Trans Pacific Partnership and Election

let me get this straight the Liberals and Conservatives have repeatedly betrayed Canadians for 150 year, but yet pondering is sickened by the NDP.

the liberals already counting their theoretical chickens started greedily reaching out  and got outted but it's okay because we know they're wolves.

the NDP are going to bring actual benefits to Canadians and they're bad... got it!!!!

Pondering wrote:

Kevin Page said the Liberal budget is realistic and the NDP one is based on old numbers.

That's not true.  The NDP updated their numbers using the July Monetary Policy Report from the PBO, which is also what the Liberals based their numbers on for their platform.

NDP platform wrote:

The Parliamentary Budget Officer provided an update to the Budget 2015 fiscal outlook in July 2015, at the request of the New Democrats. This analysis used the Bank of Canada’s real GDP forecast from its July Monetary Policy Report in order to conduct this update.

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

OK, I'm moving on. But I had to speak up; I wanted my motivations undrstood. I was taught in life that we are responsible for each other, that's why I vote NDP, and am a Marxist by leaning.

And I am repulsed by the NDP for betraying Canadians, for being two-faced, for pretending to be a social justice party when they are not. They are just using TPP as a last ditch attempt to save votes. 

The Liberals may be wolves, but they are not wolves in sheep's clothing. That would be the NDP.

This, is, amazing.

Inside the TPP: Trading People For Profit

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/16/inside-the-tpp-trading-people-for...

"...Why keep it secret? What is in the text that compels negotiating governments to hide it away from public scrutiny? Here's a hint: the only way to complete the deal is to keep it hidden from the very people who would have to live with its consequences."

Fighting the TPP: 12 Parts of Attack

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/19/fighting-the-tpp-12-points-of-a-a...

"It's primary purpose is to rewrite global economic rules in favor of capital."

If Trudeau signs the TPP, he is a Quisling, a traitor, an enemy of workers, should immediately resign, step down as Party leader and call an election!

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radiorahim wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

If Trudeau signs the TPP, he is a Quisling, a traitor, an enemy of workers, should immediately resign, step down as Party leader and call an election!

Trudeau will sign the TPP as is.  And as far as "re-negotiating" the deal that isn't happening either.   Possibly a PM Mulcair would have signed it too after having failed to re-negotiate it.   Chretien promised to re-negotiate the Canada/US FTA, the U.S. said "NO" and that was that.   He then went on to sign on to NAFTA.

A 12 country deal is even more difficult than a two country deal to re-negotiate.   You either accept it as a whole or you reject it as a whole.   There is no other position to take.

The only hope is that one of the other countries decides to sink the deal.   That happened with the ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement) that Canada also signed on to.   It was sunk after huge opposition in Poland.

Trudeau is the leader of our Nation. He is the boss now. No one else. Him! This will be on HIS shoulders; there's no way around this. If he signs this. it shows he stands for the power of Corproations over the power of ordinary Canadians. He has to decide for whom he works, us, or his 1% buddies? If he decides wrongly and signs TPP, it wil be his resposbilitity, and his only. Sorry Libs, he's the PM, the leader of all Canadians, he said so himself. So he will own this. It will exclusively be his and he will wear it, and it will hound him all the rest of his days. Historians will write best selling tomes talking about how he sold Canada down the drain. It will NEVER be forgotten. And come 2019, it will be what shows him the door. This is a TRULY delecious irony. You clowns wanted power cuz you think you know better; well you got it! Deal with the consequences and stop whining because Canadians voted for you lying thugs. What a bunch of babies! I love this!

Only another country can kill this; Canada can't? Canada HAS to sign the deal, their's no other choice? You REALLY want us to believe Junior is facing a Hobson's choice? What the hell kind of leader is he? A pathetic one! How cowardly! How fearful. How irresonsible and morally bankrupt!

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Trudeau is the leader of our Nation. He is the boss now. No one else. Him. This will be on HIS shoulders, there's no way around this. If he signs this it shows he stands for the power of Corproations over the power of oridnary Canadians. He has to decide for whom he works, us, or his 1% buddies. If he decides wrongly and signs TPP, it wil be his resposbilitity, and his only. Sorry Libs, he's the PM, the leader of all Canadians, he said so himself. So he will own this. It will exclusively be his and he will wear it, and it will hound him all the rest of his days. Historians will write best selling tomes talking about how he sold Canada down the drain. It will NEVER be forgotten. And come 2015, it will be what shows him the door. This is a TRULY delecious irony. You clowns wanted power cuz you think you know better; well you got it! Deal with the consequences and stop whining because Canadians voted for you lying thugs. What a bunch of babies! I love this!

Only another country can kill this; Canada can't? Canada HAS to sign the deal, their's no other choice? You REALLY want us to believe Junior is facing a Hobson's choice? What the hell kind of leader is he? A pathetic one! How cowardly! How fearful. How irresonsible and morally bankrupt!

