to listen to the speaker and interrupt debate because they were "right".
No one has suggested it should become "common practice". Not even Brigette DePape. She simply did it, and it was incredibly overwhelmingly effective.
And I think the tactic would lose its effectiveness pretty damn fast.
Then we change tactics. What's the big deal here? The entire weight of the MSM and the political parties is trying to crush this woman because she was disrespectful of the solemnity of some utter bullshit or other - or, that she allegedly violated the sacred trust of her page's position. What, exactly, is stopping us progressive people from cheering and applauding her action, [b]absolutely unconditionally[/b], and warning our enemies that they can always expect the unexpected from here on in?
Should we really refrain from civil disobedience and guerrilla theatre because we're afraid that the anti-abortion crowd will use it, and then we'll be oh so conflicted that we won't know what to say?
When the anti-abortion crowd uses polite, lawful, respectful means to argue their point, I still call them women-hating monsters who should be shouted down and hurled out of any decent place where people gather.
Content, my friend, must be primary.
Again, we would not be having the same discussion if was an anti-choice protest.
Precisely - and I invite you to reflect on the significance of that truth. Is it hypocrisy - or profound consistency?
Sun, 2011-06-05 19:19
#122
@ Unionist
I think you'll have to clarify exactly what problem you have with what I have said.
I don't have a problem with her protest.
THough I should say, content is not always primary. If it is allowable for one party to do something, then it is allowable for all parties to do so. That is why I understand why members of the house, and party leaders in particular, can't really be seen to sanction this sort of protest, even if they might agree.
Can't have it both ways, after all.
And I'm sorry..... it's not up to me to offer absolutely unconditional suppport to anything.
Sun, 2011-06-05 19:28
#123
Precisely - and I invite you to reflect on the significance of that truth. Is it hypocrisy - or profound consistency?
Take that logic to its ultimate and you seem to be saying that what we feel to be right trumps all rules of order and all laws. And while I agree with you that it applies in some circumstances, it is impossible to function that way on an ongiong basis.
Sun, 2011-06-05 20:00
#124
Northern Shoveler
THough I should say, content is not always primary. If it is allowable for one party to do something, then it is allowable for all parties to do so. That is why I understand why members of the house, and party leaders in particular, can't really be seen to sanction this sort of protest, even if they might agree.
Can't have it both ways, after all.
This citizen had an effect protest against our government. Now if the NDP had held up signs that would be inappropriate. She is not a party she is a citizen. So context is not primary and the distinction between peaceful protest and violence is also not a clear line.
Layton basically agreed with the G8/G20 view of protest. Go to the pen in the corner over there where you will not get in the way of the important people who decide your future. No protests in the Senate and uranium tipped munitions for LIbya.
Great start to having a "left" wing party as the Official Opposition. I hope the peasants realize that Jack knows what is good for them and he and his party alone will lead us to a brave new world. any other voices should just Shut the Fuck UP.
Sun, 2011-06-05 20:12
#125
Boom Boom
Great post, NS - DePape is showing the NDP how to be effective at protest, even if Layton himself came across as a damp dishrag.
Sun, 2011-06-05 20:37
#126
Boom Boom
Now she's made the Huffington Post!
Sun, 2011-06-05 20:47
#127
If it is allowable for one party to do something, then it is allowable for all parties to do so.
We're not even in the same debating forum. I couldn't care less whether it is "allowable" or not. I am not defending her right to do what she did. That's not the issue. The issue is that [b]she did it[/b]. That's what workers, women, farmers, racialized people, indigenous people, youth, colonized peoples - everyone who is oppressed - have always done. They have simply stood up, spoken their minds, and fought back. Who gives a damn whether or not it was "allowable"?
Sun, 2011-06-05 20:58
#128
This citizen had an effect protest against our government. Now if the NDP had held up signs that would be inappropriate. She is not a party she is a citizen.
I am glad we agree on this because that was exactly my point - that while you or I are free to say what she did was appropriate, the leader of the opposition or the speaker of the house do not have the freedom to come out and say the same thing. Even if personally they might have agreed with what she had to say, they are bound to respect the rules of the house to a greater degree than we are.
That is the main reason why I think her tactic is significant. I don't think I have suggested once here that anyone should be quiet, sit in a corner and do nothing, nor have I suggested that DePape should not have done what she did.
