War in Syria

A_J wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Every other country makes Stinger equivalents of the shoulder launch or air-to-air type. That one looks like the same heat seeking variety but mounted on the tail wing of an aircraft. Details, details. 

So what you're saying is the missiles might not have actually come from the U.S. or the CIA at all? I mean, if "every other country" is making stinger knock-offs, why pin them on anyone in particular?

Syrian opposition fighters acquire Stinger missiles: sources

Quote:

The source said both Turkey and the United States are aware of the arms delivery.

The source, which asked not to be named, said “financing has probably come from Saudi Arabia, but the origin might be different.”

The U.S. Department of Defense declined to comment.

I'm guessing the heat-seeking missiles are most likely American-made and probably not supplied by either Russia, Iran, China or any other SCO member nation. And since the U.S. admitted to supplying Stinger missiles to Afghan warlords and mercenaries in 1980's Afghanistan, they are looking good for blame in this instance given the already established geopolitical posturing on the matter.

A_J wrote:

But Bec's point was that the picture is of (I believe) the Sidewinder missile - an air-to-air missile with a range of some 30+ km.  A Stinger is man-portable and has a range of less than 5 km and is less than 1/5th the size/weight.

So what?

A_J wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Also the South would have still lost.

The Spanish Republicans lost too, despite being backed by an outside power (the Soviet Union) and foreign fighters - but we're supposed to ignore that, because the FSA are evil precisely because they are also (allegedly) backed by an outside power and foreign fighters.  And there has been a paucity of evidence for either.

Hitler, general motors, ford and studebaker delivered thousands of trucks and other vehicles to the fascists in Spain. And the luftwaffe was helpful in levelling Guernica. They say Hitler could not have invaded Europe without help from GM and Ford. Spanish fascists were on the receiving end, too. 

The point is that it is illegal to aid and abet terrorism in another country. But that's what the U.S. Government and its Gladio allies have done in numerous countries since the cold war era. They'd squawk like hell and consider it an act of war if other nations were to fund and arm the many right wing militias and anti-government groups in the U.S. and surrounding countries. U.S. political and social tensions might be a powder keg today for all anyone knows. All that's missing is a lit match.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Big difference wouldn't you say?

They are both heat-seeking missiles, which is all I suggested the two varieties have in common. And I was only taking a wild guess as to the one mounted on the tail wing. Turns out you proved it to be correct. Thnx. 

Bit of a mystery cropping-up in images and video from the conflict: strange dirt and shrapnel filled "barrel bombs" being employed by the government.

There are a few theories floating arond:

• The government is running out of munitions and has to improvise;
• False-flag IED's: drop improvised explosives willy-nilly and when they kill or injury civilians the Assad government can point to the work of "terrorists" which, no doubt, RT and the Iranian government/Press TV will eagerly repeat (and certain folks here will enthusiastically lap up);
• They are testing an improvised delivery system for chemical weapons;
• Simply balast for aircraft carrying an unbalanced weapon load.

On the topic of non-improvised explosives: more evidence of cluster bombs being used by the government.

Not-so Free Syrian Army committing war crimes Warning: Video shows POW's being murdered

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-natos-pan-arab-terrorist-blitz... Qaeda and NATO’s Pan-Arab Terrorist Blitzkrieg[/size][/url]

Quote:

Western policy makers admit that NATO’s operations in Libya have played the primary role in emboldening Al Qaeda’s AQIM faction (Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb). The Fortune 500-funded Brookings Institution’s Bruce Riedel in his article, “The New Al Qaeda Menace,” admits that AQIM is now heavily armed thanks to NATO’s intervention in Libya, and that AQIM’s base in Mali, North Africa, serves as a staging ground for terrorist activities across the region. ...

Image: Libyan terrorist manning a tank during NATO’s 2011 overthrow of the Libyan government. The media expects the public to believe placard waving peaceful demonstrators had somehow, in just days, transitioned intotank driving, jet flying rebel forces – just like in Hollywood.

