Well that depends, SJ, on whether or not in promoting that cause she had called people dogshit, posted mocking pictures of African people, bullied people based on their Jewish heritage, made fun of disabilities, among other actions that really reflect badly on her reputation.
Because as much as I disagree with the TSO decision I think this concerns HOW she expressed herself, not her political values. And not even her status as an active member of the campaign.
I think that's a straw man. I'm not saying losing the gig is better or worse than anything else. I'm just saying that, in and of itself, it qualifies neither as censorship nor as a violaton of anyone's rights. As I have illustrated elsewhere on this thread(eg. the case of Flanagan), it is hardly unheard of for public figures to lose jobs because they express controversial views. NEXT...Yeah that's sort of the Kremlin's line when unpopular figures start glowing in the dark. It doesn't mean it's officially happening or that it's anyone's fault in the government.
I haven't expressed any opinions on who poisoned the Russians in London, nor do I have any informed opinions on that. So, if you're trying to catch me in a "Gotcha!!", well, it's not gonna work. (I think I recall hearing a theory floated that it was actually anti-Putin people who had done it, for whatever that is worth). NEXT...
And if you think that this was all orchestrated by the government, well, let's see the evidence, and maybe try to make it account for why their reach apparently doesn't extend to Calgary.
And anyway, if you're looking for an example of a case where the government clearly did interfere, you can go back to Tom Flanagan. Both Thomas Lukaszuk, the Alberta Deputy Premier, and James Moore, the federal Heritage Minister, demanded that the U Of C sack him(which the U O C didn't do, but tried to give the impression that they were). I don't recall much outrage about that.
Here's a guy from my neck of the woods who lost his job for saying the wrong thing...http://tinyurl.com/lws8c72
Because as much as I disagree with the TSO decision I think this concerns HOW she expressed herself, not her political values. And not even her status as an active member of the campaign.
Generally I have found that in listening to various Eastern European and Russian people being interviewed that they have a different way of expressing themselves than western people. I recall the Bill Maher/Pussy Riot interview specifically. What they had to say was said using dark humour to convey serious circumstances. Maher wasn't quite sure if he should laugh or just stare straight ahead with a stupid look on his face. And he's in the funny business apparently. I found this is not unusual. It was also evident in interviews with representatives of the DNR/LPR. All that to say, I don't think your bias against the pianist is supported very well by being fixated on her manner of expression.
^ Not quite sure what I think about that. I suppose his university could have been more open-minded. On the other hand, the guy was untenured, with no a priori right to sign another contract. And he had expressed views which, while not illegal, the university would almost certainly find embarrassing. (He disputed Korea's claim against Japan to ownership of the Liancourt Rocks.)
And if you think that this was all orchestrated by the government, well, let's see the evidence, and maybe try to make it account for why their reach apparently doesn't extend to Calgary.
We don't need no stinkin evidence when it's Putin do we? It's just said he's responsible for this or that, and that's that.
VOTD's misplaced analogies are just that.
Cancelling Lisitsa's appearance is analogous to cancelling an actor from a sitcom - or an assembly line worker in an auto plant - or a busdriver - because they publicly support - or oppose - Stephen Harper. In neither case is the performer hired because of the acceptability or credibility or respectability of their political opinions. And in both cases, it constitutes censorship, of the most blatant kind.
At least the Church of the Holy Whatever had the decency to lie about fearing violence. The asshole Melanson of the TSO told the truth (or part of it) - that some unnamed "Ukrainian media outlets" found Lisitsa's views to be "deeply offensive".
I expect Melanson to lose his job over his misguided devotion to the truth (or part of it). I will then join, yet again, the campaign against the TSO over its censorship.
^ For what it's worth, as someone who is supposedly taking an anti-Putin position here, I would have NO PROBLEM with a venue legally cancelling a Pussy Riot gig, if the band made an unexpectedly controversial action AFTER booking the gig. I mean, I don't think they should have gone to jail for insulting Orthodoxy, but I would understand it if a strait-laced nightclub didn't want to be associated with some of their more outlandish antics. (Though since anyone who hosts Pussy Riot likely knows what they're all about, my sceanario is probably academic.)