No one would invade if Canada backs out of the deal. The issue is the economic damage that it would cause if the other countries move forward without us. Maybe that is inaccurate but if so that argument hasn't been made.

Yes, if Trudeau approves it he will wear it, but the premiers will have their say and so will parliament. If he approves it, not that I doubt he will, it will be with the support of the majority of Canadians, or at least not against the will of the majority.

It is up to the NDP to make the argument against it good enough to convince the majority of Canadians that it is a a bad deal that we shouldn't sign.

This whole post shows the basic weakness of every one of your arguments. History is a long and continuos progression. Candians arguable embraced gh NAFTA and there is now considerable public opinon against NAFTA; at the time, Canadians didnt understand the issue. As time progresses and they are shown what is actually happneig, the inane and reptiitive commetary of uthinking sycophants like yourself will become more and more ignored. Sure, TPP will pass, maybe with public support, but once time has had its way and the TPP is shown to do the real damage it will, TPP will lose its support, and those who advocated for it, starting with the leader of our country will, to borrow from common venacular, "will wear it". That leader is your leader, Pondering, Junior. Sure, Lib flackies will write defending him but just like his dad with the NEP, he'll wear the TPP. Its inevitable, its unavoidable, its deliously ironic. And he will grow to be just as reviled, but more so, because this time this is something that will actually severally, and for the long term, hurt oridnary Canadians in a very real way. Remember Pondering, "you can't fool all the people, all the time", although juding from your posts you seem to think Lincoln was crazy.

And you, through your support of the Liberals, are foristing this war on basic economic soverignty on ordinary Canadians, seeminly, with great enthusiasm. It doesn't matter if you say you hate TPP, YOU VOTED LIBERAL. So its YOUR fault, too. Or do you think that Harry Truman was wrong, and that fact "the buck stops here', only sometimes? I'm guessing that is what you think.

By the way, I still haven't been told to correct any lies. I guess I didn't make any.

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

  This whole post shows the basic weakness of every one of your arguments. History is a long and continuos progression. Candians arguable embraced gh NAFTA and there is now considerable public opinon against NAFTA; at the time, Canadians didnt understand the issue. As time progresses and they are shown what is actually happneig, the inane and reptiitive commetary of uthinking sycophants like yourself will become more and more ignored. Sure, TPP will pass, maybe with public support, but once time has had its way and the TPP is shown to do the real damage it will, TPP will lose its support, and those who advocated for it, starting with the leader of our country will, to borrow from common venacular, "will wear it".

I haven't noticed any demands by anyone in Canada that NAFTA be rescinded. The NDP certainly hasn't made it an issue.

The NDP failed to educate the public about TPP and CETA. Instead they focused on senate abolition and fighting the Liberals based on history. The NDP screwed themselves with their plan to be the New Liberal Party.

Arthur Cramer wrote:

That leader is your leader, Pondering, Junior. Sure, Lib flackies will write defending him but just like his dad with the NEP, he'll wear the TPP. Its inevitable, its unavoidable, its deliously ironic. And he will grow to be just as reviled, but more so, because this time this is something that will actually severally, and for the long term, hurt oridnary Canadians in a very real way. Remember Pondering, "you can't fool all the people, all the time", although juding from your posts you seem to think Lincoln was crazy.

Now you are bringing Lincoln into it? We don't know if Trudeau will sign it yet, though I agree he probably will, but if he does it with the support of Canadians then he is more respectful of democracy than you are.

Arthur Cramer wrote:

And you, through your support of the Liberals, are foristing this war on basic economic soverignty on ordinary Canadians, seeminly, with great enthusiasm. It doesn't matter if you say you hate TPP, YOU VOTED LIBERAL. So its YOUR fault, too. Or do you think that Harry Truman was wrong, and that fact "the buck stops here', only sometimes? I'm guessing that is what you think.

Now Truman? Tom Mulcair won my riding not the Liberals so my vote accomplished nothing but your vote and support of the NDP did lead to their failure because you were fine with them being low key on the trade deals and having a roll up the red carpet tour. You defended their lame platform planks and inane swipes at Trudeau. You played cheerleader for the NDP and paid the price. I've been saying for years they need to take up the fight against the trade deals while all you ever say is "they are better than the Liberals" as though that is a winning argument.

Arthur Cramer wrote:

By the way, I still haven't been told to correct any lies. I guess I didn't make any.

I did not use the term "kooky" so unless you can quote me you are still a liar. I just didn't bother reporting it because your lies are stupidities, schoolyard taunts. 

 

Oh brother, what a post! No, Pondering, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't been made to correct anything. You KNOW what I'm talking about.