Quote:

LIFG terrorists promptly turned both east to Syria and west to Mali beyond their borders – a logistical matter they had perfected during their operations in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade. LIFG commander Abdul Hakim Belhaj, as early as November 2011, arrived on the Turkish-Syrian border to provide cash, weapons, and LIFG terrorist fighters, overseen by Western intelligence along with US funding and arms laundered through Gulf Cooperative Council (GCC) members such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Since then Libyan militants have been confirmed to be leading entire brigades of foreign fighters inside Syria.

All babblers opposed to Al CIA'duh terrorism say aye. We should push for a babble declaration of opposition to the U.S.-backed Al Qa'eda terrorism and all. All those opposed to U.S.-backed terrorism in the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa etc say, count me in! Or even an aye-aye will do. Except for aye-aye, Uncle Sam, because our corrupt stooges in Ottawa do enough of that already.

It's a wise strategic move to disrupt the regimes airpower. It's pretty simple.

So, what? Assad's the "good guy" then?

As for the links, c'mon. Most of these links are a joke. Some 25 year old WASP dude on his webcam in Japan's what passes for a Syria expert on Iranian state TV?

From Israel's major daily Haaretz :

Quote:

Al-Qaida threatens Hezbollah over its support of the Syrian regime
....
A new ally has joined Israel in the struggle against Hezbollah. Al-Qaida recently published a harsh attack on Hezbollah, in which it calls on Shi’ites to leave the renounce the organization “if they do not wish to be the target of Al-Qaida attacks.”

.... Al-Qaida is a Sunni organization, and its leaders see Hezbollah’s rule in Lebanon and the minority Alawite rule in Syria as a reality that must be forever changed. Al-Majd does not hesitate to threaten all of Lebanon, should Hezbollah continue to support the Assad regime. “Hezbollah’s existence is a threat to Lebanon’s security and tourism industry,” he said, hinting that his organization would not think twice before planning an attack on tourists in Lebanon, should the state continue to strengthen Hezbollah and its leaders....

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/al-qaida-threatens-hezbollah-ove...

contrarianna wrote:

From Israel's major daily Haaretz :

Quote:

Al-Qaida threatens Hezbollah over its support of the Syrian regime
....
A new ally has joined Israel in the struggle against Hezbollah. Al-Qaida recently published a harsh attack on Hezbollah, in which it calls on Shi’ites to leave the renounce the organization “if they do not wish to be the target of Al-Qaida attacks.”

.... Al-Qaida is a Sunni organization, and its leaders see Hezbollah’s rule in Lebanon and the minority Alawite rule in Syria as a reality that must be forever changed. Al-Majd does not hesitate to threaten all of Lebanon, should Hezbollah continue to support the Assad regime. “Hezbollah’s existence is a threat to Lebanon’s security and tourism industry,” he said, hinting that his organization would not think twice before planning an attack on tourists in Lebanon, should the state continue to strengthen Hezbollah and its leaders....

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/al-qaida-threatens-hezbollah-ove...

Not good.

It's getting ugly, more and more its getting to be about religion. Not all conflicts are two sided, some can grow to be three or four sided.

NDPP wrote:

Taylor: Gadhafi Gone, But Another Monster Hatched  - by Scott Taylor

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/132478-taylor-gadhafi-gone-but-anot...

"The civil uprising in Syria is now entering its 18th month and the level of violence continues to escalate. While Western leaders voice concern for the safety of the Syrian people, they continue to furnish the Free Syrian Army rebels with increasingly sophisticated weaponry. In the oversimplified Western propaganda, Assad is portrayed as an evil despot who must be deposed by freedom loving, pro-democracy Syrian civil fighters...What is an entire Libyan brigade doing in Syria?..."

A MUST NOT READ for Babble's various al-Qaida and imperial apologists, (aka "humanitarian interventionists").

