How to be a fan of problematic things

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Catchfire Catchfire's picture
How to be a fan of problematic things

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I like things, and some of those things are problematic. I like Lord of the Rings even though it’s pretty fucked up with regard to women and race (any narrative that says “this whole race is evil” is fucked up, okay). I like A Song of Ice and Fire even though its portrayal of people of colour is problematic, and often I find that its in-text condemnation of patriarchy isn’t obvious enough to justify the sexism displayed. I like the movie Scott Pilgrim vs The World even though it is racist in its portrayal of Matthew Patel, panders to stereotypes in its portrayal of Wallace, and trivialises queer female sexuality in its portrayal of Ramona and Roxy’s relationship. For fuck’s sake, Ramona even says “It was a phase”! How much more cliche and offensive could this movie be? Oh wait, remember how Scott defeats Roxy, his only female adversary, by making her orgasm? Excuse me while I vomit…and then keep watching because I still like the rest of the movie.

Liking problematic things doesn’t make you an asshole. In fact, you can like really problematic things and still be not only a good person, but a good social justice activist (TM)! After all, most texts have some problematic elements in them, because they’re produced by humans, who are well-known to be imperfect. But it can be surprisingly difficult to own up to the problematic things in the media you like, particularly when you feel strongly about it, as many fans do. We need to find a way to enjoy the media we like without hurting other people and marginalised groups. So with that in mind, here are my suggestions for things we should try our darnedest to do as self-confessed fans of problematic stuff.

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Firstly, acknowledge that the thing you like is problematic and do not attempt to make excuses for it. It is a unique irritation to encounter a person who point blank refuses to admit that something they like is problematic. Infuriatingly, people will often actually articulate some version of the argument “It can’t be problematic because I like it, and I’m nice”....

Secondly, do not gloss over the issues or derail conversations about the problematic elements. Okay, so you can admit that Dune is problematic. But wait, you’re not done! You need to be willing to engage with people about it! It’s not enough to be like “Ok, I admit that it’s problematic that the major villain is a fat homosexual rapist, but come on, let’s focus on the giant sandworms!”. Shutting people down, ignoring or giving minimal treatment to their concerns, and refusing to fully engage with their issues is a form of oppression....

Thirdly you must acknowledge other, even less favourable, interpretations of the media you like. Sometimes you still enjoy a movie or book because you read a certain, potentially problematic scene in a certain way – but others read it entirely differently, and found it more problematic....

Catchfire Catchfire's picture
milo204

interesting subject!  

one thing to keep in mind is that there are a ton of great alternatives to the mainstream when it comes to stuff like movies, music, etc...

i think the main thing is if you're critical and see the things that are fucked up...i mean i know that anything mainstream is going to bring with it all the biases, racism, sexism, etc of mainstream society...it's like i'm just waiting to find those moments whenever i watch something...

for example: i like seinfeld...even though michael richards went on a racist rant a couple of years ago, i still think the show is funny, i still laugh at kramer and i still watch it every night...the only difference is now everything kramer says is interpreted through the "i know richards is a racist" lens and i think about stuff he says differently...even though he didn't write it!

6079_Smith_W

A good thread, with a simple answer, at least for those of us who choose to accept it

Short answer: start applying purity tests to everything artistic and you will drive yourself insane because you actually like Gary Glitter, Jerry Lee Lewis, or the Rolling Stones.

To carry on a recent theme, we haven't even touched on Shakspeare, even though his canon includes a particularly good stick in the eye to racists, in Aaron's speech from Titus Andronicus:

What, what, ye sanguine, shallow-hearted boys!

Ye white-limed walls! ye alehouse painted signs!

Coal-black is better than another hue,

In that it scorns to bear another hue;

For all the water in the ocean

Can never turn the swan's black legs to white,

Although she lave them hourly in the flood.

Michelle

Is this where I confess a weakness for KISS  and AC/DC?  Including their songs with really offensive and/or sexist lyrics? ;)

Elton John is one of those problematic musicians that I love (well, I loved him before he became the Disney House Band in the early 90's), but whose lyrics are often more than just problematic.  But it wasn't until I was older and really got thinking about the lyrics I had been singing along with for a decade or two that I really was able to analyze what I didn't like about them.  Now, I could write essays upon essays about his songs, and how classist, sexist, and racist they are.

And yet, I love most of them because I have loved the melodies for so long.  There are a couple, though, that have been completely spoiled for me by realizing how racist they are, even though I once liked the tunes.

6079_Smith_W

@ Michelle

No problem there. Bernie Taupin is the lyricist for his early stuff. Elton only wrote the tunes.