The TSO said its ban is in response to claims “by Ukrainian media outlets” that Lisitsa’s views in opposition to the war in eastern Ukraine as expressed on Twitter and Facebook are “deeply offensive.” The Symphony told her that it would pay her for the two cancelled performances but only if she stayed silent on the matter. She has not.
No, no threats at all. Nope. Nothing to see here. And CD, who are they anyway?
Valentina's appeal is also printed on the page.
And if you think that this was all orchestrated by the government, well, let's see the evidence, and maybe try to make it account for why their reach apparently doesn't extend to Calgary.We don't need no stinkin evidence when it's Putin do we? It's just said he's responsible for this or that, and that's that.
I don't know who your "we" is here. As I said, I don't take supposed evidence against Putin at face value, and I don't think I've done so on these forums. So, maybe go look for another target for your Gotchas.
Cancelling Lisitsa's appearance is analogous to cancelling an actor from a sitcom - or an assembly line worker in an auto plant - or a busdriver - because they publicly support - or oppose - Stephen Harper.
Did they say they cancelled because of her political views? I don't think so. From what I read it had to do with the offensive way in which she expressed those views. She had a gig cancelled. While I see the political angle as an unfortunate extenuating circumstance, this is not the first time that has happened to an artist for bad behaviour, nor is it likely to be the last.
And she still seems to be playing and talking, even in Canada.
VOTD's misplaced analogies are just that.
Cancelling Lisitsa's appearance is analogous to cancelling an actor from a sitcom - or an assembly line worker in an auto plant - or a busdriver - because they publicly support - or oppose - Stephen Harper. In neither case is the performer hired because of the acceptability or credibility or respectability of their political opinions. And in both cases, it constitutes censorship, of the most blatant kind.
So, what about my colleague(well, I didn't actually know the guy) who failed to get his university contract renewed because he continually went on-line and made comments about Korea/Japan that the university found outrageous and embarrassing? Do you think he was a victim of censorship? Personally, I lean to saying he wasn't, because teaching ESL is the kind of job where your "persona" follows you into the classroom, and he's still free to express his views while doing another job.
Did they say they cancelled because of her political views? I don't think so. From what I read it had to do with the offensive way in which she expressed those views.
They did what you're doing. Cherry pick for effect, never mind the totality of what was said, superimpose an acceptable concept of western speech patterns that the government might approve of over that of a non-western speaker, and get a little high dungeon worked up over it.
Chopin Etudes by Valentina Lisitsa.
Yeah. Really offensive. Gosh.
While I see the political angle as an unfortunate extenuating circumstance, this is not the first time that has happened to an artist for bad behaviour, nor is it likely to be the last.
What do you mean? That nobody should bother with any of this because it goes on all the time? It's so commonplace as to be unremarkable?
delete
The TSO said its ban is in response to claims “by Ukrainian media outlets” that Lisitsa’s views in opposition to the war in eastern Ukraine as expressed on Twitter and Facebook are “deeply offensive.” The Symphony told her that it would pay her for the two cancelled performances but only if she stayed silent on the matter. She has not.No, no threats at all. Nope. Nothing to see here. And CD, who are they anyway?
Valentina's appeal is also printed on the page.
By "silent on the matter", did they mean silent on the Ukraine/Russia issue, or silent on her dispute with the TSO? Because, if it's the latter, that's not really an example of political censorship.
While I see the political angle as an unfortunate extenuating circumstance, this is not the first time that has happened to an artist for bad behaviour, nor is it likely to be the last.What do you mean? That nobody should bother with any of this because it goes on all the time? It's so commonplace as to be unremarkable?
I think the point might be that if you didn't complain most other times that a public-figure lost a gig because of someting they did off-stage, why are you so concerned about this particular case?
lol. That's a typical management tactic in bargaining. If the workers didn't complain about a practice in the past, they are doomed to have to put up with it forever into the future.
Nicely done, VOTD.
An appalling act of censorship; there's no easy way to defend the TSO's foolishness.
Ukrainian-born pianist Valentina Lisitsa, whose appearance with the TSO was cancelled, had planned to play a free concert Wednesday at the Church of the Holy Trinity. But the church called it off, fearing violence.I don't know whether that's pathetic, or infuriating, or hilarious.
Would have been nice if the Church had called off the Crusades, "fearing violence".
Feeling sad for Torontonians today. They deserve better.
