No Zero policy-deux

Caissa wrote:

I believe that there should be consequences for decisions. Where I differ is on mixing consequences into a grade for a student.  That changes the metric in my mind. A grade should reflect an assessment of a piece of work created by the student.

Okay, so I think that is the premise of your argument that a student should not receive a zero for not turning in a particular piece of work.

Can you explain that a bit more?  Why should there be no "mixing [of] consequences"?

I raised my son using consequences and he is doing well. I don't see how giving zeros is going to help many students and I think that for the students who are most likely to get a zero it will just turn them off of school even more. If giving zeros worked then the graduation rates and overall success of our previous students must be what we are aiming for.  Seems to me an approach that  tries to push kids who don't fit the mold into becoming responsible just pushes them out the door shortly after reaching the age to leave school.  That is of course if they weren't first suspended for missing classes.

We have serious issues with educating kids especially teenagers.  They are teenagers which to me means by definition full of raging hormones and doubt.  Of course teenagers need to learn these things that is why you "harp" at them and then are extremely pleased when they get it by 21 instead of 25.  Telling teenagers to be on time for many of them is like telling them not to sleep for 12 hours a day.

@ Caissa - if you're going to measure strictly on the quality of work, then my kid would have straight As and zero motivation to work at her weak spot.  Thanks but no thanks!

The time limit is part of the assignment.  It does not, in that case, taint the integrity of the assignment.

I'd be interested to hear what those are, Caissa, and how natural or arbitrary they are.  One thing that I've found with my kids is that they're very keen to what seems connected and what doesn't.  Not getting a mark on something you haven't done seems pretty clear.

I was talking with Ms B about this last night, and she seemed to think the only thing that really got her attention was the zero she might get.  The other, softer consequences were things she figured she could live with.  The other component of getting a zero was me knowing about it.  That made her motivated to work a little harder at it, even though she fought us on being involved at first (and still does, periodically).  So I'm looking at this through a lens of having had to deal directly with the issue for the last 9 months, having some trial and error over consequence and rewards.  Bearing in mind, of course, that I'm approaching this as a parent and I don't know normal - I just know my own kids.

Conflating two issues in a discussion of something that is multidimensional hardly seems like something to be derided. What is school policy for, including the issues around any no zero policy, if it is not to have as many kids as possible achieve their personal potential?

So Timebandit what are your expectations of teenagers? I personally don't expect teenagers to become adults before they mature.  That is what the maturing process is for.  I also think that few teenagers react positively to things like zeros or even no zeros without a motivated teacher trying to understand who the kid is and then making a connection. 

Consequences are important but as a useful motivator they are irrelevant unless you know the actual child involved.  What motivates your daughter might not have motivated my son.  A set of consequences that my son might find a learning moment might be met with a shrug by another kid who doesn't care about the same things.  I have a hard time seeing the issue of zero or no zero being a useful debate starting point for talking about how to achieve better outcomes for children.

ETA

Cross posted with you Timebandit and it seems that we are making the same point about kids being individuals.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 I also think that few teenagers react positively to things like zeros or even no zeros without a motivated teacher trying to understand who the kid is and then making a connection. 

Who said anything about not having mindful teachers? That is crucial in my mind, and frankly I think that in some cases that includes setting up clear boundaries and requirements and following through on them.

And bear in mind, this policy isn't something that can be kept in reserve for those who need it; it is across the board. That is the main reason why I think it is a mistake.

Caissa wrote:

You don't grade students Sven, you grade artifacts that they create.

But those "artifacts" are a direct result a student internalizing and adopting powerful character skills (or not).  So, you are already rewarding students who internalize and use those character skills.  In that sense, you really are grading the student.

I don't like you equating the ability to hit a deadline as a "character skill", Sven.  It's a sort of essentialist thinking that sounds like more of an is or isn't, good or bad, rather than just skills that can be learned, like tying your shoelaces.

Timebandit wrote:

I don't like you equating the ability to hit a deadline as a "character skill", Sven.  It's a sort of essentialist thinking that sounds like more of an is or isn't, good or bad, rather than just skills that can be learned, like tying your shoelaces.

As I said, I'm not talking about "moral character," Timebandit.  I'm talking about "performance character" (see the New York Times piece I linked to above) -- those are learned skills.

Timebandit wrote:

Still, I think use of the term "character" has a certain connotation, and not one I'm entirely comfortable with.  What's wrong with just calling it a skill?  Why do we need to connote the innate value judgment?

Well, it is a value judgment.  Any time you say that it's good to have Skill X and bad (or "less preferable," if you wish) to not have Skill X, you are making a value judgment.

Caissa wrote:

That other issue is we rarely measure what a student learns but rather attempt to measure what a student knows. pre-testing and post-testing would get us closer to measuring learning.

Well, measuring what a student knows is probably more important than measuring their incremental knowledge acquisition over any given period of time.  After all, if you're asked to fix a car, perform a surgery, solve a problem of any sort, give someone a shot, drive a vehicle, or every other thing that needs to be done in life, all that matters is: Do you know how do to it?  Do you have the requisite knowledge to perform the task?

It's probably very useful for an educator to know where a student sits on a particular knowledge spectrum, so that the teacher can focus on the right issues for that student.  But, at the end of the day, does the student know the subject or not?

