Will Egypt be better or worse as a 'democracy'?

How can it be worse?

One way: if the present regime is allowed to stay in power, even for a few months, the reprisals and demage it can effect in that time is horrific. The people can't afford to back down and let that happen. The regime can't afford to compromise; may already have decided to gamble on extreme provocation to push the rebellion into hostile action, thus providing an excuse to open fire on the crowd. The army may side with the government at the top brass level, yet refuse to mow down all their kinfolk at ground level... It can get very messy indeed, as revolutions tend to do.

And then?

Then they'll have to start over and build something new. Whatever that turns out to be, better it should be their own.

Should they have waited for capitalism to fall on its fat ass? But they're hungry now.

As long as Egypt has a system of government where people's views can be expressed through a political party and they can vote for them they will be fine. Religious underground political groups like the Muslim Brotherhood were popular because they were the only real political resistance around to the (now doomed) current government. They could "exist" if you will because the government couldn't take its political oppression into the mosques without risking the ire of the people; so, naturally, the only real safe opposition to the government was in the mosques. Now that will hopefully change and the people of Egypt will be free to form or join whatever political party they want.

That is not to say religious political parties won't be popular in Egypt; especially at first; it's probably all most of the people know right now. I think with time there will be a wide choice of parties for the Egyptians to be able to choose from if they stay the course of political freedom.  The key to this is for Egypt to be able to have fraud free elections and for the parties that be to accept the results of the peoples vote (and not just one time in one election). A winning political party should have to keep worrying about winning the next election and step down in a peaceful manner if they lose.

As I said in another thread: Getting rid of Mubarak was the easy part... creating a country with a strong election system based on democratic principles is the hard part. There are many dangerous pitfalls ahead for the Egyptian people; and not all of them are from evil external sources like the USA or Israel.

Egyptians have just pulled off a revolution with more civility and decorum than USians exhibit in a choreographed election.

Nobody in the west had better presume to lecture them on autonomy!

I don't think it is really possible to say, with any certainty, how this Egyptian revolution will evolve over the coming days, weeks or years. What is clear is, that here now, the Egyptian people have had a great victory that all progressives and yes, Left revolutionaries should celebrate for what it is.

Essentially, I think, at this point, it is a simple bourgeois democratic revolution that is, I'm sure they hope, going to bring them into  what they perceive to be the modern capitalist world, as a state independent of imperialist domination. (Which was the essential state of dependence the Mubarak/military regime had them lock into.) Also, let's not have any doubts here, even democracy in the modern bourgeois sense is infinitely preferable and likely to be better for the Egyptian people than the fascist quasi-colonial dictatorship under Mubarak. If early appearance is in fact reality.

But clearly, this revolution has some distance to run yet before it is home free. The Empire is working mightily behind the scenes, as we get some hints of, even from the western corporate media, to cling to its old dominating influence over Egypt, and to exercise influence and control events leading to its its eventual leadership outcome. AND, and a very important "and" it is, to maintain the old Mubarak policies toward and agreements with Israel and western imperialism in the larger Middle East. (The War On Terror.)

Plus, while it's possible that the Egyptian people MAY know their military better than I/we do, or want to test how it will conduct itself, and feel comfortable with the role it is hoped it will play in the future, in allowing the flowering even of an unfettered bourgeois
democracy, I remain less certain and much more skeptical. But again, we shall see. I have been wrong before.  (And we are talking here, especially, of the uppermost command leadership levels of the army. Who historically are drawn with cash, perks and power closer to the ruling class than they are the lower order levels of the officer corp or the gun toting, tank driving grunt from the working class.)

There is more than one stage to any revolution, such as they have just gone through. We are yet to hear the retort of counter-revolutionary attempts as may yet be mounted by the old guard and the ruling class of Egypt. And how the upper levels of the army may already be manoeuvring with these elements to frustrate the revolutionary gains of the Egyptian people. With or without the interference of western imperialism.

I have doubts it is going to be quite so simple and short run a conflict, to change that old regime, as it has been to here. More typically it can take years to become clear what has actually been achieved and not, after a revolutionary event... and even then?

That said, I wish the Egyptian people well. What they "seem" to have gained at least, be it true, even as a bourgeois democracy, over the coming days, is doubtless much
preferable to what was.

May "The People" ultimately succeed.

Elections are to democracy as photographs are to film. There's been no "election" in Egypt these past weeks but it is still democracy at work.

"Egypt simply reminds us that anything that is unsustainable will someday change. It is an emblem for the world." wrote image zombie.

True, yes, especially your last few paragraphs... for as far as it goes.  But the fact is, even the advanced western "bourgeois democracies", not excluding Canada, all with declining populations, except for what is being augmented with immigration, are all in deteriorating economic difficulties. So, while what you say is true, there are clearly other elements involved in the accumulating indicators of global economic system collapse... which I suggest involve also class "share" issues which compound the other drivers of it you indicate.