I'm not sure on the source cited there. I was surprised, since Holy Trinity is a wonderful community, the most in favour of equal marriage in Toronto's Anglican community, and a longstanding home to numerous peace activist movements over the years. So I've been looking around. All I see here as source is the pianists's own twitter feed, cited [url=http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2015/04/07/update-tso-pulls-concerto-in-wa.... But maybe there are other sources?
They did what you're doing. Cherry pick for effect, never mind the totality of what was said, superimpose an acceptable concept of western speech patterns that the government might approve of over that of a non-western speaker, and get a little high dungeon worked up over it.
Dudgeon.
No. They said it was because of the offensive nature of what she said. And politics aside, that is a perfectly valid thing to have concerns about, especially when it extends into racism and making fun of disabilities.
Are you saying that, for instance, no one should call PETA on the sexist, shocking or discriminatory nature of their campaigns because it is for a good cause, and that anyone who might not want to accept their advertising is doing so for political reasons?
@ swallow
Are you in Toronto? Might be worth a phone call.
I think the point might be that if you didn't complain most other times that a public-figure lost a gig because of someting they did off-stage, why are you so concerned about this particular case?
Because today I'm pursuing hypocrisy. Not sure what I'm doing tomorrow.
lol. That's a typical management tactic in bargaining. If the workers didn't complain about a practice in the past, they are doomed to have to put up with it forever into the future.
Nicely done, VOTD.
Uh, no. It's more like when, someone who has never complained about loud church-bells in his life, even though he lives in a neighbourhood with five loud churches which ring their bells daily, suddenly decides that he's gonna make an issue of the Muslim call to prayer emanating from a mosque. I'm not saying the guy has no right to complain about that, I'm just pointing out the double-standard, and possibly speculating on the reasons for it.
Are you saying that, for instance, no one should call PETA on the sexist, shocking or discriminatory nature of their campaigns because it is for a good cause, and that anyone who might not want to accept their advertising is doing so for political reasons?
PETA is a North American outfit isn't it? As such they should be well versed in the common language as to what constitutes acceptable speech and what isn't acceptable. They have fewer excuses for going rogue with incorrect phraseology. The analogy doesn't hold up.
Here's someone else who was a victim of censorship: "Michelle Shocked has gone silent after a homophobic rant at a San Francisco concert Sunday night that has left her without a U.S. tour. Ten out of eleven of her upcoming concert dates have been canceled by the venues themselves, Billboard has confirmed." NEXT...
I guess this is an example of tyranny, then? I mean, what do her comments in San Francisco have to do with the other venues? And what about all the people who wanted to hear her sing, but are now having their "civil-rights" denied because of arbitrary decisions being made by the venues?
What are you saying, Slumberjack, that someone who has lived in the U.S. for 20 years is an ignorant immigrant who just needs to be educated on how to express herself better? That's as bad as Unionist's apologist comment about her being immature, despite her 40 years.
Kind of ironic that it is those who claim to be her defenders who undermine her intelligence and understanding of the things she said.
I don't buy it; I think you simply don't have any other way to deal with the fact that she said those things, quite clearly.
An appalling act of censorship; there's no easy way to defend the TSO's foolishness.
Ukrainian-born pianist Valentina Lisitsa, whose appearance with the TSO was cancelled, had planned to play a free concert Wednesday at the Church of the Holy Trinity. But the church called it off, fearing violence.I don't know whether that's pathetic, or infuriating, or hilarious.
Would have been nice if the Church had called off the Crusades, "fearing violence".
Feeling sad for Torontonians today. They deserve better.
I'm not sure on the source cited there. I was surprised, since Holy Trinity is a wonderful community, the most in favour of equal marriage in Toronto's Anglican community, and a longstanding home to numerous peace activist movements over the years. So I've been looking around. All I see here as source is the pianists's own twitter feed, cited [url=http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2015/04/07/update-tso-pulls-concerto-in-wa.... But maybe there are other sources?
Sorry, I forgot to link to my source - it was [url=http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/music/2015/04/07/banned-pianist-to-... article in the Toronto Star[/url]. But looking at it carefully, there are the words "she says" for the church's reasons for not going forward - so unless the church responds or comments, we'll only have her word to go on. The reason I didn't notice this at first was I was quoting from the photo caption. Thanks for directing me back there for clarification, swallow.