Michelle

Oh, I know Taupin wrote the lyrics.  But Elton John clearly had no problem singing them!

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Neither did you, I bet!

ETA. Wait. That didn't quite work. I don't mean to suggest that you have no problem singing racist lyrics, Michelle (yikes!). Just that you have no problem singing the melodies along with the CD or whatever. So now I've either a) insulted you or b) ruined my joke if it wasn't insulting. Well done CF!

6079_Smith_W

Sometimes it is all a matter of perspective:

From the "To Serve Man" department

Michelle

Oh, I definitely sang along with all of Elton John's songs growing up!  But there are a couple of them that I just can't get into anymore (or sing along with) because they're so blatantly racist.  I used to sing along with them, though.  It probably helped that half the time I couldn't understand the lyrics anyhow, since Elton John isn't exactly the king of annunciation.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hold me closer, Tony Danza...

Michelle

Catchfire wrote:

Hold me closer, Tony Danza...

I WAS THINKING THAT TOO, Catchfire!  Hilarious.

Well, here are some problematic lyrics right away:

Classist.

Racist/Sexist/Colonialist

Racist.

Racist.

Classist/Homophobic/Sexist

Classist (could be that he's making a statement about how society sees her, but somehow I doubt it from the other stuff they've written).

Sexist AND heteronormative.

Sexist, with a bit of racism thrown in for good measure.

Classist and sexist.

Caissa

I'm a big Elton John fan as well (Thanks for allowing for confession time, Michelle.)

I've always considered Saturday Night's All Right for Fighting to be a clebration of working class culture. Maybe I need to take a closer look at it. I really dislike the fact that HNIC has adopted it as its anthem.

ETA: The lyrics describe the working class neighbourhood I grew up in and the protagonost's attitude towards authority could be found in myself and many of my mates.

 

 

bekayne

Caissa wrote:

I'm a big Elton John fan as well (Thanks for allowing for confession time, Michelle.)

I've always considered Saturday Night's All Right for Fighting to be a clebration of working class culture. Maybe I need to take a closer look at it. I really dislike the fact that HNIC has adopted it as its anthem.

ETA: The lyrics describe the working class neighbourhood I grew up in and the protagonost's attitude towards authority could be found in myself and many of my mates.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-UsoB-XGSE&feature=player_embedded

Ripple

I don't know about classist, but this is problematic for me:

 

I'm looking for a dolly who'll see me right
I may use a little muscle to get what I need
I may sink a little drink and shout out "She's with me!"

 

 

 

Hoodeet

Are we willing to open the little Pandora's box of tv shows that some of the more progressive folk among us may be addicted to or at least have 

indulged in watching, knowing full well that every episode contributes to pushing the boundaries of acceptable law enforcement behaviour, or at the very least brainwashes the viewer by humanizing the protagonists?

24. Law & Order. NCIS.    ?? 

 

6079_Smith_W

As far as I am concerned that CSI stuff is creepy porn. It's one thing as a B slasher film, quite another polished up for prime time.

I remember a couple of times making my parents turn that shit off because they were watching it in front of our kids and not realizing how incredibly inappropriate it was. I have seen bits and pieces of episodes, and every time it has just repelled me.

Funny thing is, I am not absolutely opposed to gore or even schlock. I can think of things which are far stronger, but which worked for me. It is funny how it comes down to intent and manipulation. 

On a similar note, I remember reading an obituary for Carroll O'Connor. It was pointed out that a show like "All In the Family" could never have been made nowadays. THey walked a fine satirical line that would be impossible now.

 

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Ripple wrote:
I don't know about classist, but this is problematic for me:

 

I'm looking for a dolly who'll see me right
I may use a little muscle to get what I need
I may sink a little drink and shout out "She's with me!"

Yeah, this is obviously problematic and should in no way get a free pass, but this is a frequent issue in song lyrics. Think of eminem gettign stopped at the Canadian border, or the recent discussion on Dire Straits and "Money for Nothing." As someone who reads cultural texts for a living, virtually all of which have some degree of oppression built into them, Ithink it's important to question the way we hold art to a higher level of ethics than we do our everyday practices. For example, why is singing about violence and sexual assault singled out much more frequently than actual violence. Of course I'm not suggesting that anyone on babble does that, but it seems to me that Taupin is clearly ventriloquizing a voice of middle Britain that really exists. So why would we target him for writing such a lyric?

