Things that help to define Canada as a 'progressive' country

Boom Boom wrote:

I was going to add Canada Student Loan/grant programs, but these have fallen much short of what they were when I was a student 40 years ago. They definitely need to be funded properly - but I'm not an expert on this - maybe someone with knowledge of the subject could please comment?

Canadian Federation of Students wrote:

Debt Aversion 

Debt aversion is the personal calculation that the sacrifice of debt accumulation and repayment are not worth the return from post-secondary education. When examining the details of financial barriers to participation in Canada, Malatest and Associates found that debt aversion was strong among nonattendees, cited by one in four who said that financial issues were preventing their enrolment1.

More detailed studies on debt aversion have been conducted in the United Kingdom. It has been determined that students from racialised communities and lower income backgrounds, as well as single parents are more likely to hold negative feelings about taking on student debt2. Two thirds ofstudents who decide against enrolling in university say that student debt affected their decision3. Debt aversion has also been linked to decisions about where to study. In one UK survey, the vast majority of those who chose to live with their parents while studying cited a desire to minimize student debt4.

http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/studentdebt/index.html

The student debt clock on the site is about to turn to $14,000,000,000.  

I think that Boom Boom has a point, unless we're willing to say straight-up that Canada is the least-progressive country around.

ygtbk wrote:

I think that Boom Boom has a point, unless we're willing to say straight-up that Canada is the least-progressive country around.

I didn't realize those were the only two options.

Canada is NOT a progressive country.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 unless we actually look at things which we can build on to make that progressive society we want, it is never going to happen.

 

agreed.

Boom Boom wrote:

"rah rah Canada"???? That wasn't my intention. I had the intention of building solidarity for a return to a progressive values, which is why I said in post #2 "...which need to be defended or restored". But move or close the thread if necessary. I tried.

Boom, you are barking up the wrong tree here; we're just average NDP voters/supporters, and we look at Canada and see a variety of interesting social accomplishments -- as does the rest of the world, certainly in Europe

the wiser folk here see nothing but catastrophe in a country that led the UN's Human Development Index non-stop through the 1990s; they have sure-fire social remedies at hand, policies that are currently being applied successfully in ....

 hmmm,  actually, nowhere on the planet Earth at last check 

DaveW wrote:

Boom, you are barking up the wrong tree here; we're just average NDP voters/supporters, and we look at Canada and see a variety of interesting social accomplishments -- as does the rest of the world, certainly in Europe

the wiser folk here see nothing but catastrophe in a country that led the UN's Human Development Index non-stop through the 1990s; they have sure-fire social remedies at hand, policies that are currently being applied successfully in ....

 hmmm,  actually, nowhere on the planet Earth at last check

Hey, you could make a good living doing PR work for Stephen Harper! You certainly have mastered the voice of white, male, straight, middle-class privilege.

I'm sure the first task he would want you to perform is to explain to the public how a country can be "progressive" (whatever that means) without electing "progressive" governments.

Well I'll risk a shitstorm and name a few more: 

Our firearms regulations. Even if the long gun registry is struck down, our policies and traditions around handguns are far more progressive than places where people think they have to walk around armed to the teeth (or where they really have to).

Our less adversarial legal system. It is less of a litigious money-making system than it is south of the border. I would think this is the case even in provinces which do not have no-fault insurance systems. We have also not seen copyright laws used as a means of censorship in the same way that they have been in the U.S.

Our regulations against the marketing of prescription drugs. 

The absence of a death penalty.

The CBC (I am opening my umbrella now)

Our diplomatic and business relations with Cuba.

Our supreme court. I know there are some here who disagree with that, but I think the fact our justices are not expected to use political bias in their rulings is more progressive than the way it is in the U.S. As well, several of the most progressive changes in Canadian society have been the result of supreme court rulings.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms

Separation of Church and State. Politicians in our country don't need to invoke a god's blessing, or be seen attending church in order to get elected, and fortunately it still seems awkward when they try to do so. Even the most vocal politicians on religious issues like abortion are very careful about bringing faith into the argument.

