Call to stop Keystone XL

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Fri, 2011-09-23 15:04

Roscoe

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Really Roscoe?
Well in the first place we don't really know because Keystone was approved by the National Energy Board, not parliament.
Secondly, some polls indicate the federal policy on fossil fuels isn't actually what the people want:
http://www.dirtyoilsands.org/news/article/poll_suggests_harper_governmen...
And thirdly, if the oil is being pulled out of the ground, what is the "common sense" and "financial benefits for decades" if it is being shipped raw to the states and Canadian jobs, taxes, and manufacturing revenue goes with it?
And decades are a long time I guess.... I might be dead by the time those riches dry up. On the other hand, I might not.
We have the same problem here in Saskatchewan with our government giving potash away for nothing. At least we have the pleasure of knowing we will be getting screwed out of royalties for another 300 years before it all dries up and the industry packs up and goes home.

Quote:

The joint review panel can either turn down or approve a project, and can impose a series of conditions. Because the National Energy Board is an independent, quasi-judicial tribunal, Cabinet cannot overturn a review panel decision. But, in the event of approval, the government must issue a certificate permitting the application to proceed, and could refuse to do so.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-a...

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:27

#103

Roscoe

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Roscoe wrote:

Try investing in the resource rather than standing around with your hand out. Royalties are only one component of returns to owners. There is a huge difference between owning a resource and generating a return on that resource - it takes money.

I'll ignore the insult about handouts.

It wasn't meant as an insult but a reflection of the fact that resources don't get themselves out of the ground.

You seem to be confusing companies and their investors with who it is that actually owns the resource - the people of the province

(not to get into the far larger issue of who ULTIMATELY owns the resources)

No. Legally binding agreements about resource extraction or, as you mention, ill-advised sales of public resource entities define both ownership and the rights and responsibilities thereof. If 'the people' don't like it, they are free to elect a government that will exact a more advantageous remedy. I don't notice the people of Saskatchewan taking to the streets over POT although Brad Wall may have another card up his sleeve. The potash issues is much more complex than simply increasing royalties. When higher price regimes are imposed on farmers, they respond by not using as much product.

Most companies (though of course not all) have to pay a fair price for the goods and resources they profit off of. That includes royalties, and not leaving the province with a big cleanup bill.

I think you have it backwards. As a shareholder you are the one getting a free ride that comes out of my tax bill. So I am afraid it is your hand in my pocket.

Thanks, I'll leave it there until I reach the lint.

As a matter of fact, that company you are getting dividends from was built by our tax dollars and sold off for short-term profit.

Yeah, stupid is as stupid does. I'm not overly informed about that deal but your government was extremely short-sighted. Investors like myself, OTOH are not.

And I didn't make any comparison between the NEB and the Tea Party. My point was that since they are an unelected body, and the decision to approve Keystone never went to parliament, you don't have any grounds to claim that the decision represents the will of the people of Canada.

No, you didn't but the tone I got was that the NEB ranked with the Fraser Institute. The NEB, if you read their reports, is very professional and apolitical.

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:37

#104

Boom Boom

moved to end of thread

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:38

#105

Roscoe

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Roscoe.....

The NDP called on the government to bring the issue to be debated in parliament. Harper's minority government declined to do.

Regardless of what you think about the legitimacy of minority governments, you have no grounds for your claim that it is "will go ahead because Canadians want these benefits" or because "the majority of Canadians exhibit more common sense".

You say you have stocks. Surely you recognize a deal made in the boardroom when you see it. This decision had nothing to do with what the people of Canada wanted.

Oh yeah. Boardroom deals where the insiders try to take control of an entity that has a large upside is one of the most insidious schemes haunting small private investors.

Which issue are you refering to?

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:38

#106

Boom Boom

Ottawa Keystone pipeline expansion protest planned for Sept.26

excerpt:

So far, 150 Canadians are planning to risk arrest on Sept. 26 on Parliament Hill in what organizers are hoping will be the biggest civil disobedience action on the climate issue in Canada.

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:43

#107

6079_Smith_W

Roscoe.....

The NDP called on the government to bring the issue to be debated in parliament. Harper's minority government declined to do.

Regardless of what you think about the legitimacy of minority governments, you have no grounds for your claim that it is "will go ahead because Canadians want these benefits" or because "the majority of Canadians exhibit more common sense".

You say you have stocks. Surely you recognize a deal made in the boardroom when you see it. This decision had nothing to do with what the people of Canada wanted.

Fri, 2011-09-23 15:59

#108

6079_Smith_W

The NEB approval - that issue.

And Roscoe, your take on public vs. private ownership aside, when it comes to using "the product" you buy less fertilizer, your crops don't grow, you have less to sell.

So the bullshit argument that you have to keep prices low, business taxes low, wages low, costs low, everything low except for the return for investors and management or else everything will fall apart is just that - fertilizer.

Don't be coy. You know potash is a gold mine or you probably wouldn't have bought stock in the first place. It's your belief that you investors had anyting to do with building this industry that is completely screwed up. And I'm sure you are also being coy about why it is that our governments are being taken over by those intent on selling public resources off to the lowest bidder.

And your comment about keeping your hand in my pocket - it's not something I would be proud of if I were you.

Sorry, but I voted in the Manitoba election when the Tories promised up and down they were not going to sell MTS, and then did it anyway.

(edit)

"Oh yeah. Boardroom deals where the insiders try to take control of an entity that has a large upside is one of the most insidious schemes haunting small private investors."

...again, upside for you. Downside for the workers who are going to be out of work, taxpayers and residents who are going to have to pay for lost revenue, cleanup, environmental damage and everything else involved in this bad business deal. And I suspect you know it too.

Fri, 2011-09-23 17:56

#109

MegB

Continued here.

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