All Taylor's major assertions of fact are verifiable, yet in this thread there are
some whom still dishonestly deny the major role of foreign fighters in Syria, even though a minute's Google News search would bring up  an avalanche of major mainstream publications including Reuters, NYT, Haaretz, etc. which confirm otherwise.
 
The more sentient imperial apologists have moved on from the absurd denial of foreign fighters and terrorists in Syria, to an embrace of them, as Scott Taylor (and my previous post), indicates:

Quote:

....Assad’s claims had to be denounced as the delusional ravings of a hated dictator who cannot bring himself to believe that his own people have taken up arms against him.

Over the ensuing months, the portrayal of Assad as a demon has become so complete that even the reality of foreign Islamic fundamentalist in Syria is being hailed as positive.

Though I frequently disagree with you, Bec, I wasn,t thinking of you with that post.
Apologetics is defending a position through argument, (though, your point is well taken if REASONED argument is meant).
The general position taken by the apologists for intervention, (in this thread and extending back through all the Syrian threads and into the Libyan threads) sometimes explicitly, and sometime with only baiting innuendo, is that if you take an anti-imperialist position, are against the massive involvement of the West, and their support for foreign jihadists in Syrian regime change, then you are an "Assad-lover". If you look again, even is this late thread, you will see several people maintaining the  notion of "precious little evidence" of foreign involvement.

@ contrarianna: My bad, I took your post as at me. Left Turn was spot on with the exception he left out the role religion is starting to play in this. The only Muslims I know personally and talk about this all the time tend to think it's more about the split between Shia and Sunni Islam than we here think. ( I even talk about you here and some of your views with them.) 

Their father left Lebanon in the early 80’s because of the fighting there and has no love for the Assad family. He is very worried about the fighting spreading to Lebanon and reigniting the civil war he once fled.

Left Turn wrote:

....

My fundamental position is that of support for the right of the Syrian people to self-determination....

It's fairly simple, in theory.

Self-determination means just that.
The concept depends on the notion of sovereignty of a nation state and the right for the people with that state, not necessarily the government, to determine what the government is to be. This can involve revolution, but it does NOT involve other states and outside armed factions  "helping" "self-determination" along. 

One does not have  to know the level of Syrian support for Assad or Al Qaeda, or foreign fighters or the small minority who are physically fighting for some concept of Western freedom--or people just wanting the slaughter just to stop--in order to be in favor of self-determination. 

There is only one way to support self-determination from outside Syria and that is to be opposed to your government's direct and indirect material involvement in this slaughter. Anything less is to support interventionist imperialism. In Canada, that means, among other things, being opposed to your government providing money to unregistered "humanitarian aid" organizations:

Quote:

....But Baird’s announcement prompted questions about why the relatively new organization received foreign aid when there are more established groups on the ground.

Some media reports have linked the group to a charity with an office in Pakistan that was once run by alleged al-Qaida financier Ahmed Said Khadr, whose son Omar is currently languishing behind bars in Guantanamo Bay.

Another report Wednesday suggested Canadian Relief for Syria was chosen because it would be better able to ensure opposition forces received care....

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/08/16/baird-reverses-decision-to-send-medic...

Putin: Using AQ in Syria Like Sending Gitmo Inmates to Fight (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/vladimir-putin-exclusive-interview-481/

"In an RT exclusive premiere, President Putin gives his first post-inauguration interview speaking in depth with RT's Kevin Owen ahead of the APEC summit in Vladivostok. 'We should stop trying to impose unacceptable, dead-end solutions to the Syrian crisis.."

'Foreign Islamists Seek to Turn Syria into Sharia State'

http://rt.com/news/syria-rebels-assad-islamists-699/

"About half of the rebel fighters in Syria are foreign Islamists who aren't interested in toppling the Assad regime. Instead they're seeking to implement Sharia law throughout the country.."

'Foreign Intervention in Syria Not a Hollywood Movie Ending with a Happy Kiss' (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/syria-moniquet-interview-intervention-167/

"A former French spy explained to RT that Syria and its neighborhood are a melting pot of religious and social groups and stirring it could spill over into a bloody conflict.."

