Join the discussion about Charlie Hebdo - closed

Ikosmos, here is more background on the two brothers

"Paris Terrorist was Radicalized by Bush’s Iraq War, Abu Ghraib Torture" by Juan Cole

They would tell their families that they were going to study in Syria.  And they would spend some time in hard line Salafi schools.  But then they would slip across the border into Iraq.

Sharif was about to go to Iraq in 2005, himself, to fight Bush’s troops there (which he saw as aggressive foreign occupiers), but he and a friend were arrested and interrogated by the French police. 

In 2008 he and three others were tried as members of the 19th Arondissement Cell, on charges of funneling a dozen young French Muslims into Iraq from 2003 to 2005 (one ended up in Falluja).  They typically joined al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, then headed by the Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.  There had been no al-Qaeda in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, whose secret police issued an APB for Zarqawi in summer, 2002.  Bush’s invasion and occupation led to the founding of ‘al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/terrorist-radicalized-torture.html

Charlie Hebdo also made a habit of mocking other victims of terrorist attacks.

Samples to follow.

Here is another.

In 1987 Israel assassinated caricature artists Naji al-Ali. Today it pretends outrage at the murder in Paris & claims it has freedom

Naji al-Ali is one of the most influential commentators on Palestine.Naji al-Ali is still the most popular artist in the Arab world, loved for his defense of the ordinary people, and for his criticism of repression and despotism. Paradoxically, strict censorship and widespread illiteracy in the Arab world helped him to achieve his remarkable success.

Naji al-Ali: The timeless conscience of Palestine

http://electronicintifada.net/content/naji-al-ali-timeless-conscience-palestine/5166

ikosmos wrote:

Pepe Escobar wrote:

Cui bono, then, with killing Charlie? Only those whose agenda is to demonize Islam. Not even a bunch of brainwashed fanatics would pull off the Charlie carnage to show people who accuse them of being barbarians that they are, in fact, barbarians. French intel at least has concluded that this is no underwear bomber stunt. This is a pro job. That happens to take place just a few days after France recognizes Palestinian statehood. And just a few days after General Hollande demanded the lifting of sanctions against the Russian "threat".

False flag? Maybe.

Who profits from killing Charlie?

Quote:

this was a pro job. And staying with option one, this points right at - what else - blowback. Yes, they could be Daesh/ISIS/ISIL mercenaries trained by NATO (crucially, France included) in Turkey and/or Jordan. But it might get even false-flag nastier. They could also be former or current French special forces.

Escobar nails it.

Ikosmos, 

Charlie Hebdo mocked victims of dictatorship massacres in Egypt with a cover proclaiming "The Quran is shit... doesnt even stop bullets"  http://www.afrik.com/crise-en-egypte-le-coran-c-est-de-la-merde-selon-charlie-hebdo …

"ISIS Leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi criticised for wearing Disney wristwatch during fiery sermon"

http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wordpress/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-ridiculed-wearing-disney-wristwatch/

Contrary to popular believe, Muslims and Arabs are capable of mocking extremists and leaders of their countries

White European & western men do not have a monopoly on satire

Charlie depicting kidnapped school girls in Nigeria by Boko Haram

Translates to "The Sexual Slaves of Boko Haram are Angry" "Where are our benefits cheques?

Black Minister of Justice Christiane Taubira as monkey

After all they are only jokes, right?

Timebandit wrote:

Why was the thread title changed? If that was what I'd meant, I'd have said that. Frankly, I'd be delighted if a few participants here hadn't actually joined the discussion. Specifically you, Webgear, with your victim-blaming.

Why so sensitive? It is because some of your colleagues were killed? These forums have been filled with victim blaming for years, why should there be a change in policy now?

These journalists knew what they were doing and were attempting to provoke a response for years from the Muslims they knew they were offending. 

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

NS wrote:

Charlie depicting kidnapped school girls in Nigeria by Boko Haram

Translates to "The Sexual Slaves of Boko Haram are Angry" "Where are our benefits cheques?

 

 

Black Minister of Justice Christiane Taubira as monkey

After all they are only jokes, right?

 

 

 

What's your point?

NDPP wrote:

Everybody cool with that? (I'm not)

I post here with the full knowledge and acceptance that the mods call the shots. 

But here's me trying to parse out exactly what just happened:

Mosques, a family in their car, a kebab shop, all attacked in france

Smells like freedom already

Kebab shop bombed, mosques attacked in France after Charlie Hebdo killings

Quote:

I am going to sound like a broken record, but no one has yet to tell me when did it become true that to defend someone's free speech rights, one has to  embrace their ideas?

That's never been true.  As 6079_Smith_W has been trying (in this and even in an earlier thread) to suggest is that half the time you won't, the other half almost nobody will.  Nobody needs to respect (admire, enjoy, laugh at...) the content in order to respect the right.

NS wrote:

I am going to sound like a broken record, but no one has yet to tell me when did it become true that to defend someone's free speech rights, one has to  embrace their ideas?

Did anyone say that? I sure didn't. Do I need to go back and point out where I said exactly the opposite?