Of course "progressive" is a relative and highly-subjective term. But the more I think about it the more I think it is a useful exercise, because all these more progressive things are currently under attack, as Slumberjack says.

milo204 wrote:

perhaps the title in the thread should be "why we are a tad more progressive than the US"....

Well I would expect nothing less, as a properly demure and understated Canadian approach to the question. 

And you have to even ask why we are more progressive? I rest my case.

As far as I know, Boom Boom has the respect of most, if not all who post here.  I seriously doubt that a conversation regarding Canada as a progressive nation could be sustained beyond an opening paragraph however; because what we'd gain in the way of points from such a discourse in terms of universal health care and the social safety net, etc, would be quickly overtaken by points against.  In short order we'd be mired in those semantic, waste of time, petty dances on the head of a pin exchanges involving the throngs of communities for whom the experience of progressive Canada in all of its glory is one of woeful inadequacy.  We'd have to block an awful lot out to carry it through.

Well Maysie the voices of privilege are sure putting you in your place.  Gee why can't you understand all "real" activists are white middle class social democrats.  People like "you" know nothing.  Its not like "you" have every done anything to promote either social justice or electoral success.  

I'll go a bit further out on a limb and suggest that the most developed and colonial cultures (including the U.S.) are an important nexus of progressive thought in the world, and further, that that has always been the case for the wealthiest and most privileged societies of the world.

After all, if you were to name the most well-known and influential progressive thinkers in the world, where did some of them do their work and express their ideas?

I should be clear that I don't think that this is the result of any superiority or higher intelligence on the part of people who live in more privileged societies, but rather the higher standard of living, resources and freedom that some people in our society enjoy, as well as the ability to have our ideas circulated efficiently and freely. 

Also, I should point out that I don't think developed nations are the only important source of progressive thought and reform. But I think our coutnries are important because of the power we have.

I think the same thing goes for some of the progressive policies, innovations and reforms in our countries. I can see how some here might want to downplay them because of the inequitable system which spawned them, but the fact remains that there are some progressive policies which were first implemented at the heart of colonial empires. 

Is it a vindication of those systems? Of course not. But it is a fact that we would be foolish to deny.

@ 500_ Apples

I agree, and I hope I made that clear in my comment. 

It still doesn't change the fact that in any conversation about revolutionary change the name that most often comes up is the guy who always had a maid to serve him tea, and is resting in a nice plot (with a much better marker than I will ever be able to afford) in Highgate cemetary.

howeird beale wrote:

outwest wrote:

quote:
"Boom Boom, while I appreciate the sentiment of your thread, a counter-thread called "Things that help define Canada as a non-progressive country" would fill up much faster and with far less introspection. I can't get on board the "rah-rah" Canada thing you want to have here. Good luck. And the activism forum is absolutely not the place for this thread."

Not to pick on you, Maysie, but your comment above (supported by a couple of other people here) is the precise reason why people are turned off from reading blogs and comments. It's nitpicking and I think it's uncalled for and the kind of comments I try to skip over whenever possible.

Boom Boom has constructively called for a list of progressive agendas in Canada that we should keep a steady eye on, and I see nothing wrong with it, whatsoever. I suggest we all focus on the CONTENT of comments, not superficial things such as heading titles, semantic wording, etc.... the discussion of which is a complete and utter waste of time. No wonder the left can't get ahead - its supporters spend their time dancing on the heads of pins and picking petty fights with each other instead of concentrating on the crux of important issues. 

 

[quote=Howeird
Beale

Well put, outwest

Of course picking petty fights is all some posters do. Its not like they're out there organizing. You wouldnt want to take their illusion of participation in social change away from them, would you? Its all they have.

