The SARS-CoV-2 Economy (physical distancing & good hygiene)

NorthReport wrote:

Seven years now the stock market has been on a roll and yet the idiotic naysayers keep telling you the world is going to hell Yes there are problems like global warming but like every other problem faced by mankind we will overcome

You judge the well-being of the world on stock market conditions?

Well, at least NR finally managed to be outrageous enough to get some other babblers to comment on his stupid thread.

How do you reconcile your disparaging comments about 'the left' on a progressive board? I think it's time for you to get lost.

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both the greens and ndp are not challenging market dominance. certainly they are not calling for another economic system.

Back when people bartered potatoes and cloth for cooking pots, it was still the system.

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..and your equating capitalism with barter?

No, I'm equating barter with the earliest forms of the market.

Capitalism (private ownership of the means of production) is not a synonym for "the market", or "market forces" or "the law of supply and demand".

..while i don't agree with northreport on the values of the market i also don't see much difference with what he is saying and what the greens or ndp are saying. certainly not different than what mulcair said about balanced budgets and certainly not what notley is saying about the tarsands and pipelines.

..both the greens and ndp are not challenging market dominance. certainly they are not calling for another economic system. both tell us our problems can be resolved by tweaking the system and that they are the ones to do it. i believe this is fantasy but the system is not what is argued. what is argued is that the population will be better off than with the cons and libs. this may be true but doesn't deal with core issues.

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..i disagree and believe your definitions are to narrow.

I'm actually using the term pretty broadly -- a system in which things of value can be freely exchanged, and in which the "value" of any one thing is determined by the demand for it and the supply of it. 

My barter example simply alluded to this.  Back in the day, nobody would exchange a good cooking pot for a really smooth stone, or for a fruit that grows on all the local trees.  There's simply no demand for smooth stones, and there's an abundant and cheap supply of the fruit.

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markets today are one of many mechanisms of economic control and part and parcel of capitalism.

Left to their own devices, a market would be a very poor example of "economic control".  Economic control is basically when we try to force markets to do our bidding.

Note that I'm not endorsing totally free, unrestricted, uncontrolled markets here.  Just pointing out that the essence of the market is that no human nor government "controls" it -- supply and demand do.  Anything else that's oppressing anyone is an add-on to that.

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.what do you think of the rest of my post?

It doesn't read to me as a rejection of the market so much as a call for restrictions on it, or interference in it.

And I'm not saying that has to be a bad thing.  Minimum wage is a good example of "tweaking" the market to make it work better for us.  Socialized medicine is another huge tweak that we tend to think is a good one.  I'm sure there are lots more.

But I don't think you're ever going to escape "the market".  No matter under capitalism, socialism, communism, "juche", or barter, people want what they want (and will exchange more for it) and if it's a rare thing then they'll have to exchange more still for it.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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..i disagree and believe your definitions are to narrow.

I'm actually using the term pretty broadly -- a system in which things of value can be freely exchanged, and in which the "value" of any one thing is determined by the demand for it and the supply of it. 

My barter example simply alluded to this.  Back in the day, nobody would exchange a good cooking pot for a really smooth stone, or for a fruit that grows on all the local trees.  There's simply no demand for smooth stones, and there's an abundant and cheap supply of the fruit.

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markets today are one of many mechanisms of economic control and part and parcel of capitalism.

Left to their own devices, a market would be a very poor example of "economic control".  Economic control is basically when we try to force markets to do our bidding.

Note that I'm not endorsing totally free, unrestricted, uncontrolled markets here.  Just pointing out that the essence of the market is that no human nor government "controls" it -- supply and demand do.  Anything else that's oppressing anyone is an add-on to that.

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.what do you think of the rest of my post?

It doesn't read to me as a rejection of the market so much as a call for restrictions on it, or interference in it.

And I'm not saying that has to be a bad thing.  Minimum wage is a good example of "tweaking" the market to make it work better for us.  Socialized medicine is another huge tweak that we tend to think is a good one.  I'm sure there are lots more.

But I don't think you're ever going to escape "the market".  No matter under capitalism, socialism, communism, "juche", or barter, people want what they want (and will exchange more for it) and if it's a rare thing then they'll have to exchange more still for it.

..i am talking about stock markets as in the thread title. and that shouldn't be confused with markets in general no more than free trade deals should be confused with trade.

..i am talking about stock markets as instrument of manipulations and control. and this cannot be done by ordinary folks. mind you there was a postal strike that i was involved with way back when that drove down interest rates 2 or 3 points because of the importance of mail to business at the time..but this is not common occurrence. but it is common occurrence when it comes to hedge funds, governments, banks, corporations..powerful forces in other words. in order to force compliance or a falling into line that can be used during elections, political stands, propping up failing corporations and much much more. greece is an example.

..what i suggested by my narrow definition comment is that this extends the power of the owners of production to market forces and so not separate but a kind of hegemony. part and parcel of capitalism. we the people can live without today's stock markets and this is transformable via focus on local economies.
 
..i believe your example of socialized medicine and minimum wage is an example of what i'm saying. stock markets weren't happy by these occurrences. and today i doubt very much that a government here in canada could pass socialized medicine without a fight that no party would be willing to put up. a fight much bigger than what took place back in the 40', 50's and 60's. save qs should they come to power. they i believe could mount such a struggle.

..only it’s not a baby but a monster.

..it’s investment in “successful” corporations that exploit working folks, it’s investment in “successful” corporations that rape the earth and exploit the third world to the hilt. humongous salaries and shares for those at the top of “successful” corporations at the expense of the shareholder. it's investment in "successful" corporations that prosper from free trade deals. canadian pension plans invest in the “successful” arms industry for fuck sake’s.

..the benefits to humanity are minimal compared to the destruction those markets cause.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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..it’s investment in “successful” corporations that exploit working folks, it’s investment in “successful” corporations that rape the earth and exploit the third world to the hilt. humongous salaries and shares for those at the top of “successful” corporations at the expense of the shareholder. it's investment in "successful" corporations that prosper from free trade deals. canadian pension plans invest in the “successful” arms industry for fuck sake’s.

What specific role does the stock market play in any of that?  You're talking about (stereotypically bad) corporations, not the stock market.

..when you take snippets from my posts you leave behind my logic and so sometimes i need to repeat myself.

..capitalism integrates into our economic and political systems via a series of systemic institutions. the stock market is one such institution. it facilitates corporations to do what they do. it is not enough to debate whether this is good or bad but to understand the connections. the connections that lead to why the world is in such a deep global crisis in 2016. why with all the wealth the world produces there is so much poverty and destruction. imho i am pointing to the very centre of what needs to change. and that solutions lie in a different direction.  

txs magoo

..what i have said and continue to say is that a better world begins with local control.