Over the period since the 1970s everywhere throughout global capitalism, but especially notable in this instance, the hereto "advanced" countries' economies. All of this driven by a class share crisis initiated by ongoing neo-liberal economic practises which a newly emboldened conservative ruling class has used to undermine especially working class economic share... Which has in turn undermined the critical demand pull effect working class share, as consumers, has on the activity and vitality of the economy.

So in addition to a global energy crisis which has acted to undermine the endless growth need of capitalism, it has also pulled the rug out from under the other goose that lays golden eggs within the system... working class consumerism.

The revolution in Egypt is doubtless a leading edge indicator of both these elements, again compounded by a qualitatively more corrupt ruling class and political order than MAY exist here for example, but it is trailing behind it a total, all inclusive global economic order crisis that is continuing to evolve as well.

How long it will go on, whether the economic order can recover, and what will be the end effect on the dynamic of class relations twixt the ruling and working classes, even in the advanced countries, is difficult to know for certain, as is its final outcome. Egypt is a leading indicator of what is wrong with the world alright, and its economic and political order in more ways than one.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

N.Beltov wrote:

Elections are to democracy as photographs are to film. There's been no "election" in Egypt these past weeks but it is still democracy at work.

  

True, but governing by pouring into the streets all the time, while appealingly leftist and revolutionary, is a pretty chaotic way to govern a country over the long run don't you think? In the end a systems has to be in place that allows power of government to change in an orderly manner based on the will of what the majority wants while protecting the rights of the minority.

... Are you hinting at some sort of vote free, rule by committee system? If you are I'd like to hear about it.

 

 

Hopefully we are looking at the sepia-shaded work of early photography, not much to look at, but lots of potential.

"...based on the will of what the majority wants while protecting the rights of the minority." bec.de.corbin wrote.

And which "minority" in particular are we speaking of here... one in the abstract, a particular group or class of folks, religion, what?

Revolutions are a fact of life... called up when there is no other choice, and oppression in one form or another just has to be dealt with and/or a great socio-economic change just cannot be put off any longer, and is being resisted by a minority group/class with a vested interest they are not prepared to let go of.

Coyoteman wrote:

"...based on the will of what the majority wants while protecting the rights of the minority." bec.de.corbin wrote.

And which "minority" in particular are we speaking of here... one in the abstract, a particular group or class of folks, religion, what?

One in the abstract.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Coyoteman wrote:

"...based on the will of what the majority wants while protecting the rights of the minority." bec.de.corbin wrote.

And which "minority" in particular are we speaking of here... one in the abstract, a particular group or class of folks, religion, what?

 

One in the abstract.

 

My point being essentially the same one as the person, I believe Fidel, immediatley below you. The ruling class in genersl, those of special wealth and privilege in most status quo societies, and those like politicians and Generals who serve them, in this case Egypt, are a very small minority with a huge power over the majority (typically the various strata of the working class.) I'm sorry, hypocrtically, but revolution is a constant risk for these folks... and it simply has to be that way.

Indeed, the right to revolution is one which cannot be taken away from this majority working masses. One may try, and it may even be frustrated for a time by ruling class terror, of the type we saw from Mubarak's thugs, but if the seed and need for real revolution is there, laws, jurisprudence, hoisted pinkies, privilege and established power will, eventually, be over-run anyway.

A fact of life that just needs to be sucked up by the ruling class, and those who serve them... when the time comes. In this case again, we are talking Egypt, of course.

Egyptian military officials moved to clear the remaining few dozen protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square on Monday, and also were expected to effectively ban strikes.

Reuters reported that about 40 protesters remained in the square, the scene of anti-government demonstrations for more than two weeks. Some protesters told the news agency that they had been threatened with arrest if they did not leave.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/14/egypt-protesters-strike-military.html#ixzz1DwoCAgRZ

M. Spector wrote:

I wonder what "rights" Bec would like to see accorded to the "abstract" minority that profited from the Mubarak dictatorship and helped to maintain his despotic rule.

Should they, for example, be accorded the opportunity to regain power in Egypt?  

I have no idea where you're trying to go with that... but please feel free to run down that road if you'd like. I woun't be following you.

Anyways what I meant with that statement that seems to be the focus of several here's attention for some strange reason is covered in this link. It's also the source of where I got the idea for my post. If you disagree with that (the below link) I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on an alterative system.

http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/minority.htm

another link...

http://democracyweb.org/majority/principles.php

It was a general statement about a system of governing. It will be up to the Egyptian people to work out the details of how their new government will function and who will be held responsible for the past. There are still interesting times ahead.

