Lessons for the left from Olivia Chow’s faltering campaign

Wed, 2014-10-01 17:54

oldgoat

Stockholm wrote"'.but if you want to go crying to the authorities because I hurt your feelings - go right ahead "Frankly Scarlett, i don't give a damn!"

Um... are you calling me scarlett? I mean it's ok and all, I've been called worse. Anyway, *puts on vertically striped sweater and skates* *falls over, removes skates*

As flagged posts go, this is kinda marginal. Yeah, Stock is kinda attacking terrytowel, but it's not hugely personal. He's also been by nature a fairly robust debator. People have their style. I don't see a lot of reason here for moderatorial intervention other than to suggesting to Stockholm that he try to remain mindful of combatting more the idea with less reference to the poster and ancient posts. At least for the rest of the week.

Someday I'll share with you how absolutely counter intuitive and downright clumsy and horrible the flagged post queue is to deal with.

Wed, 2014-10-01 17:55

#53

terrytowel

Stockholm wrote:

Here is a tough question for you to answer honestly - what if Olivia Chow and John Tory were the only two candidates on the ballot - who then?

Olivia Chow because of her support of the Scarborough LRT

If Rob Ford didn't cancel Transit City we'd have that line built by now.

Satisfied?

Wed, 2014-10-01 17:58

#54

terrytowel

Oldgoat u are not old but very wise.

Wed, 2014-10-01 17:59

#55

oldgoat

Hey man, coming up 63 in 4 weeks.

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:00

#56

terrytowel

oldgoat wrote:

Hey man, coming up 63 in 4 weeks.

63 is the new 40

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:15

#57

Webgear

terrytowel wrote:

More bad news for Olivia. The most recent Forum poll shows she is even losing ground to traditional NDP voters, and they are going to Doug Ford!

Those polled who identify as NDP voters, the majority say they will back Ford, at 36%. While only 31% of NDP voters say they are backing Chow. 25% of NDP voters say they support Tory

http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/TO%20Horserace%20News%20Release%20%28...

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:29

#58

Lord Palmerston

What's with John Laschinger - who served as the campaign director of John Tory's 2007 PC campaign - sending out all these e-mails where he proports to be a "fellow progressive"?

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:31

#59

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't know why you're so gung ho about John Tory,Terry.

To stop the Fords?

It would be like me voting for MacKay to stop Harper.

Tory/Ford the only difference is the name. (slightly)

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:50

#60

Debater

Lord Palmerston wrote:

What's with John Laschinger - who served as the campaign director of John Tory's 2007 PC campaign - sending out all these e-mails where he proports to be a "fellow progressive"?

John Laschinger used to be a major campaign manager & advertising guru for the Federal PC party. So I'm surprised he is now calling himself a major progressive, too.

Laschinger, like John Tory, was involved in the 1993 Federal PC campaign and didn't really think there was anything wrong with the attack ad making fun of Jéan Chrétien's facial paralysis.

Wed, 2014-10-01 18:55

#61

Debater

Bacchus wrote:

I think Tory is more centrist than right wing, he certainly wasnt right wing enough for the Provincial PC party

He was right-wing enough to get elected as their leader. The reason they threw him out is because he lost the election and couldn't even win his own seat.

It's true that John Tory is more of a 'red tory' type than say Stephen Harper, Rob Ford or Tim Hudak. Tory does come from the Bill Davis wing and the old PC Federal party as opposed to the Reform/Alliance like Harper.

But, he's still right-wing compared to a Liberal or NDP politician. And don't forget the video clip someone posted on the main Toronto Mayoral thread where he makes excuses for the PC attack ad in 1993 against Jéan Chrétien. That tells me something about his character.

Wed, 2014-10-01 21:11

#62

TiradeFaction

So lots of fighting (as usual) by TerryTowel and Stockholm and an earlier attempt at thread drift by Debater. And very little discussion of the article or even the mayoral race (outside an argument over the stated voting preferences of TerryTowel). I know it's not my place to say but this forum needs a bit of a cleanup.

Thu, 2014-10-02 04:57

#63

Debater

There was no thread drift by me. I was responding to comments that had already been made.

