Malaysian plane crash

ikosmos wrote:

Webgear wrote:

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

 

"Su-25 w/ R-73 VYMPEL missiles could fly at 6KM high, restart to climb, lock on, fire".

 

See The Russian Military Finally Speaks.

 

Yeah but the problem is those types of missiles are infrared guided (heat seeking) missile. It would have easily locked on too, tracked and slammed right into one of flight MH17 two big fat hot engines (check out the picture of a 777 below). While the warhead on air to air missiles tend to be rather small compared to surface to air missiles the impact and explosion would have most likely blown the engine off or made it disintegrate almost on the spot... it also would have most likely caught the aircraft on fire. There are huge fuel tanks in the wings around the engines (as well as in the center of the aircraft) the chance there wouldn't be a fire after such an impact and nearby explosion would be very slime.

The crash was videotaped and covered from several angles. You can clearly see there was no smoke trail leading to the impact on the ground. Fire and smoke only appeared AFTER the biggest part of the jet hit the ground. It would appear the aircraft was broke apart after losing flight integrity for some reason. An explosion from a proximity warhead (it blows up near the aircraft, it doesn't have to hit it) could disable the aircraft enough to where it would lose control and tumble to the ground. During the decent it would break into pieces (which we saw fall through the black smoke from the impact).

I'd be curious to know were the engines fell and what shape they were in. The investigators would be able to tell if one of them were hit by a missile. Seeing how the SU-24 shoot down theory is Russia's official version of events now you'd think they and their Pro Russian cronies would be in a hurry to show the world evidence of a missile hit on those engines. 

Engine number 1....

Engine number 2

Both fell with the main body of the aircraft and are relativly intact. That is inportant in determining how the aircraft was brought down.

Why did it take so long to release the information about the SU-25?

[url=http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1120183]UN Secrutyi Council condemns the downing of Malaysian plane[/url]

It's a unanimous vote, so no need for posturing about whose atrocities are bigger.

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine  -  by Robert Parry

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-u...

"...What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that US intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what looks like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered about the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the US mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the US State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system  is 'Russian made', a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated..."

ikosmos wrote:

10 more pointed questions for the US and its Ukrainian puppet regime:

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

 

4. Why did Kiev deploy Buk missile system right next to the militia-controlled area straight ahead of the tragedy?

5. On the day of the crash Kiev increased activity on its Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are components of the Buk system in the area. Why?

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

Quote:

Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

7. Why was the military jet flying at almost the same time and the same altitude with a passenger plane?

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

RT wrote:

The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

Where is the link for the picture? I want to see it in detail.

Here's an English language version of that story (mentioned in the New Republic piece, above) about Igor Strelkov claiming the plane was full of dead people when it took off from Amsterdam:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/mh17-ukraine-rebels_n_5603470.h...

Quote:

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."

ikosmos wrote:

I would say, based on a number of factors, that it is about 90% likely that the Ukrainian regime shot this plane down and say 10% chance of the self-defence forces doing it. The former ... would be deliberate and the latter in error.

Really? Based on what factors, exactly,  other than your desire for the blame to lie with them? And how did you come up with those numbers?

A guardian piece on Igor Bezler, the man suspected of doing it:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/three-pro-russia-rebel-lead...

And my mistake for making false assumptions; he is a local, sort of. Born in Simferopol.

Looks like the cockpit crew were killed out right.... the jet liner would go out of control and the stress from such action would break the aircraft up on the way down wihtout the airctaft exploding of catching fire.

So much for Russia's SU-25 shoot down theory.

I wonder why women hardly ever post on these threads any more. 

Only I don't, really. 

[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Protesters-at-Russian-em... at Russian embassy in Malaysia seek justice[/url]

[url=http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/22/Envoy-Well-do-all-we-ca... ambassador to Malaysia pledge[/url]

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/if-you-lived-russia-wh...

"Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on 17 July, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defence systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Well, it’s all true - at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you’d be seeing."

So which of theses various Pro-Russian theories do you believe? Slumberjack? NDPP? Prince K? ikosmos?

Slumberjack wrote:

You think it's better that we get behind the Biden Family investment portfolio in Eastern Ukraine with our support for the accompanying narratives to that end.

No, but by looking at the evidence that is out there, rather than by basing it on who you think the baddest bad guys are. Remember my example of Katyn? Even though the real Nazis were real Nazis, it didn't automatically mean they were the ones who slaughtered those Polish soldiers, even if Stalin tried to point the finger at them.

And with respect to this crash, we're dealing with several classes of things: evidence, a lot of it circumstantial, possible motives and opportunities, and more than a few outright conspiracy theories.

But at least now the black box is in the hands of those who know what to do with it.

Stockholm wrote:

Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"

Trained military can be quite as guilty of bone headed moves.  I'll see if I can dig up a story about a US soldier at a FOB in Afghanistan unplugging a critical air-defense radar in order to play X-Box.  Not singling out the US mind you, Canada isn't immune to those stories either.

The the amount of equipment Russia and the US give to various rebels I'm really surprised this hasn't happened a lot sooner, and a lot more frquent.   This could easily been rebels the US funded that shot down an Air Canada flight or something.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Personally I tend to take most American statements as false until proven to be true because while sometimes American officials tell the truth, enough of them perpetrate deliberate falsehoods on a regular and recuring basis that how can one believe a word any US agency has to say. 

The way simple psychology puts it....

Quote:

 Evidence for the distinction between declarative and procedural memory has come from research on patients with amnesia. Typically, amnesic patients have great difficulty in retaining episodic and semantic information following the onset of amnesia. Their memory for events and knowledge acquired before the onset of the condition tends to remain intact, but they can’t store new episodic or semantic memories. In other words, it appears that their ability to retain declarative information is impaired.

However, their procedural memory appears to be largely unaffected. They can recall skills they have already learned (e.g. riding a bike - or knowing how to regurgitate old information on cue) and acquire new skills (e.g. learning to drive - or knowing how to regurgitate new shit..er..information when required).

Italic font are my adds.

Maybe what we can all agree on is that the mainstream media is largely ignoring the killings of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, and they are portrayed as terrorists, instead of the righteous rebels in Syria.

Regardless of which parties being responsible for shooting down the planes, neither the U.S or Russia really have any trouble with killing civilians if it further their national and economic interests.

The only fact that can be agreed on is that this is a tragedy and Malaysian airlines fucked up again by rerouting itself and fly on eastern Ukraine in order to save fuel costs or they are just incompetents on many levels.

Another perspective, one Canadians might understand:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/opinion/The-Dutch-Mourn-Flight-17s-...

You two should really present yourselves at the front door of the appropriate agencies involved in these matters, as expert foreign affairs analysts and crash site investigators.  Think of all the money that could be saved when they realize you've already dug around to arrive at the bottom of everything.  At the very least you'll make quick friends of all the respective bean counters, who are always on the lookout for ways to do more with less.  What you've managed to arrive at here is as less as it gets.

That is why I love you SJ. You are still a soldier at heart.

Analysis: The shrapnel came from outside the plane.     

Quote:

Photographs of a piece of wreckage found by two reporters for The New York Times and analyzed by Reed Foster, a defense analyst with IHS Jane's, offer some clues about what could have caused Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 to crash. While it is impossible from the photographs to determine that a specific missile was used, Mr. Foster said, the damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, the type of missile that American officials have said was most likely behind the attack 

More proximity warhead style damage...

Ian Capstick has irritated me a lot of the years but his Troops on The Ground bullshit has given a much better understanding of the type of people running the NDP. Absolutely the wrong approach and yet another black mark. Its to the point I can't vote for the NDP because they are Trudeau lite.