Where is the outrage on the Rabble's Front Page about the NDP's continuing support of the bombing of Libya?

The NDP didn't launch this dirty war, the vicious toadies did. Welcome to the dirty war of worst-past-the-postian politicking. Because the NDP are going to play these toadies for all they are worth over the next four years.  No surrender. Scorched earth. Herr Harper will have to move to the States after that if he wants to continue snivelling and grovelling to US power. That's the best part.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

If any other party other than the NDP supported this war crime, there would be dozen of articles about the war criminals in the Conservative and Liberal parties.

Other parties than the NDP have supported this war crime (escalating the war on Libya.) All of them (except the Greens) in fact. 

Yet there are in fact, no articles on Rabble about the war criminals in the Consevative and Liberal parties since the vote to escalate.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

I am not really surprised, I have been looking at other pro-NDP sites and there is no outrage about the issue at hand. It appears the top end party leadership and supporters are fine with this illegal war.

It's the same problem many antiwar/anti-interventionist Democrats in the U.S. face with 'their guy' in the White House.

They won't criticize the Afghan (Af/Pak) war after Obama had troop and drone strike surges of his own there. They won't criticize the Iraq war after Obama's footdragging when it comes to bringing the troops home. They won't criticize the Libya war, now that this is a war of his own.

realistically, political parties will only go where they're pushed; so in many ways, this blatant failure by almost the entire body of elected canadian federal political representatives points to a failure at a much deeper societal level - the lack of a robust, proactive peace sector in canada, and indeed in north america.

the large (but reactive) canadian opposition to the (2nd) invasion of iraq helped limit canada's involvement (though we were still the 4th largest participant, after the u.s.,britain, and australia).

but little infrastructure is left over, let alone built on, so here we are again, how many years into afghanistan, how many months into libya, pinning our hopes on a political party to throw us (and more to the point, libyans) some scraps -  maybe some of those new mp's will vote against it...

-

but anyway here we are.  so in trying to understand the dynamic of the vote, and perhaps bring leverage to this ongoing situation, i guess a basic question in regards to the mp's is, do they really believe they are doing the right thing, or are they being opportunist / pressured?

if they're believers, then there is opportunity for education.  either way, then they must feel the displeasure of their constituents.

what do people think in regards to that question?

Rabble certainly is NDP friendly.  Babble is somewhat less forgiving, and we certainly have very few stalwarts indeed to thank for that.

Babble gets all sorts of NDP-critical contributors: right-wingers and Liberals masquerading as disgruntled NDPers (quite common at election time), right-wingers and trolls who can't tell the difference between an NDPer and anyone else on the left, left wing NDPers, left wingers who "critically support" the NDP, more left elements with a range of critical views of the NDP, and so on.

There are also a couple of NDPers who post here. lol.

Anyway, for loyal Dippers it's probably confusing at times. C'est la vie.

Frmrsldr wrote:

Fidel wrote:

... No surrender. Scorched earth. Herr Harper will have to move to the States after that if he wants to continue snivelling and grovelling to US power. That's the best part.

You believe that the NDP has adopted a fatalistic approach, then?

The NDP is going to achieve what you describe above through enabling Herr Harper and his merry band of Cons in their programme of destruction.

I think the NDP will take the same tack that left Lib Dems and Republicans are taking against Obama.  They will demand that the Harpers identify for the public record what their goals are in Libya and what the exit strategy is. The NDP will demand accountability and transparency, and our 24 percenters with 100% of power will bend and twist in the wind trying to avoid the fact that their policy for Libya is in-synch with that of Warshington, London, Paris and the same as it is for democrats in Ryadh, Manama, Islamabad, Tel Aviv and Cairo. 

And in four year's time NDP strategists will be proven correct in that Canadians will have forgotten all about Libya and moved on the more pressing issues, like the stubbornly high unemployment levels and shit show Tories bad record on the environment, pensions, and general all around incompetence. Come 2015 Harper will be about as popular as Brian Mulroney was by 1993, and about as electable as R.B. Bennett was by 1935. Canadians will wonder how in hell they were ever elected in the first place. And that's generally true of all bought and paid-for stoogeaucrats and senators alike who are invariably shoved into those jobs by big money interests. They are never really the people's choice. 

men the outcome of the vote would not matter regardless of what the NDP does, i personally have a lack of interest in federal politics at the moment..I guess one of the reasons for the lack of coverage is that the decision was so expected from the NDP...Layton has never been much anti-war for the last couple of years, and its not something he really talks about on the campaign trial..so no suprises there..theres no point of complainning for this less than ideal vote from the NDP since the election result was already so distorted due to outdated electoral system, many have become so used to low expectation from federal politics..its not like there is another party choice

political apathy is one of the biggest winnners of the recent federal election, the people who have problem with the NDP not being left enough probably do not even care to write an article against the NDP when really theres nothing worthy of supporting or writing home about from the canadian parliament at the moment..

i didnt say men, i meant to say MEH!