VOTD's misplaced analogies are just that.
We'll soon need a search party to bring them in.
I don't buy it; I think you simply don't have any other way to deal with the fact that she said those things, quite clearly.
I could say, with a certain sense of pride, that I'm a member in good standing of the down east culture of defeat that Harper talked about, and the statement could bear no ill intent toward my defeatists neighbors. Similarly, if Harper instead had referred to down easterners as sub-humans, and speaking as a sub-human, according to Harper, I voiced an opinion about him in response, that would not necessarily constitute a slur against down easterners. To follow the idiocy being advanced here, black people who refer to themselves using the N word should think better of it, says you. Never mind the context there either. It is also quite possible to criss-cross forms of speech and ways of expression between different linguistic traditions. I believe the musician in question is getting the drubbing she's getting here because what she said about her country does not jive very well with the narratives you prefer. What does she know seems to be your attitude. She's a Ukrainian woman speaking out about Ukrainian affairs if you must know.
SJ, She isn't black. As far as I know she isn't Jewish, or disabled, or uneducated, and I hardly think this comes down to cultural context, linguistic traditions or any other of that mealymouthed nonsense.
Not to put the focus on her, because I think the TSO fucked up, but they actually had a good reason to characterize her comments as offensive, and I don't think you can just pass it off with this relativist fancy footwork.
VOTD's misplaced analogies are just that.We'll soon need a search party to bring them in.
I'm not really seeing how my analogies are misplaced. They all involve people who had some previously agreed-to job or venue denied to them, as a result of controversial opinions they expressed(be they about gay rights, child-porn, or Korea-Japan territoral disputes). My point is that no one here seems to care when that happens, until, coincidentally enough I'm sure, the opinions expressed happen to be ones with which they are in strong agreement. NEXT...
And, for the record, as long as no laws are broken, I don't care whether any public-figure(or even just someone whose "persona" is part of his job) loses a gig or fails to get a contract renewed for expressing controversial views. And speaking as someone who supports Korea's claim to Dokdo, I'd be equally lackidaisical if it were a teacher in Japan losing a contract for saying the rocks are Korean.
That's a hilarious parsing of "indentities" there Smith, for someone who claims that Lisita making comparisons between Nazis and the regime in Ukraine (and the movement that spawned it) "racist" against Ukrainians. That is quite a trick to perform while posturing against "cultural relativism", it appears that while it is possible to be "racist" against Ukrainians, it is impossible to consider a parallel between use of the N-word between African-Americans and Lisita's usage of the term "subhuman", in reference to Russian-Ukrainians.
I have a better idea. A persons private life, including their opinions and non-work related activities should have no bearing on a persons employment unless it is likely to impact the performance of their paid duties.
Ignorant postings on the internet, and unpopular opinions, are not in any way shape or form going to undermine Lisitsa's ability to play the piano.
And, for the record, as long as no laws are broken, I don't care whether any public-figure(or even just someone whose "persona" is part of his job) loses a gig or fails to get a contract renewed for expressing controversial views. And speaking as someone who supports Korea's claim to Dokdo, I'd be equally lackidaisical if it were a teacher in Japan losing a contract for saying the rocks are Korean.
Yes of course, complete socialized subjugation and blackballing of anyone for anything, even on their own time, is perfectly fine, just as long as the employer finds their activities or views "offensive" or even merely "controversial" -- supporting unions, political movements, smoking pot and drinking beer.
You should write a book and call it "the Complete Stooge."
I bet you have the "Crime Stoppers" phone number tatooted on the back of your hand.
That's a hilarious parsing of "indentities" there Smith, for someone who claims that Lisita making comparisons between Nazis and the regime in Ukraine (and the movement that spawned it) "racist" against Ukrainians. That is quite a trick to perform while posturing against "cultural relativism", it appears that while it is possible to be "racist" against Ukrainians, it is impossible to consider a parallel between use of the N-word between African-Americans and Lisita's usage of the term "subhuman", in reference to Russian-Ukrainians.
I'm talking about her post holding up traditional african clothing as an object of ridicule against both african and Ukrainian people. It has been mentioned a few times, and I had thought you would be familiar with it.