I do think all the attention and wave of protest on the part of the people is about 33 days late, though.
(edit)
And Unionist.
I am in complete agreement with you. Go back and show me where I have said otherwise. In fact, go back and read the first sentence in post 29.
Though thinking about it again, if Layton had come out in support of her protest I think it would have been a foolish waste of his political capital and made him look like an amateur.
Sun, 2011-06-05 21:37
#129
I protested both before and after the election.
Sun, 2011-06-05 22:09
#130
Northern Shoveler
This citizen had an effect protest against our government. Now if the NDP had held up signs that would be inappropriate. She is not a party she is a citizen.
I am glad we agree on this because that was exactly my point - that while you or I are free to say what she did was appropriate, the leader of the opposition or the speaker of the house do not have the freedom to come out and say the same thing. Even if personally they might have agreed with what she had to say, they are bound to respect the rules of the house to a greater degree than we are.
My point was that Jack should have said I admire the young woman's courage not she did something inappropriate. He is turning into a nice polite doff your cap kind of guy. He needs to support young people in protest against the shit they are living under not tell them to take it somewhere else. He had the freedom to support her and he chose to be a jerk. We need politicians with courage not nice guys who can't tell the difference between right and left.
If no protests in the Senate with its bloated members like Mike Duffy then where. Fuck Mike Duffy's sensibilities and fuck Jack's attitude that Mike is more importatn than Bridgette.
Sun, 2011-06-05 22:22
#131
And let's suppose he threw his support behind her. I am wondering when those words would come back to bite him in the ass -
Right away, when someone reminds him that he acknowledged that the people of Canada gave Harper a majority and said that he would work to improve the tone of debate and productivity in the house?
Or the first time he objects to something unfair on the part of the government and someone has to remind him that he was the one who stated publicly he was okay with throwing the rule book out the window?
You and I have the freedom to express those biases. He does not.
Sun, 2011-06-05 22:43
#132
Northern Shoveler
He had the freedom to lend support to a surprise ally. He had the freedom to support decorum in a Senate that is more corrupt today than it has been at any time over the last 40 years. He has the freedom to not speak on any issue if it is not politically expedient to do so. He has the freedom to give mini-lectures to intelligent young activists.
The people of Canada will decide whether he is choosing well. I hope he is really impressing those people in 905 land because he sure as hell is not going to be setting a fire under any young people living in this economy. They like people with guts not old men with no fight. I thought that he got elected because he was seen as a tough fighter for change. Oh well I guess it was because he respects authority that he won all those seats. I often get those kinds of political messages mashed up.
Sun, 2011-06-05 22:48
#133
Never retract, never explain, never apologize - get the thing done and let them howl! ~Nellie McClung
She got her done and now they are howling!
Sun, 2011-06-05 23:08
#134
Sun, 2011-06-05 23:25
#135
Boom Boom
Excellent, Jan, NS, and others.
Mon, 2011-06-06 00:11
#136
Boom Boom
Good heavens. I just read that Michael Moore has offered DePape a job! Yes, we need her here in Canada, but, holy cow!!!
Mon, 2011-06-06 00:18
#137
Boom Boom
He had the freedom to lend support to a surprise ally.
You're darn tooting! Layton on Question Period today sounded like my father lecturing me - 50 years ago! He's starting to sound like he's past his expiration date. How is he going to relate to all those new green MPs he suddenly got?
Mon, 2011-06-06 00:33
#138
He had the freedom to lend support to a surprise ally. He had the freedom to support decorum in a Senate that is more corrupt today than it has been at any time over the last 40 years. He has the freedom to not speak on any issue if it is not politically expedient to do so. He has the freedom to give mini-lectures to intelligent young activists.
The Senate has been totally corrupt for at least the last 40 years and is always stacked by whatever party is in power and can do so. Usually it was the Liberals so its been a Liberal dominated playtoy for most of that time.
Mon, 2011-06-06 00:34
#139
Boom Boom
Michael Moore offers job to fired Senate page
excerpt:
Filmmaker Michael Moore says Senate page Brigette DePape's protest was an iconic moment for Canada.
"For a young person to do that and to do it peacefully, and quietly and with grace, I thought it was a very powerful moment," Moore told The Canadian Press on Sunday from New York.