And my latest posts are about John Tory & his conservatism and previous campaign ethics, so those relate to the Toronto race.

Thu, 2014-10-02 09:20

#64

oldgoat

TiradeFaction wrote:

So lots of fighting (as usual) by TerryTowel and Stockholm and an earlier attempt at thread drift by Debater. And very little discussion of the article or even the mayoral race (outside an argument over the stated voting preferences of TerryTowel). I know it's not my place to say but this forum needs a bit of a cleanup.

Ok, lets see if I get this right. You want a forum where there's no fighting or thread drift. Well, I could ban everyone except me and all my sock puppets. Look, don't mean to be sarcastic, but this has been discussed in the past. Ain't gonna happen. We are who we are.

Thu, 2014-10-02 09:24

#65

Slumberjack

Even a forum set aside for pacifism would quickly reveal its discontents.

Thu, 2014-10-02 09:52

#66

terrytowel

Debater wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

I think Tory is more centrist than right wing, he certainly wasnt right wing enough for the Provincial PC party

He was right-wing enough to get elected as their leader. The reason they threw him out is because he lost the election and couldn't even win his own seat.

It's true that John Tory is more of a 'red tory' type than say Stephen Harper, Rob Ford or Tim Hudak. Tory does come from the Bill Davis wing and the old PC Federal party as opposed to the Reform/Alliance like Harper.

But, he's still right-wing compared to a Liberal or NDP politician. And don't forget the video clip someone posted on the main Toronto Mayoral thread where he makes excuses for the PC attack ad in 1993 against Jéan Chrétien. That tells me something about his character.

First off the party felt he was too moderate for the PC Party. There was a faction of the PC Party that underminded his election for the seat in Haliburton led by Randy Hillier (who had his own leadership aspirations). Tory was in line with Dalton McGinty Liberals, that is how moderate he was. & The party didn't like that. Tory kept having to pull the knives out his back, and the loss in Haliburton was the last straw.

All this was documented in a story in Toronto Life magazine "The Untold Story of John Tory Political Assisination"

Second the video was not his idea. He had no role in it. He didn't okay it, nor did he produce it or see it before it went on air. Only Allan Gregg and Tom Scott were involved. John Tory had no say in it whatsoever,

That was outlined in the book "Poisoned Challice" which documented the 1993 Tory campaign. You all should read the book to make up your minds.,

Thu, 2014-10-02 12:07

#67

Stockholm

terrytowel wrote:

First off the party felt he was too moderate for the PC Party.

"The party" chose him as their leader after Eves was defeated and it wasn't even close...they had other choices including Flaherty himself - but they chose Tory. The party was happy with him until he exhibited remarkably poor political judgment and lost an election in 2007 and that everyone thought was the Tories' to win...

Thu, 2014-10-02 13:55

#68

terrytowel

Stockholm wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

First off the party felt he was too moderate for the PC Party.

"The party" chose him as their leader after Eves was defeated and it wasn't even close...they had other choices including Flaherty himself - but they chose Tory. The party was happy with him until he exhibited remarkably poor political judgment and lost an election in 2007 and that everyone thought was the Tories' to win...

Stock you are right

He and the PC were leading in the polls. But McGinty was able to use the faith based school issue as a wedge issue, as tensions over 9/11 were still very high.

After the loss the knives were out, and the PC party felt he wasn't right-wing enough and too moderate. Like a righter version of McGinty, who was at the right of the Liberal Party. The PC wanted HARD right, tea party style as they felt moderate was not the way to go.

Thu, 2014-10-02 16:54

#69

terrytowel

ELECTRIC moment from the mayoral debate yesterday. Olivia takes on older gentleman who questions her for being on the public purse and living in subsidized housing (which she had denied).

Olivia got a standing ovation!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCOdNwVwS74

Thu, 2014-10-02 18:39

#70

TiradeFaction

oldgoat wrote:

TiradeFaction wrote:

So lots of fighting (as usual) by TerryTowel and Stockholm and an earlier attempt at thread drift by Debater. And very little discussion of the article or even the mayoral race (outside an argument over the stated voting preferences of TerryTowel). I know it's not my place to say but this forum needs a bit of a cleanup.