Its like "Mass for Shut-Ins" on the Catholic channel

Also, I think they resent any portrayal of the world that differs from the binary, black/ white, good/ bad simplicity of a Medeival play: here comes Marxist Goodfriend, he's so brave and bold! Ewwww, there's Plutocrat Bastard, you can tell him by the tophat and the monocle. Boo! Hsssss.

I agree that borders are just 'lines on dirt' but you have to give people something to defend, something to fight for. To say that our constantly stressed half assed progressive attributes in this country aren't something to cherish isnt pissing on Stephen Harper, its pissing on all those people like sit down strikers and Tommy Douglas, who fought their asses off to get us those things.

And its where most Canadians heads are at. Wanna be completely bleak? Be one of those three member cadres screaming at everyone to buy their crummy angry papers as you walk into a rally they didnt organize.

See where that gets you.

[/quote]

Surely you aren't suggesting that any critique or opposing opinion about what Canadian progressiveness looks like is merely "nitpicking " and an example of armschair activism.  Case in point: Maysie has been an activist for anti-rascism, human rights, social equity, and attends every demonstration, meeting, colloquial, eductional upgrading, and teaches workshops on anti-racism and how to recognize it in ourselves and others.

Quote:

picking petty fights is all some posters do. Its not like they're out there organizing. You wouldnt want to take their illusion of participation in social change away from them, would you? Its all they have.

Its like "Mass for Shut-Ins" on the Catholic channel

 

This sad fantasy of yours has no relation to the adtivities of many babblers who protest, organize, teach anti-racism training workshops, write powerful and inspiring stories about events on the ground.  In fact, they are quite the opposite to that which you are accusing them.

Rebecca West wrote:

  Maysie has been an activist for anti-rascism, human rights, social equity, and attends every demonstration, meeting, colloquial, eductional upgrading, and teaches workshops on anti-racism and how to recognize it in ourselves and others.

Thanks Rebecca, but to be fair, I haven't attended every demonstration and meeting. I need my beauty sleep ya know.

I didnt say every poster.

There certainly seem to be a few here who think everytime someone gets up and does something here, in Iran, in Syria, on Wall Street, anywhere, that they must be either a puppet or a spy. That's a sad fantasy, too. There's hardly a shortage of posts to that effect on this board, and thats pretty depressing. My first reaction is "well what did you do then?"

But Maysie isnt one of those people to whom I was referring. Its clear from her posts how active she is. But from my post it didnt read that way. At all.So i would up dumping on someone who is on the street, the same thing that pissed me off in others.

So what I wrote was ham-handed and unfair. So sorry Maysie, and to the others who are actually walking the walk.

Keep up the good work.

howeird beale wrote:

The micrphone analogy is apt. How many books have we lost by keeping their authors uneducated and in toil and bondage so the affluent might be idle?

Exactly, and that was an important part of my point. The microphone is here. It is not that people in developed nations are more dedicated, more intelligent or have a better perspective on things. Quite the opposite, actually.

But generally speaking developed nations have more resources, higher visibility, more security and a more free flow of information. Therefore not just more freedom to speak, but also more opportunity to form links with others who experience oppression.

The image of people pushed and oppressed until they revolt is only part of the story. There are just as many cases of reform and revolution coming about when people had enough of an improvement in their lives that they were able to act.

The way I see it we have more of an opportunity, and therefore more of a responsibility - to use our resources for positive change, and to try and undo the negative influence our society has here and in the rest of the world.

Maysie wrote:

And that hurt, ya know.  

Take two pinners..one now and one before lights out...and call me in the morning.

Boom Boom wrote:

...now I have a migraine headache.

Same advice to you Boom Boom.

Boom Boom wrote:

ETA: I realize I've made some rather enormous blunders in babble over the course of my seven years here, and am trying to learn from them. I never claimed to be perfect. I think I'm doing rather well for someone from the Mob.  

I hope you don't think this is one of them, despite the flak.

I prefer to think there are no stupid questions, and how people deal with your proposition is entirely up to them.