Foreign Backed Insurgents in Syria Can Turn Against Turkey: Analyst (and vid)

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/09/09/260644/turkey-concerned-about-its-r...

Interview with Dr Webster Griffin Tarpley

Partying? Where'd you get that idea form?

You compare joining  the FSA cut-throats to the MacPaps? How ridiculous!

France To Fund/Arm Al Qaeda in Syria  -  by Tony Cartalucci

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2012/09/france-to-fundarm-al-qaeda-in-s...

"France has announced that it will be funding and arming terrorists operating along Syria's border, offering them heavy weapons, just as they did in Libya last year.."

To have the foreigners fighting in Syrian compared to the Mac Paps is an insult to their memory. 

Read some history they were anti capitalist revolutionaries not religious zealots.  A better comparison if you want to use the Spanish Civil war would be the RCAF in Libya as the Condor Squad in Spain and Tripoli as Canada's Guernica.

If you need a western comparison for the evil religious mercenaries roaming the streets of Syria committing terrorist acts then they are the murderous Crusaders who also wanted to destabilize and rule what we now call Syria.

the link said, in its first sentence, individual Canadians "have no right" to intervene. If we accept this blanket prohibition of D'oh's pathetic blog, that takes out the Mac Paps.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

evil religious mercenaries roaming the streets of Syria

ndpp's french spy link wrote:

I do not think we have Al-Qaeda fighting on the streets of Aleppo, because it does not make sense

Mac Paps: uhh, yeah... That's what I said. Glad you came around.

I was using someone else's post to point out the holes in the oft repeated canard here: that the Syrian people love their violent hereditary dictator, and that the unrest is strictly the product of outside interference rather than internal conflict.

Other than that, you don't seem to be able to follow a sequence of discussion without getting confused, so refuting your non-sequiturs and tangents doesn't really interest me.

Analysis: Anti-Islam film diverts world's attention from Syrian civil war

Quote:

For the embattled Syrian regime, the crudely produced film mocking Islam that has unleashed fury across the Muslim world could not have come at a better time.

Images of furious protesters targeting Western diplomatic sites in Libya, Egypt, Pakistan and elsewhere have diverted the world's gaze from the bloodstained streets of Syria, where President Bashar Assad is trying to crush an 18-month-old uprising.

The crisis over the film also has reinvigorated militant rhetoric that U.S. and Israel are the real enemies of Muslims, taking the heat off of both Assad and his loyal and powerful ally in neighbouring Lebanon, the militant group Hezbollah.

On Tuesday, Syria's Cabinet condemned the movie, titled "Innocence of Muslims." In its first official reaction, the Cabinet said the film about the Prophet Muhammad is "cheap and provocative," adding that it's "part of a Western project that aims to infringe upon the nation's heritage and symbols ... as a prelude to control its potentials and wealth."

It remains to be seen whether the controversy will result in any lasting gains for Syria or for Hezbollah, whose reputation has suffered severely for siding with the Assad regime even after supporting revolts in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and Bahrain.

Assad better do what he’s got to do while the world (and babble) isn’t looking.  

Are you saying media attention on Syria is the same since this film thing came to light?

Further to the above, I have since read the August 15 U.N. report, which seems quite credible and concludes that the Houla Massacre was the work of Shabiba working in concert with the Syrian Army. It discusses the Frankfurter Allgemeinezeitung report and explains why it rejects the arguments presented there. There's a link to it on the Wikipedia "Houla Massacre" article.

Manufacturing Dissent: The Truth About Syria (and vid)

http://tipggita32.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/manufacturing-dissent-the-tru...

"Manufacturing Dissent is a documentary about the psychological warfare the media and political establishment of the West and their allies aimed at facilitating the US, European and Israeli agenda of getting rid of the current Syrian government.."

It IS a progressive social forum. That's why supporting violent hereditary dictators isn't a prerequisite.