NDP and the military III

Yeah, that's a sure way to get elected - advocate eliminating the DND.

What I would like the NDP to advocate is dropping the F35 entirely and instead engage in strictly national defense, and search and rescue.

No overseas adventures unless we're invited in for rebuilding in times of natural emergencies. DND could also be used for their engineering expertise in building infrastructure in the north when requested.

Nor worry, Pete MacKay will rescue them in his taxpayer-funded rescue and fishing and leisure helicopter. I'll bet he'd consider leasing it back to taxpayers at a good rate.

With climate change, the Northwest Passage is apparently wide open now. That poses, I suppose, some kind of challenge.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

It is okay you guys, keep buying into the pro-military/war party. No change required.

They are people with families.

And it's not their fault that they take orders from corrupt stooges in Ottawa who, in turn, accept Canada's marching orders from Warshington without question. 

It's not the workers' fault in Canada that we basically have no federal government other than the current cult of impotence occupying the halls of powerlessness in Ottawa.

Let's place blame where it lies: with the Reform Party retreads pretending to run the country and their predecessors.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I have several friends in the military who never killed anyone. It is possible to work for the military and not drop bombs on or shoot people to death.

 

That is fucking horseshit and you know it. It does not matter what job you do in the military, you are guilty of murder and war crimes. All those support staff and jobs are used to sustain the people at the frontlines killing people in the name big business and pro-military parties like the NDP.

What did you think to Hitler and his top Nazis waging humanitarian warfare in Yugoslavia and orchestrating the Holocaust? Should Nuremberg lawyers have ignored the architects of war crimes and, instead, prosecuted low-ranking officers and desk jockeys? What about all those thousands of high-ranking SS officers who slid into Canada and the U.S. unchecked after the war?

At what point will you decide to slide some blame herr Harper's way? What about the Shawinigan Strangler who put Canadian troops in Afghanistan in the first place and handed Omar Khadr to the Yanks to be tortured and basic human rights violated?

What about Paulie Pockets Martin who lied to the NDP and Canada's Parliament concerning what new role the troops would serve Uncle Sam in Kandahar by 2005?

They are laying off 1100 civilian employees of the defence dept, 50 of them in research positions in Nova Scotia. Another several hundred in Quebec - both NDP friendly provinces. Vindictive Tories are punishing those provinces for daring to vote NDP.

And herr Harper has pledged to maintain regular army and fighting force numbers in service for Uncle Sam's agenda on the ready-aye-ready!

Happy?

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I have several friends in the military who never killed anyone. It is possible to work for the military and not drop bombs on or shoot people to death.

 

That is fucking horseshit and you know it. It does not matter what job you do in the military, you are guilty of murder and war crimes. All those support staff and jobs are used to sustain the people at the frontlines killing people in the name big business and pro-military parties like the NDP.

So how about those in search and rescue? Aside from the crews, there are those in positions supporting SAR.

Check out the topographical needs of military bases. Downtown doesn't do.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

The cuts are occurring equally across on provinces and by my speculation are affecting more Conservative ridings than NDP or Liberal ridings.  

So now it's not about high-ranking war criminals - it's about Harper being fair about job cuts for everyone but the trained killers and foot soldiers in the service of empire eh, slippery?

Give my regards to your friend Steve Harper.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

It does not matter what job you do in the military, you are guilty of murder and war crimes.

There would have been no Red Army were it not for the Czarist Russian Army.  They didn't all materialize out of nowhere.  Who pays these criminals twice a month by the way?  And did you cheat on your taxes this year, or dutifully report everything on the official forms as required?

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

So SJ, you support the army as long as it is your army? I also beleive the Red Army has raped its way across Germany in 44 and 45.

Straw man!

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Those also committed war crimes in Afghanistan in the 70s and 80s.

And don't forget the many violent misogynists and right wing extremists which US taxpayers, Saudis and Pakistan's army intelligence aided and abetted with billions of dollars in aid money and weaponry, too. Or was theocratic feudalism a turn-on back then?

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

 

Okay Fidel, the NDP is the great political entity ever. They have never made a mistake ever, they are like gods and should have all our praise and devotion.

In fact, right now I am going to sacrifice a small lamb in Jack Layton's memory and pray that he guides me over this weekend.

That's more like it!

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Fidel, you would make a good fascist soldier, never questioning, undying loyalty to the cause, full of praise to the leaders and the party.

Not that I am calling you a fascist soldier, you just have all the qualities of one.

And let's not forget the actual fascists who slaughtered and raped their way across Eastern Europe, Balkans, Russia and Ukraine in the 1940s. 

Long live the mujahideen and holy ol' anticommunist jihad!!