"Every now and then there is an iconic moment where an individual takes action, and it inspires others to think about, you know, what else would we be doing."
excerpt:
'I think that Canada and Canadians probably need to put aside the full respect thing and bring out their inner hockey stick and get to work on preventing their government from turning into a version of ours'
excerpt:
A "Stop Harper" protest inspired by DePape has already been planned for Ottawa on June 10.
Mon, 2011-06-06 00:54
#140
I thought Layton would be different. Jack Layton on CTV's Question Period this morning said the protest was wrong - there's a time and place for protest, but not during the decorum of the Throne Speech.
I see it this way - good for her for protesting but she does deserve firing for it. Being political (at least on-duty) isn't really compatible with the job. I suspect from some things above that she's going to find something more interesting and rewarding to do anyway.
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:01
#141
Boom Boom
I see it this way - good for her for protesting but she does deserve firing for it.
I'm not arguing that point. I give praise to her for her action. And I agree 100% with Michael Moore who said that Brigette DePape's protest was an iconic moment for Canada. It's a shame he gets it, but Layton doesn't.
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:09
#142
M. Spector
Brigette DePape has nothing to learn from Michael Moore. If she goes to work for him she'll end up (like him) shilling for Obama's re-election.
And that would be a terrible waste of a good activist.
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:16
#143
Boom Boom
Well, Moore is involved in other things besides Obama - and who knows, maybe she'd show Moore the error of his ways with regard to Obama. But I'd rather have her stay here in Canada - this country needs her. And she has no political affiliation yet, which will stand her in good stead. But my point stands: Moore recognised her moment as iconic for Canada - while Layton in QP this morning said her protest was wrong, and should be instead in the proper time and place. *rolls eyes*
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:16
#144
Lets hope she stays that way. I really wish parties were not allowed like supposedly for municipal elections. If we cant have PR then at least that
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:24
#145
He had the freedom to lend support to a surprise ally.You're darn tooting! Layton on Question Period today sounded like my father lecturing me - 50 years ago! He's starting to sound like he's past his expiration date. How is he going to relate to all those new green MPs he suddenly got?
I think the last time I heard that Layton was completely out of touch and had fucked himself up for good was last fall during the long gun registry debate. We have all seen how accurate that prediction was.
DePape picked her battle. Layton has to pick his battles, and so far as I can see it , this is not one of them. It is done.
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:31
#146
Boom Boom
Yeah, it's done - you're right. Two weeks ago it was Layton flipping around on the 50% + 1 question, today he basically dissed this young activist that is getting the world's attention. What next?
Mon, 2011-06-06 01:48
#147
A "Stop Harper" protest inspired by DePape has already been planned for Ottawa on June 10.
It had been in the works since election night, but close enough, I suppose.
[url=http://takethecapital.wordpress.com/]Harper Dégage! Beat Back the Tory Attack![/url]
Mon, 2011-06-06 02:05
#148
Malcolm
The Senate has been totally corrupt for at least the last 40 years . . .
The Senate has been corrupt for 144 years.
Mon, 2011-06-06 06:38
#149
But there is no reason to change the Senate, because "we have more important things to worry about", right Malcolm?
Mon, 2011-06-06 08:10
#150
I don't want to get into the long gun registry thing but as a rural person I think the NDP suggestions to make changes to the registry rather than scrap it were good ones but neither the cons or libs were willing to make good policy changes here because of their entrenched ideology and political positions. So at the end of the day I had no problem with Layton saying vote your conscious. I do so dislike black & white positions of "either you are with us or against us" because policy is very complex.
And I agree, Layton didn't want to pick this as his battle. And yes, like others we wished Jack was more nuianced in his response.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!He had the freedom to lend support to a surprise ally.You're darn tooting! Layton on Question Period today sounded like my father lecturing me - 50 years ago! He's starting to sound like he's past his expiration date. How is he going to relate to all those new green MPs he suddenly got?
I think the last time I heard that Layton was completely out of touch and had fucked himself up for good was last fall during the long gun registry debate. We have all seen how accurate that prediction was.
DePape picked her battle. Layton has to pick his battles, and so far as I can see it , this is not one of them. It is done.
Mon, 2011-06-06 08:17
#151
Stop Harper...and the harping with its nuanced nattering. Instead of visiting it 50 times, settle for "get out the back, Jack", and then give it a bloody rest.