NAFTA is slowly being recognized by Canadians for what it was.But TPP, because of the same Social Media you Libs exploited, will much more quickly be recogized for the anti-democatic sell out it is. Stick you fingers in your ears and sing la, la, la all you want. And Trudeau will sign TPP exactly as it. Why did he impose the Whip otherwise? Sorry, the FACTS aren't on your side.

Pondering wrote:

The issue is the economic damage that it would cause if the other countries move forward without us. Maybe that is inaccurate but if so that argument hasn't been made.

you're worried about economic damage to transworld corporations and their owners or shareholders?

Why the TPP Is An 'Economic NATO' (and vid)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wu-sike/tpp-economic-nato_b_8328014.html

"...Upon the opening of the financial sector, the partnership aims to construct a core financial system that will be dominated by the US dollar, so as to guarantee the future position for the dollar in the world. Financial capital of the 12 members will undergo deep integration under the TPP framework and will be mutually pegged.

This is one of the reasons by the TPP, compared with the arrangements for the opening of financial services in other international trade agreements is more profound and significant."

Lessons From NAFTA For the TPP

http://www.truthout.org/opinion/item/33344-lessons-from-nafta-for-the-tr...

"The lessons from NAFTA are a big part of the reason that the Obama administration is having so much trouble getting the TPP past Congress. Of course the TPP's proponents have also learned lessons from NAFTA.

That's why its contents have been kept secret from the public throughout the negotiations."

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Quizzical, this should not be a surprise to you to hear that siad on this board. This is a traditional argument; its always about we need to engage the world as it will benefit the world, because everyone knows, the world cares what Canada thinks, and that Canadians benefit when business benefits. If Pondering sticks around, barring something that causes Trudeau's govt to fall, expect to hear this over and over. Trudeau Sr. would talk this way. It goes back to the notion that Canada was nothing until Pearson made us great. And that ties into the next myth that the Liberals are the only party that can protect Canada and make us great, and that in turn ties into the LPC is "Canada's Natural Governing Party" I mean Pondering herself has already posted that Trudeau will govern for at least 10 years. She's right, the hell with elections. Let's make Trudeau King, throw the leaders of the other parties in jail, and then all gather in shrines all over Canada to worship on our knees at Justin's bust!

What we need to do is recognize that we live in a democracy. I'm not claiming he will govern for 2 to 3 election cycles because it is what I want, I would rather see a progressive NDP be reborn and start focusing on the 99%. It makes me angry that there is no political party in Canada interested in social justice for the 99%. 

Even now I hear mutterings that the NDP must represent the disenfrancised not the majority, as though the interests of the majority are addressed by the Liberals. Well if you believe that why shouldn't everyone else?

I agree whole-heartedly and strongly feel it would be a fatal mistake to place one's anti-TPP eggs solely in the NDP basket.

The real question that I've heard nobody answer is what happens if Canada backs out of the TPP.  Is NAFTA still in force?  Is Canada on its own?

Even Jim Stanford hasn't suggested that we should say no to the deal - he's just raised a lot of concerns with it.  The only person that I've heard would say no to the deal is Thomas Mulcair - and that was only after it was clear that he wasn't going to be Prime Minister.

It's easy to be against the deal but until I hear someone with credibility suggest that Canada can realistically back away from it, I'm assuming that we're going to be stuck with it.

Quote:

Who else's are you going to put in? Maude Barlow? She knew Justin was going to sign it. The NDP is the only force left. They chickened out but the Libs aren't an option. Trudeau put on the whip and SAID they will not be a free vote. From how he's phrased it it sounds like he's going to treat it as confidence vote. All the clowns on this board and elsewhere have been duped. After TPP is signed it won't matter. Because if the Corpirate rights provisions the government will be so busy fending off Multi National Corporations it won't have time to vote. Oh well I guess we can always eat Cake, right Le Dauphin. Pathetic!

Politics is much too important to be left to parties and politicians.  

Quote:

It's easy to be against the deal but until I hear someone with credibility suggest that Canada can realistically back away from it, I'm assuming that we're going to be stuck with it.

If one member country decides not to ratify, then there's a good chance that the whole thing will collapse.   That's what happened with "ACTA", the Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (which Canada also signed on to).   ACTA was sunk in Poland...and to some extent in Slovenia.

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:

# 10. We call for an end to all trade deals that interfere with our attempts to rebuild local economies, regulate corporations and stop damaging extractive projects.

One of the things we need to stop doing is calling these things "trade deals".   They mostly have nothing to do with trade.   They're about investor rights...specifically the rights of trans national corporations to operate in member countries as they see fit without pesky government regulations or legislation getting in the way.

Exactly. You start the debate in the hole once you agree to accept the proponents' description. That's just what the corporate media, the multi-nationals, the financial sector and the government carry out their dictates want.