Hope that cleared things up a bit.

"It's a business conglomerate, like General Electric. It's represented in virtually every sector of the economy. It's holdings, include vast tracts of land, including the Sharm el Sheikh resort, where ex President Hosni Mubarak resides in one of his seaside palaces. Bread from its bakeries have helped fend off food riots.." quote courtesy nodifference.

I was some aware of this, but not much of these particulars. Thanks for this.

It certainly demonstrates that if even the modest gain of the Egyptian Revolution is going to have any significant impact on their society, the revolution is far from over. There is often this great historical tendency of the masses, including in the "advanced" Western so-called democracies, to presume they achieved what they wanted too quickly. (And I know it is much because of the need to work to feed families, and no backup resources for prolonged conflict. Still, they are going to have to prepare to come back to it again, or watch it all dissipate for naught.)

And while I, nor anyone else knows for certain of course, I have a sense given this latest great epic rising of theirs, that one can expect it. Once the fear is overcome, there is a tendency to not soon go back to what was. Though over an extended time, like say six months... which US Imperialism, the Zionists and the Egyptian military, you can be sure, know. Which overcoming fear phenomena we need to see in this country no less. In my view.

 
Errr, Fidel, are you saying the majority of the Egyptian people DIDN'T vote for the Muslim Brotherhood but they won anyways because the USA wanted them to?

Payback For Paid Revolution? Egyptian Police Raid US NGOs (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/egypt-police-raid-ngo-953/

"Police in Cairo have today raided 17 civil society organizations as the country's military rulers seek to find out who exactly has been funding the Egyptian revolution. At least three of the human rights groups targeted in Thursday's operation, the National Democratic Institute, (NDI), Freedom House, and the International Republican Institute (IRI) are based in the US.

Author David Swanson believes the US-backed NGOs are not doing anything to help the situation in Egypt. 'We're talking here about many, many NGOs with different agendas, some from the United States with a record of ties to the CIA and a record of attempts to influence the outcomes of elections in other countries, he told RT.."

So why would Egypt's military be raiding the offices of U.S.-funded "NGO's"?

According to national laws of Egypt and the U.S.A, is it not perfectly legal  for one country to provide "democracy assistance" to another? 

Has the Government of Egypt, or Cuba for that matter, ever been so generous as to donate cash and advisors to the cause of democracy assistance in U.S. elections where certain democratic voices have complained of a lack of proper campaign financing? 

What could possibly be wrong with this picture?

Egypt raids foreign organizations' offices in crackdown Three U.S. groups are among those raided. 

Activists say the army is using the ruse of foreign intervention to stoke nationalism and deflect criticism of abuses.

Because nationalism is a dirty word? Are Egyptians incapable of electing their own leaders without help from a certain foreign government nextdoor to "Soviet Canuckistan", as presidential candidate Pat Buchanan once referred to Canada? Perhaps Soviet Canuckistan will require some "NGOs" and "democracy assistance" at some point when things aren't going Washington's way in Ottawa.

here's more on Western 'steering' of the Arab Spring:

NGO Raids in Egypt: The US Engineered 'Arab Spring'

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28433

'Egypt is on a Collision Course' (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/egypt-protest-tahrir-democracy-614/

"Tens of thousands of liberals, leftists and Islamists all protested on Friday in Cairo's landmark Tahrir Square. They accuse the ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces of manipulating the upcoming elections in order to hold on to power."

It has ruled that last year's parliamentary election was unconstitutional, deciding that one third of the seats were "illegitimate".

The controversial decision, days before Egypt's presidential election run-off, has prompted the ruling military council to hold an emergency meeting.

The Muslim Brotherhood said it would send Egypt into a "dark tunnel".

Its Freedom and Justice party won 46% of the vote in the three-month poll and senior Brotherhood figure Essam Al-Arian warned that the decision would leave the incoming president without a parliament or a constitution

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18439530

Former Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak was in a coma on Wednesday but off life support and his heart and other vital organs were functioning, according to security officials. Overnight, state media reported that the 84-year-old, who was ousted in last year's uprising and is now serving a life sentence in prison, suffered a stroke and was put on life support. He was transferred to a military hospital from the Cairo prison hospital where he has been kept since his June 2 conviction and sentencing for failing to stop the killing of protesters during the uprising.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/20/egypt-mubarak-coma.html

Clinton Reaffirms Backing of Egypt's Military Junta by grtv

Quote:

As Egypt lurches toward a civilian state, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pays a visit to the country's civilian and military leaders.

Clinton avoids blaming military for violent transitional period, despite $1.3 billion dollars in aid to the generals.

And by some order of wild coincidence Al-CIA'duh and its affiliated terror groups are also NOT pushing for overthrow of the U.S.-backed military dictatorship in Cairo.