Ok, lets see if I get this right. You want a forum where there's no fighting or thread drift. Well, I could ban everyone except me and all my sock puppets. Look, don't mean to be sarcastic, but this has been discussed in the past. Ain't gonna happen. We are who we are.

Nah, thread drift and fighting are inevitable. It's a matter of degree. And this board seems to have a lot more of it than an otherwise functioning board should have. And it's not like this hasn't been reigned in on other threads, recently a fight between TerryTowel and someone else was squashed. But it's not my board, and if it ain't gonna happen, it ain't gonna happen. Was just commenting as a mostly drifter to these parts :P

Thu, 2014-10-02 21:27

#71

TiradeFaction

-

Fri, 2014-10-03 20:59

#72

Debater

terrytowel wrote:

Second the video was not his idea. He had no role in it. He didn't okay it, nor did he produce it or see it before it went on air. Only Allan Gregg and Tom Scott were involved. John Tory had no say in it whatsoever

Yes, I know that. I didn't say John Tory made the Jean Chretien video or that he saw it before it went on air.

I said that 2 issues about the video reflect on his character & judgement:

1. Tory was a Campaign Co-Chair who was in a key position and so it raises questions as to why he let a major attack video on Jean Chretien go out without seeing it first.

2. In the video clip on the other thread, Tory was asked about the video after it came out and he defended it and said there was no problem with it.

Anyway, there's only so much we can say about the 1993 campaign all these years later, but my point is that I've never felt completely at ease towards John Tory. There's something about him that has always struck me as not genuine or entirely trustworthy.

Sat, 2014-10-04 06:53

#73

terrytowel

Debater wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Second the video was not his idea. He had no role in it. He didn't okay it, nor did he produce it or see it before it went on air. Only Allan Gregg and Tom Scott were involved. John Tory had no say in it whatsoever

Yes, I know that. I didn't say John Tory made the Jean Chretien video or that he saw it before it went on air.

I said that 2 issues about the video reflect on his character & judgement:

1. Tory was a Campaign Co-Chair who was in a key position and so it raises questions as to why he let a major attack video on Jean Chretien go out without seeing it first.

2. In the video clip on the other thread, Tory was asked about the video after it came out and he defended it and said there was no problem with it.

Anyway, there's only so much we can say about the 1993 campaign all these years later, but my point is that I've never felt completely at ease towards John Tory. There's something about him that has always struck me as not genuine or entirely trustworthy.

1. He did not 'let' it go out without seeing it. He didn't even know about it until it aired. Allan Gregg did it behind his back. Even Kim Campbell was unaware of the ad until after it aired.

2. By defending it he was trying to salvage a losing campaign. He was hired as the spin doctor, and that was his job. To try to spin the fallout.

Not saying what he did was right (on point #2) but from his perspective he was hired to do damage control, and that is what he was trying to do.

The ad was all Allan Gregg & Tom Scott (PC ad man) yet it is John Tory taking the heat because he was the campaign spin doctor.

Sun, 2014-10-05 07:48

#74

Debater

Well, as Campaign Co-Chair, if your underlings are making ads secretly without your knowledge and not getting your approval before launching them, I think it raises questions about that person's leadership abilities.

Anyway, the 1993 PC campaign was obviously a mess and it's certainly not all John Tory's fault. (Brian Mulroney & Kim Campbell are the main ones who sunk it). I'm just saying that Tory's obliviousness to the situation raises questions about his competence.

Sun, 2014-10-05 10:48

#75

terrytowel

Debater wrote:

Well, as Campaign Co-Chair, if your underlings are making ads secretly without your knowledge and not getting your approval before launching them, I think it raises questions about that person's leadership abilities.

Tory had the title, but not the authority. Because Allan Gregg lead the Tories to back to back majorities, he was the one in charge. What he said (Allan Gregg) went. It was solely Allan Gregg who developed the ad, produced it and arranged it to be aired. He was the only one who saw it,

The way the campaign was set-up, Allan Gregg was higher on the food chain and Tory reported to him. Not the other way around. Tory did what Allan Gregg told him to do.

So while John Tory gets all the blame for the ad, it was Allan Gregg who was the one solely responsible.

Lessons for the left from Olivia Chow’s faltering campaign

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