LOL

Yes it would be an ideal situation if Libya was the only country in the world where the USA and its white, powerful European allies were interfering politically and militarily for many years. In that case, the NDP would surely be the rat under the floor boards making chaos in a democratic and peaceful world order of things. But we know that is not close to the truth.

Rich and powerful white people in this country were expecting the NDP to be Johnny opposites to their hirelings in phony majority power. They wanted the NDP to sound like the Bolsheviks and Stalinists they accused Tommy and the CCF of being in the 1940s and 50s. The propaganda machine needs to clearly identify us as the enemies of everything good and wonderful here in the land of freedom and democracy. And we know that would be a terrible lie as well. The establishment media works on the basis of lies and propaganda, and I've seen it already in the newspaper with Monte Solberg referring to the NDP as axe murders with a consience on economic issues. The propaganda machine is waiting to pounce on the NDP at every turn. We can't let them. We owe it to too many people to run these stooges out of town on a rail by high noon next snap election call for short term political gain sometime in October 2015. Mark your calendars, buckle-up,  and then throw that date in the garbage, because Steve our big stooge with the vacant and lifeless eyes will be driving the bus for for the next four.

Backing the extension doesn't protect the NDP from anything, Fidel.  The people who would have bashed the party for that won't stop bashing it until they've made it agree to Blairize itself totally on foreign policy...which I assume even YOU would object to, since a government can't be hawkish on foreign policy anymore and still have the resources to make any meaningful social change at home.

"...so let's not kid ourselves here that the NDP gave them any encouragement or the like."

294-1

Fidel wrote:

And how did the Liberals vote?

At least with the NDP there's the odd surprise once in a while, like this.

Why not?

They [the Li(e)berals] are not our [the NDP's] teachers, right?

2dawall wrote:

I have a huge disdain for how posters like Fidel give a knee-jerk defense/cover/support for the spinelessness of the NDP. I also do not assume, as others have, that because Murray Dobbin has not put up an immediate reaction to the NDP cave, that somehow he is a part of any deflection (rare for me to agree with Catchfire).

That being said, however, there is not much of a real articulate force against what is going on in Libya from a Canadian perspective save for the really marginal sites such as New Socialist. The Canadian Peace movement has been weak on analysis forever as I can remember. Too much neo-paganism, too much Johh Lennon lyrics/memorialization, too little infrastructure for real dissent. There as been way too much confusion about supposed righteous interventionism (ie witness the various Greens globally re: Kosovo during the early 90's). This goes to a real need for a renewal of intelligence, of intellectual self-defense (in contrast to empty pseudo-intellectualism a la Zizek). That is what is needed but we first have to agree to that; right here, right now that does not look good.

What ARE you on about?

Merowe wrote:

2dawall wrote:

I have a huge disdain for how posters like Fidel give a knee-jerk defense/cover/support for the spinelessness of the NDP. I also do not assume, as others have, that because Murray Dobbin has not put up an immediate reaction to the NDP cave, that somehow he is a part of any deflection (rare for me to agree with Catchfire).

That being said, however, there is not much of a real articulate force against what is going on in Libya from a Canadian perspective save for the really marginal sites such as New Socialist. The Canadian Peace movement has been weak on analysis forever as I can remember. Too much neo-paganism, too much Johh Lennon lyrics/memorialization, too little infrastructure for real dissent. There as been way too much confusion about supposed righteous interventionism (ie witness the various Greens globally re: Kosovo during the early 90's). This goes to a real need for a renewal of intelligence, of intellectual self-defense (in contrast to empty pseudo-intellectualism a la Zizek). That is what is needed but we first have to agree to that; right here, right now that does not look good.

What ARE you on about?

looks to me like 2dawall's on about  a) not liking blind faith (it's very unbecoming...)  b) everything doesn't happen in twitter-time  c) the canadian peace movement's got some growin' to do   d) we should be figuring out strategy but we're stuck at "oh yeah at least we're not the liberals".  yet.

@duncan cameron  -  i agree.  a strategic mistake _and shallow, morally indefensible reasoning.

if not rabble's front page then elsewhere. I expect we'll see a critical piece by Dobbin etc shortly. In the meantime:

The War on Libya: Canada's Parliament Endorses Military Escalation  - by  Michel Chossudovsky

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25301

"...The Canadian parliament with one dissenting voice, votes in favor of extending Canada's participation in an illegal and criminal military undertaking. On Tuesday, after Canada recognized the NTC as Libya's legitimate government, Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird said the rebels are the true representatives of the Libyan population.