Part of the problem, as we all know (and this is especially visible in someone like the fan base of eminem who is also evoking a voice from the heartland of America that is present, dangerous and damaged), is how people take a certain uncritical pleasure in listening to or singing along with misogynist messages. Of course, even so-called or self-proclaimed "critical" listeners risk ignoring or disavowing the possibility that we might too take pleasure from the description of oppression. That's what I like about the article in the OP: it acknowledges the former but also the latter, and keeps an opening for debate and discussion to happen. The alternatives--e.g. "figuring out" a song like I did in the preceding paragraph, disengaging with a "all songs are racist/sexist/heteronormative/etc."--produce a closed listening or reading unwilling to engage with teh actual systems of oppression present in the song (for example) itself, or in our listening and enjoyment of it.

6079_Smith_W

@ CF

On the question of illustrating horrible things, one of the best examples I can think of is Pasolini's 120 Days of Sodom. 

For almost anyone, it is a terrible thing to sit through. On the other hand, I can think of no better illustration of fascism and brutality and resistance, especially when one knows the various backstories of the piece - Pasolini's, and Sade's.

As an aside, there was a discussion on CBC radio a few weeks ago about male nudity, and the contrast between phallic symbols (which generally denote power) and naked penises actually showing up on screen, which are usually either comic or a show of extreme vulnerability. The only exception I can think of is in Pasolini's film, when the guard, caught naked,  shows his defiance with a fist salute, and the fascists are, just for a moment, out of control and afraid.

 

Michelle

Ripple wrote:

I don't know about classist, but this is problematic for me:

 

I'm looking for a dolly who'll see me right
I may use a little muscle to get what I need
I may sink a little drink and shout out "She's with me!"

Oh, I meant to mention that too!  I'd forgotten about that line momentarily.

The reason I said the song is classist is because it's a complete stereotype and caricature of working class people as drunken louts who sexually assault women.  And in case people hadn't made the connection throughout the song, they spell it out for you at the end:

"I'm a juvenile product of the working class / Whose best friend floats in the bottom of a glass."

 

CMOT Dibbler

I like problematic things. I just bought and am enjoying season one of Downton Abbey, which politically speaking is a steaming pile of retrograde, classist chicken shit. I enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire, mainly brcause, ugly outsiders do all the important shit and the saga's main villains are beautiful. But I will acknowledge the writers concerns about GRRM's story. The black and brown people in his epic are oversexed charicatures. There is also a lot of sexism in a song of Ice and Fire. GRRM would know doubt argue that this adds realism to the books, but if he was so concerned with realism, why didn't he have Bran die a month after falling from that window? I wouldn't imagine quads and paras lived for a long time during the high middle ages...

CMOT Dibbler

oops!

CMOT Dibbler

hmmmm...

I'm wondering how useful it actually is for progressives to create massive blogs critiquing popular culture. It's fun throwing asurbic criticism at the corrupt institutions that provide us with entertainment, but in the end wouldn't be more helpful to create our own art, as opposed to engaging in a futile attempt to get the MSM to change its wicked ways through brutally sarcastic vlog and blog posts?

Caissa

CBC had a one hour special of Live Lies Bleeding, a ballet based on the songs of Elton John on TV last night. Jian Ghomeshi provided commentary after commercial breaks. Quite a good show by the Alberta Ballet troupe.

Slumberjack

I like some Rush songs, despite the influence of Ayn Rand's ideology upon Neil Peart, the band's prominent lyricist.

Caissa

I was listening to their Live in Cleveland album last week.

The following is from his Wikipaedia page:

The song "2112" focuses on the struggle of an individual against the collectivist forces of a totalitarian state. This became the band's breakthrough release, but also brought unexpected criticism, mainly because of the credit of inspiration Peart gave to Ayn Rand in the liner notes. "There was a remarkable backlash, especially from the English press, this being the late seventies, when collectivism was still in style, especially among journalists," Peart said. "They were calling us 'Junior fascists' and 'Hitler lovers.' It was a total shock to me".[39]

Weary of ideological fealty to Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, Peart has sought to remind listeners of his eclecticism and independence in interviews. He did not, however, try to argue in defence of Rand's views: "For a start, the extent of my influence by the writings of Ayn Rand should not be overstated. I am no one's disciple."[40]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Peart

6079_Smith_W

I heard an interview with Geddy Lee on the subject a year or so ago; he clearly distanced their work from Rand's politics. Peart's focus was on artistic freedom, he said. 

Not quite the same thing as what Peart says above, but good enough for me. After all, they aren't the ones who performed with a huge picture of Stephen Harper behind them.

And I don't think the problem is opposing totalitarianism nor anything they themselves wrote  (after all, Pink Floyd did the same thing without the backlash) but in the source material they used.

No one gets on their case about their promotion of a friendly patriarchal hierarchy in "Closer to the Heart". Must be the catchy tune.

I suppose I have them to thank too, because I read Anthem around that time because of their music. It was enough of that tripe for me.