Caissa wrote:

Pre and post testing doesn't preclude you frrom measuring what a student knows,; it just also allows you to measure what a student has learnt.

Fair enough.

Timebandit have fun.

My youngest is now 24 and he has exceeded all my expectations.  He too has told me that he did as little as possible in high school until it was required.  In grade 9 and 10 and into 11 his marks were barely tolerable but in grade 12 his marks were C's and B's and he passed all required courses.  His school made him and every other students aware of the university and college entrance requirements.  He still goofed off and had late assignments when he was 20 and in a community college taking UT course. They threw him out for 6 months so he went back to work.  He went back to college after serving his academic probation and got mostly A's.  After a year of that his marks were high enough that he transferred to UBC and is still getting excellent marks.

I see that as a maturing process and yes consequences are involved. If a kid doesn't care about late tests and assignments it doesn't matter whether they get to graduate anyways because when they do they will most likely be unemployed until they mature enough to become responsible. My son grew up in a privileged family with a single Dad who worked as a professional.  He has always seen university as an option unlike most of my nieces and nephews.  Trying to coerce a teenager into doing anything in my opinion is a hopeless cause. My anecdotal evidence is they only listen when the threat is immediate and after that it is like they never heard it.

6078 just because I commented that a motivated teacher is a requirement for learning outcomes it does not mean I said that anyone had said it was not a requirement. Like you I like to give my views and that was a view. Please read more carefully for logical coherence so I don't have to be the subject of your little mini lectures for no reason.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

blah blah blah I'm better than you are.

I have to agree with your assessment and acknowledge that not only are you superior to me in every way but your opinions are always the correct ones. 

when i was in high school it wasn't as rigid.  it was like 20% of your grade lost if it was late, and 10% for each day after that and if you had a good reason for not being on time they could waive that, like "our house burned down this week and it was impossible to complete this stuff on time, can i have a few more days?"

on the other hand, i think it is important to learn that in life you have to be on time for a lot of stuff, and a lot of the time kids don't complete stuff on time not because they couldn't but because they just didn't want to.  Not to mention it makes the teachers job much harder when assignments are coming in all over the place and how long can the kid hold out before they finally get a zero?  days, weeks?  

this brings up a lot of questions for me...i wish i could talk to my 15 year old self!

@ kropotkin - Thanks, I'm havig a blast with the pair of them!  :)

I take your point and it's awesome that your son has found his way.  I've often said I don't want to pat myself on the back until they're both over 25 and not living in my basement.  You don't know what the future holds, for sure, and there are kids who "get it" earlier and others who do later.  My elder daughter has expressed a desire to not only go to university, but Oxford.  Lofty ambition, but I'm not going to argue with it.  She's also really involved in music and plays in the provincial youth orchestra, so she's often got a (self-imposed!) tight schedule.  So we've had to ask her a lot of questions about priorities and help her work around the commitments. She's smart, ambitious and prone to lose her homework or not bother with assignments in subjects she doesn't like (her Health mark is not good, and it's possibly the easiest class).  I'm hoping we can get some of those skills in place in high school so that some of the big ambitions aren't out of reach for her.  Getting zeroes for the first time rather than teachers making exceptions because she's bright was a heckuva wake-up call.

We haven't had problems with getting reasonable extensions for good reasons, either, or an unwillingness to look at work that has been handed in late.  I don't think a completely inflexible system is workable.  But I think that the no-zero policy is actually a little less flexible overall.

I think there are many aspects of this which are difficult, in that they come down to personal opinion on teaching style, and as well, personal values, politics, and relationships. You probably know better than I that the school system  can create an incredible amount of stress. I know two teachers who have had nervous breakdowns, many who have left the profession, and a couple who were targetted for political reasons. 

On the other hand, two of the teachers who have our kids in their classes decided to stay on, and I am thankful for it.

I don't see any point in debating either, because none of us are absolutely right. 

And really, I don't think it matters, I think it only takes one teacher with a style that resonates with a student to do the trick. I can think of three or four in my school career who had a positive impact, and the rest just fade away, or are relegated to the pile of bad examples.

The third letter offers some other "consequences" that my kid wouldn't consider consequences.  Sorry.  I also notice that this guy is not a classroom teacher - I have to wonder when was the last time he dealt with 3D teenagers. 

The issue for us is not the learning - she knows her stuff.  It's getting her to cooperate by demonstrating the learning so the teacher knows where she's at.  Making her do the work after school or at lunch hour?  Hah!  My devious little duckling would totally find a way to circumvent that. 

I keep hearing that giving a zero won't work, but I haven't heard a single, concrete strategy that would adequately replace it.

@kropotkin:  The issue was never issuing zeroes on report cards.  The issue was giving a zero on an assignment that could be completed and given a mark on after the fact if the student so chose.  You are basing your objection on a draconian policy that NO-ONE has advocated.  Straw man argument.

Personally, I think a zero on an assignment is actually less draconian than an incomplete, less expensive and a whole lot easier to deal with than summer school.  Your response also presupposes that none of those other factors - removal of priveleges, video games, etc. - aren't already in play.  Having to go to summer school because of an incomplete is functionally no different than getting a zero or failing grade on a number of assignments.  So what difference does it actually make?  How is that functionally better than getting a wake-up call during the year?