The broader implications of this 'humanitarian war' and Ottawa's role in the US-NATO military alliance, not to mention the cost of this military operation to Canadian texpayers has been barely mentioned in Canada's media.

The New Democratic Party (NDP) and the Bloc Quebecois which claim to be 'progressive' and 'anti-war' have given a blank cheque to the US-NATO sponsored war in North Africa.."

Frmrsldr wrote:

duncan cameron wrote:

No one wants to appear to support the Libyan dictator. That is what is driving the "government in waiting" group who now decide these questions inside the NDP. They are hoping the dictator will be ousted, and public interest will turn to other matters.

There's nothing in UNSCR 1973, the "No-Fly Zone" Resolution that permits regime change. Regime change/War of Aggression is illegal.

We know and are disheartened by it all. And in a world of perfect information and perfect interpretation of perfect information, the NDP would look bad for their token support of NATO's mission in Libya.

The NDP is trying hard to get elected to federal government for the first time by 2015. And we can't ignore the fact that an obsolete electoral system is less than ideal and governing how parties appeal to the widest range of voters who still bother too in spite of the right's best attempts at waging war on democracy and killing the hope of electoral democracy. It's as Zbigniew Brzezinski once said about operation Cyclone that began in July 0f 1979 - there are bigger fish to fry than creating a few stirred up Muslims. As maniacal and racist as Z-biggy's justification for slaying secular socialism in Central Asia was at the time, the NDP may also be pursuing a larger agenda than simply giving the nod to those in power who didn't need or require the NDP's approval. Yes the NDP has, on the surface, capitulated to the military aggression against Libya. It is acquiescing to a right wing agenda in Africa that can not and will probably not be prevented by Canada's official opposition party anytime in the next four years.

We all know that in addition to what it looks like on the surface, the NDP could also be jockeying for higher ground on which they will pick their fight with these Reformatories. And we will have to choose our fights wisely. It is the nature of this worst past the post game. The rotten ones and their army of darkness will not be had so easily. They are more clever than we give them credit for I think...

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah

so, WE Support The War on Tots?

(why wait until they can shoot back?)

The War on Tots is not a game

  that's played to pass the time,

  But is a fight for all that's good,

  which we are, versus them!

Our fighting men, so brave so few

   Go everywhere for peace

   Making safe a world at war

   but some yet try appease!!

Let's all support the war on terror

   If we're going to stay on top

 And as nits make lice, otherwise

   Lousy wars cost far too much!

The proof is in the bible ...

  a mighty army on the move

  Confronts a bunch of dirty tots

  when one of THEIRS steps forward!

Goliath was so strong, supreme

  faced boy David, but look who won!

Tthe war on tots is OURS to lose

  A lesson finally learned!

Bleeding hearts assume all tots

  prefer splashing pools to firefights,

But Goliath fell, he lost the war

    - IED or a slingshot stone

    - took unfair advantage of the game

  And the size of the fallen mighty!

Our needs are mighty, neverending

   Obama, plus Harper, military spending,

Around the world create resentments

   political correctness tie their  hands

  (while enabling others)  who then

Must be dealt with aggression!

They strike hard at nests of vipers

  shock and awe and bloody diapers

 war's not for the faint of heart

  The wars on terror they forced to start!

So do your duty, fall in line

  Maverick politicians tells it right!

Support the troops maybe out of style

But liberal news media remains defiant,  

Telling everyone on earth "You're  Goliath!'

while we pro-war patriots are 'just a child!" (re don cherry, hahaha)

--------------------

Just read Murray Dobbin's - excellent.

There he goes again with the 'current mission' caveat, which for him and his party has had a particular utility in the Afghanistan context, and why not for Libya it seems.  Perhaps he's clinging to the hope that one of those smart bombs will finally take Gadaffi out so as to relieve him from the burden of having to cast his lot once again with his partners in crime.  Nothing on that wish list will be observed through the NATO regime change missionary position, and he damn well knew it when he threw down his vote in the yes man affirmative.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Fidel wrote:

No he was simply looking at what the Socialist International, African Union and European social democracies were doing about Qadaffi promising "no mercy" for Libyan rebels which a number of world leaders on both the left and right interpreted as a declaration of intention to commit crimes. 

 

That's the type of leader we need, someone who waits to see what other people are doing and follow them along blindly.

You mean other people as in the African Union, U.N. and Socialist International? Those other people?  This as opposed to taking orders from a couple guys heading up a military dictatorship in Warshington as per what Steve the Stooge and his pals in the Liberal Party have done on a regular basis beginning with Afghanistan? 

I think I see what you mean now. Carry on.

remind wrote:

what you want the NDP to be white western centric and tell them all how it is from our viewpoint? 

I thought that was what he was doing.  White western centric + telling them about our viewpoint = being lit up by explosives.