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Well SJ, why did you not revolt? Why did you not lead by example? Why did you not destroy the military machine from within? Am I partly to blame, yes I am. However I am trying to change the system in the ways I can.

I'll leave you here on this point with your own words.

I think a good rule of thumb around here involves extending the benefit of the doubt, depending on the circumstance.

Opposing civil-service job cuts seems like a perfectly logical stance for the NDP to take, no? .... I mean, just because the jobs in question occur within the DND, arguing to keep them doesn't automatically translate, deviously, into some new NDP way of saying, "Support the Troops!"... does it?

although, now that you mention it, no redeeming proviso, like "Bring 'em Home!", seems implicit there, either ....

hmmm.... and Mulcaire does rhyme with Blair.....

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

Policywonk wrote:

So how about those in search and rescue? Aside from the crews, there are those in positions supporting SAR.

Those SAR positions are used for training opportunities and to give frontline soldiers breaks from frontline duties.

It is all about training, command and control. SAR is used to develop soldiers for active combat.

You really don't think that all those staffs used to support SAR missions have 25 year careers at search and rescue centres?

So you'd prefer not to have SAR at all?

DND should be about defense, not invading other countries. I support keeping the Canadian military, but not for overseas adventures - and downsozing it a bit, and cancelling the F35s altogether. Keep the F18s as long as possible, just for territorial defense, however that's defined, then put out the most open and transparent procurement possible for replacements - but with two engines and landing capability in the north. Finally, as I wrote earlier, DND would also be on call to use their expertise and staffing to help out when requested anywhere in Canada to help with difficult infrastructure, including the north and isolated aboriginal communities.

I live in an area where we have trained Canadian Rangers by the way. For some strange reason, the military came in and trained them on the operation of 50 calibre machine guns.

ETA: The military budget definitely needs to be pared back. Maybe by half.

..back in the late 90's jean chrétien led a trade mission to southeast asia. on that particular junket he took along military equipment manufactuers and provincial ministers. representing bc was premier glen clark and a couple other ministers.

..shortly after this trip i read a lefty magazine that reported the trip was all about selling canadian military equipment to governments ie indonesia who was ruled by suharto at the time. the article also reported that there were a couple of those manufactures in bc.

..i was very troubled by this report as i had just voted for joy macphail so i wrote a letter to the ndp government providing background and asking four questions.

1) was it true that clark and other bc ministers went on this junket?

2) what was their policy on human rights when it came to selling military equip to the likes of suharto?

3) were the companies making this equip get tax breaks?

i forget the 4th question.

..after hearing no reply after 2 mon i went tyo macphail's constituency office where my questions were met with hostility. I did not let that deter me and remained there until they gave me the name of dan miller and that i should write to him. so i did. about a month later i received a letter from miller's office. i was to get the run-a-round. yes i was told they did go on this trip and got a spiel about the economy. further the letter said that the human rights question had been sent to that particular dept, the military equip issue went to the dept that dealt with small arms and the tax break question went to taxation. i never heard from them again though i complained in writing to macphail. they behaved just like every other gov in all manner of ways.

..so it's not like we have a blank slate as to how the fed ndp will behave once in power. the only realistic argument i made in their defence was that they were better then the the libs or cons. after europe i don't say that anymore. i realize that the disaster crisis of capitalism has intensified and there is a vicious desperation to get at every resource and exploit as many human beings to the fullest for the benefit of the few. the europen social democrats had no real defence against this capitalism other than calling on the population/social movements to defend it but they didn't. so they became what they said they were different from. the ndp (the party) in canada are doing the same. like heros going it alone. so the crisis will have it's way. military spending/nato will not change. saying it will is not enough. campaign promises are not enough. it needs to be shown in real and clear policy along with a plan on how it will be achieved. and that begins with open dialogue with canadians on what direction we should be moving in rather than playing the vanguard party that knows what's best for the rest of us.

..your the one deflecting fidel.

New Democrats call on Canada to support international arms treaty MPs call on government join with international community and sign treaty

Quote:

"There is currently no international law with standard rules that governs the trade of arms," said Denise Savoie (Victoria). "With the negotiations for the Arms Trade Treaty approaching fast, this is an opportunity for us all to show our support for an initiative that would prevent arms from falling into the wrong hands."

"Wrong hands"? Is that like when the Gladio Gang arms Al-CIA'duh "covertly" in order for Al-Qa'eda and its affiliates to overthrow governments in oil-rich or otherwise geostrategically significant countries as far as the "Atlantic Alliance" heavily-armed nations are concerned?

I don't know why this thread had to get derailed into a discussion about the personal reponsibility of DND employees. I had hoped for a discussion about what the interest of canada's social-democratic party might be in opposing staffing cuts in the imperialist war machine. 

Or maybe that's a point that everyone takes for granted and needs no further elaboration or criticism?