Since you seem so focused on pointing out offensive speech, maybe we can talk about the references in this thread to offending Muslims as if they are one and the same with the extremists who committed this murder.

Do you think that reflects the greater Muslim community? Not according to what many of them are actually saying:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/muslims-respond-charlie-hebdo_n...

My disagreeing with some of the things these cartoonists have published doesn't mean I am going to buy into this ridiculous and manipulative hatchet job.I support what they do.

And it isn't surprising that some racist is going to respond with an attack. But can crow a little less loudly about what you seem to think is confirmation that people will respond in the worst way possible?  I for one hope you and the other doomsayers here wind up being disappointed; personally I am more interested in the hundreds of thousands who have protested to try and stop this from inflaming the situation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norwa...

Catchfire wrote:

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

What policy did he break?

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

What policy did he break?

Yeah, really, please tell us what policy he broke so we aviod doing so ourselves.  

You're welcome!

Translated as "The French as dumb as the Blacks"

An Orientalist 'toon of Muslim man with exaggerated nose

 "The War in Zaire: These Blacks are shit"

"Surrogacy agreement: Two parents and A slave"

Whose freedom of speech?

White supremacy masked as "satire"

I too am at a loss as to why Webgear was suspended.

As for this event, it's tragic that so many lives were lost. But I am not joining the bandwagon of this being an assault on our freedom of expression or free and open media. Hell, I haven't seen mainstream media being free and open for decades - only beholden to their corporate bosses and advertisers.

I feel like this event is only going to make the right wing, anti-immigrant movement in France and perhaps elsewhere even stronger.

... it seems, alas, unlike our betters here, we both lack the necessary aesthetic sophistication and cultural refinement necessary to fully appreciate and enjoy these  'mouthy and creative', 'witty and irreverent' examples of the high and historic artistic traditions of French satire...

I agree with you. Sure looks like it to me. No mask either.

Charlie Hebdo and Tsarnaev's Trial: Cui Bono?  -  by Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/08/charlie-hebdo-tsarnaevs-trial...

There are two ways to look at the alleged terrorist attack on the French satirical magaine Charlie Hebdo.

One is that in the English speaking world, or much of it, the satire would have been regarded as 'hate speech' and the satirists arrested. But in France Muslims are excluded from the privileged category, took offence at the satire and retaliated.

Another way of seeing the attack is an attack designed to shore up France's vassal status to Washington. The suspects can be both guilty and patsies..."

Is there some kind of explanation posted why Webgear was I presume suspended

I may often not agree with Webgear, but I find it hard to believe that he would post something so offensive that it justifies suspending him.

Who suspended him?

We would appreciate a clarification about what is going on here please.

laine lowe wrote:

I too am at a loss as to why Webgear was suspended.

As for this event, it's tragic that so many lives were lost. But I am not joining the bandwagon of this being an assault on our freedom of expression or free and open media. Hell, I haven't seen mainstream media being free and open for decades - only beholden to their corporate bosses and advertisers.

I feel like this event is only going to make the right wing, anti-immigrant movement in France and perhaps elsewhere even stronger.

Catchfire wrote:

Hey TB, looks like the thread title was changed by none other than rabble.ca's editor-in-chief, Meagan Perry, who has made this thread the photo feature on the front page today.

Interesting.

I don't know what to make of the headline: [url=http://rabble.ca/multimedia/2015/01/solidarity-journalists-killed-france]"In solidarity with the journalists killed in France."[/url]

NDPP wrote:

(sorry for drift I'll waste no more time on it as it's completely useless to pursue unless there's unity and there isn't. Enough.)

I don't know that there needs to be unity. It didn't take all that many people to get AC's suspension reconsidered.

[url=http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/what-policy-was-broken#new]RP's thread[/url] might as well be the next "petition thread".

Hey everyone! Apologies for the lack of explanation above. Based on the number of complaints, I thought it was self explanatory, but perhaps I was wrong. I'm on my phone so I'll have to be brief, but essentially WG's initial post alleges that the CH journalists deserved what they got. It was so appalling I thought it might be a joke. Not only did WG clarify that it was NOT a joke, he turned his post into what read to me as a rather nasty attack on Timebandit. Now some people i tend to think are pretty sharp appear to think I got it wrong, so I'm willing to hear them out--preferably by PM please! Thanks.

It's certainly not an accurate description of all positions. While I certainly don't support the killings, after viewing their work I don't think I want to be regarded as 'in solidarity' with them. I find them highly racist and objectionable. Others obviously have their own views. The headline though is the western propaganda standard being pumped out by their big media Wurlitzer. I didn't start the thread but if I did I would expect a title change to involve some negotiation and consent.

Why does terrorism work? Because we let it.

By Michael Harris 

As Europe staggers toward scapegoating, paranoia and bigotry in the wake of the unspeakable mass murder of journalists in Paris, there's one thing that every Canadian can take to the bank: When Parliament returns, Stephen Harper will be bringing forward new anti-terror legislation. Like Stephen Rigby before them, the new national security tandem of Dick Fadden and David McGovern will be one of the most potent forces in the PM's re-election plans. Fear is Harper's most powerful vote magnet; security…

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/01/08/why-does-terrorism-work-because-we-le...