And no need to use the scare quotes. Discrimination and negative comments against Ukrainians is racism, just as it is against Hispanic, Francophone, or any other culture.
I am familiar with the lies spread by the disinformation campaign, but they are a real culture and a real nation.
"The TSO banning is a consequence of intense lobbying by powerful and wealthy rightwing activists in the Ukrainian community in Canada and their international network.They are intensely supportive of Kyiv's war.
Their lobbying efforts in Ottawa and in Canada's mainstream press have been very successful in convincing parliamentarians, newspaper and CBC editors that there is one and only one narrative worthy of consideration concerning the war Kyiv is waging in eastern Ukraine: 'Blame Russia'.
Toronto Symphony Cancels Performance by Ukrainian-Born Pianist for Anti-War Views
http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/roger-annis/2015/04/toronto-symphony-can...
"Excuse me Canada - I think you dropped something, is this your spine?" - one reader's response to this controversy. One could as easily substitute 'heart' 'brain' or perhaps cohones...
The Durability of Ukrainian Fascism
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/06/the-durability-of-ukrainian-fascism/
"And Ukrainian fascism is more durable than most..." [but Canada is catching up fast]
That's a hilarious parsing of "indentities" there Smith, for someone who claims that Lisita making comparisons between Nazis and the regime in Ukraine (and the movement that spawned it) "racist" against Ukrainians. That is quite a trick to perform while posturing against "cultural relativism", it appears that while it is possible to be "racist" against Ukrainians, it is impossible to consider a parallel between use of the N-word between African-Americans and Lisita's usage of the term "subhuman", in reference to Russian-Ukrainians.
clap clap. Smith's incoherent remarks also begs the question, which Valentina raised in her RT interview, that it makes no sense to to claim a Ukrainian is "racist" against Ukrainians. VAlentina's satirical use of the putsch regime's "sub human" terminology is quite appropriate way to mock the forced monoculture that the brutal regime wants to impose on the whole society.
In the same way that the internet has contributed to many potential political candidates being turfed by various political parties for things they either said ten years ago or yesterday, it's probably going to contribute to more artists, entertainers or speakers having their venue cancelled because some network/gallery/venue just doesn't want to be the focus of protests, boycotts or other grief.
At the same time, when activists succeed in having some controversial speaker's gig cancelled, that's not seen as a step closer to fascism, nor the death of democracy, nor even unethical or unjust. It's a victory!
Is there some fundamental difference between the rights of a speaker, contracted to speak at an engagement, and the rights of a performer, contracted to perform at an engagement? Is it "cowardly" for the TSO to back away under pressure from a small but vocal group, but "the right thing to do" if some other organization backs away under pressure from a small but vocal group?
it makes no sense to to claim a Ukrainian is "racist" against Ukrainians.
"Racist" may not be the right word -- I think it gets used in place of "bigoted" (or just "offensive") too much. But I'm guessing that ethnic Russians in Ukraine are probably seen as something like white farmers in Zimbabwe were. Were they officially Zimbabwean? Sure, I guess. Were they basically settlers, or colonists? Pretty much.
My wife is Estonian, and one of the first things I learned about dealing with my new in-laws was "don't even mention Russia". Having been colonized is still a sore spot with them.
On close examination, there is nothing particularly offensive about Lisetta's statements, or anything particularly controversial about it when put in the context of the Ukrainian PMs call for ethnic cleanisng of "inhumans".
Indeed. Except most, especially Canadian 'progressives', apparently no longer do any "close examination'. Instead they prefer to support Right Sector, like Peggy Nash NDP or the TSO: For anyone who cares, here's more on why Valentina's tweeting
Killings in the Name of the Ukrainian Land of Donbas
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/07/killings-in-the-name-of-ukrainian...
Whatever you may think, Lisista, quite evidently disagrees and self-identifies as being part of a distinct ethnic group inside of Ukrainians society.
Like Afrikaners?
Whatever you may think, Lisista, quite evidently disagrees and self-identifies as being part of a distinct ethnic group inside of Ukrainians society.
Disagrees with me? How? I didn't say she didn't.
Maybe you should tell that to ikosmos, who claims it makes no sense for claim Ukrainians can be racist against Ukrainians (even though he goes on more than anyone about false allegations of ethnic cleansing).
And yeah I read what SJ said. No, it's not relevant to the examples I was talking about, as I said once already.
And it can't be racist because you think someone else said something worse? How does that make sense?
and @ Magoo
I hear what you are saying, but I think unless one wants to reduce it to genetic testing (visible difference isn't always accurate either) discrimination based on ethnicity and culture does fall within the definition of racism, especially in cases, like that directed against Ukrainian culture, where there is an attempt to deny that they exist at all.
After all, genocide includes not just an attempt to eradicate people based on ethnicity, but also religion. So one can't simply look at the root of the word
That's a hilarious parsing of "indentities" there Smith, for someone who claims that Lisita making comparisons between Nazis and the regime in Ukraine (and the movement that spawned it) "racist" against Ukrainians. That is quite a trick to perform while posturing against "cultural relativism", it appears that while it is possible to be "racist" against Ukrainians, it is impossible to consider a parallel between use of the N-word between African-Americans and Lisita's usage of the term "subhuman", in reference to Russian-Ukrainians.
I'm talking about her post holding up traditional african clothing as an object of ridicule against both african and Ukrainian people. It has been mentioned a few times, and I had thought you would be familiar with it.
And no need to use the scare quotes. Discrimination and negative comments against Ukrainians is racism, just as it is against Hispanic, Francophone, or any other culture.
I am familiar with the lies spread by the disinformation campaign, but they are a real culture and a real nation.
I am familiar with it. I thought it showed a pretty insensitive type of European entitlement attitude towards Africans, and their culture. It was far from perfect from an anti-racist standpoint to be sure, but the kind of expression that finds its way into a lot of European discourse, which is latently prejudiced but not far from the norm, and hardly exceptional.
Its in the category of Mel Lastman's comments about being boiled and eaten by canibals if he went to Africa.
That said, I am not sure its a shooting offense.
But, in fact that was not the specific "tweet" you first identified as being offensive, it was the "gas chamber" and "subhumans" tweet that you mentioned on page one of this thread.
I think you missed SJ's point, which is quite simply that the "appropriation" of the "language of the opressor" as a means of defusing its intentions, and making it a matter of pride, as in African-Americans appropriating a form of the "N" word in order to render it powerless, is quite similar to Lisitsa appropriating the language of Prime Minister Yatseneuk's speech about "cleansing" Ukraine of the "inhumans". But perhaps you are juxtaposing "real" Ukrainian culture and nationhood, against faux variety or ethnic Russian-Ukrainians, which I suppose is a made up fairy tale, and so undeserving of the same respect as the dominant Ukrainian society, as a distinct minority who might be persecuted.
Whatever you may think, Lisista, quite evidently disagrees and self-identifies as being part of a distinct ethnic group inside of Ukrainians society.
Whatever you may think, Lisista, quite evidently disagrees and self-identifies as being part of a distinct ethnic group inside of Ukrainians society.Like Afrikaners?
Like trolls.
Whatever you may think, Lisista, quite evidently disagrees and self-identifies as being part of a distinct ethnic group inside of Ukrainians society.And it can't be racist because you think someone else said something worse? How does that make sense?
Refering to her tweet about "gas chambers" for "subhumans" who can reduce their "carbon footprint", which I read as ironic anti-racist commentary, in the context of Yatseneuk's statement about "cleansing" "our land" of "evil" "inhumans", which it clearly refers to. But you think it is racist?
These are not isolated comments. Lisitsa comment underscores what is particularly bad about Yatseneuk's barely concealed call for ethnic cleansing. But you are claiming that you can look at it as a "stand alone" smear, and categorize it as "racist"?
Like trolls.
I stand by my point. The many "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine aren't there because they all applied for citizenship, took the entrance test, signed the papers and got sworn in.
But if you feel that the Russians in Ukraine are an example of "benevolent colonialism" then feel free to say.
I'm a bit surprised that on a board that's so plainly anti-colonialism, the history of Russian and Soviet colonialism is so cheerfully dismissed as water under the bridge. They're the oppressed ones now!!
Wow Magoo, assuming you're not trolling, your view of ethnic Russians in Ukraine as "colonialist" is tragically ignorant. Ukraine is not Estonia. Get over it. Or, tell me you're trolling, and we can be friends again.
