Lib government pay system mess affects 80,000 workers

oh but Sophie needs a wage......

did ya read the article magoo?

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The system has been plagued with problems since it rolled out earlier this year.

It's more than a little ridiculous to lay this on the Liberal government at all and shows extreme partisanship. The ship of state does not turn on a dime. The Harper Government, contractors, and civil servants are responsible for this screw-up. Apparently Trudeau has stepped in personally to correct the situation which I do NOT give him credit for because he is only doing what we should expect of our government. Blaming him for not catching it sooner is ridiculous.

If it were any other employer they would be going belly-up and banks would be seizing assets not unions.

In a briefing last week, Public Services and Procurement Minister Judy Foote said that 720 federal employees — mostly new hires and students — had contacted the government about not being paid since the Phoenix pay system was implemented earlier this year, and that 486 of them would get a lump sum of back pay on Wednesday. Another 1,100 workers have not received parental, long-term disability or severance payments, while more than 80,000 employees entitled to supplementary pay for extra duties, overtime or pay adjustments have had problems.

In an emailed statement Tuesday, Public Services and Procurement Canada spokesman Pierre-Alain Bujold said the government "is on target" to provide the lump sum payments to those 486 people who haven't been paid, adding that an update on the situation will be provided Thursday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-payday-troubles-public-serv...

It is certainly an urgent situation for those affected and it is certainly the responsiblity of the Liberal administration to fix it but they are not responsible for the screw up nor are they responsible for the failure of the civil servants to correct the issue. Civil servants should be fired for this screw up but there is no doubt in my mind that unions will protect the civil servants who are most likely at fault for not fixing this situation sooner.

Pondering wrote:

It's more than a little ridiculous to lay this on the Liberal government at all and shows extreme partisanship.

bs. if this was the Conservatives or the NDP i would be saying the same damn thing.

your diminishing of the dire situation words are what smack of partisanship.

have a read of mark's cited words below yours.

asking for Sophie to get a wage while real government employees are suffering is nasty ass all the way.

Here'a a good timeline of the introduction of the Phoenix pay system:

Phoenix

Quote:

2009: Tories launch plans to update the pay system

Under minister Rona Ambrose, Public Works launches a two-part plan to transform public service pay: consolidate all work in Miramichi, and replace the 40-year-old payment system. The business case is approved and Public Works starts the procurement process. Costs are pegged at $310M, of which $187M will be pay system.

2010: Harper promises 550 jobs in Miramichi

Employees will do the work of 2,700 compensation advisors scattered across the country

2011: IBM Canada receives a contract to implement the new system. It is awarded a total of $141M between 2011 and spring of 2016. 

One of the things that has been missing from the story is the role of IBM Canada. This was an 'off-the-shelf' system provided by them. Whatever one says about the competence or otherwise of the governments involved, doesn't IBM have some responsibility to see that the system they created actually works?

This is reminiscent of the Compass Card fiasco in BC. Another technological roll-out that took years, and cost a couple of hundred million dollars.

If you want to look into another government/political blunder, do some research into wait times for ex-forces personal to receive military pension.

Average wait time is between 5-8 months.

Severance package wait time is 3-5 months.

I am assuming other government departments pensions are also screwed up.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

For an application of this size, "off-the-shelf" would imply a product whose base design and code has been completed and tested (both by the vendor and by others who licenced the application).  It wouldn't mean "buy it, install it and go" like you or I licensing MS Office... 

The very first sentence of the timeline story I posted:

Quote:

Months after the federal government went live with its new off-the-shelf system to process payments to its 300,000 federal employees, thousands of public servants across the country are still reporting problems.

Now, I am taking them at their word. Perhaps they're wrong,  but the point is, does the vendor of the software have any responsibility to see that it works in practice, or do they just give you the disc and tell you to go for it. I suspect that in an application of this magnitude, some after sale support would be a part of the sale.

If I was responsible for this procurement, I would be on the phone daily to the supplier to get them to provide support for their product, and if they didn't, I would suspend payment.

But like I said, this is like the BC Compass card fiasco which turned into a long, drawn out, very expensive foray into the world of high-tech.

Given the rise of technology, and the importance of it's use within governments, perhaps it's time for a Ministry of Technology to admininster the various technologies used. As it is, governments seem to be unable to marshal the resources needed to determine the best technology, and the best use of technology.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

...I suspect that's the case as well.  But is there evidence that IBM is just walking away??

I also suspect that considerable customizations were part of the tender.  Applications such as this will always need to be customized to accomodate jurisdictional requirements, local standards and customer preferences.

To put it another way, do you suppose that IBM Canada had a copy of their Canadian national payroll application on some CDs in a box on the shelf, just waiting and hoping for the one and only possible buyer of a Canadian national payroll application -- the government of Canada?

I think my point was more in the line of, why is everyone blaming the government as though they wrote the program. Normally when someone sells a product, they have at least some responsibility to see that it works. I haven't seen any mention of IBM's role in this screw-up, except as they were mentioned in the timeline.

As far as whether IBM had the program in a box on the shelf, that is in fact what 'off-the-shelf' means, isn't it? However, I do agree that whatever they sold, it would have to have some modification. I assume that would be true for any purchaser. So I doubt it' a case where the only purchaser to ask for modification of the program would be the government. It would be something IBM dealt with in almost every sale.

At the same time, I doubt they sold the product to the government with a warning that they were going to have endless problems getting it up and running. I rather suspect their sales pitch included something to the effect that this was a great product, and was going to be relatively easy to carry out.

Unionist,

No, it is the beginning of payments that I am referring too. I left the military tomorrow; I have to wait upwards of 8 months before I get the first check.

They are telling anyone wanting to retire to plan according.

Quote:

I think my point was more in the line of, why is everyone blaming the government as though they wrote the program.

Short answer:  Check the thread title.  We're not talking about the IBM pay system, we're talking about the Liberal government pay system.

Quote:

As far as whether IBM had the program in a box on the shelf, that is in fact what 'off-the-shelf' means, isn't it?

Well, kind of.  For regular consumers like you and me, it would mean some desktop appication that we install and use and that hopefully works.  At a national scale, I'm just suggesting it would mean software that's mostly already written, but needs customization.  Like the difference between your tailor making you a truly bespoke suit, versus taking one off the rack, hemming the cuffs, darting the shoulders, taking in the waistband, etc.

Quote:

I rather suspect their sales pitch included something to the effect that this was a great product, and was going to be relatively easy to carry out.

I'm sure they had good things to say.  But it's not yet clear whether the problems were with base code, customizations, or user implementation (known as "pilot error" to support staff).

Quote:

after the first pay period fk up they should've started cutting cheques the old fashioned way.

I don't even disagree.

But look at the thread title.  We're here to talk about the "Liberal government" pay system.  And it's a computer system, so the problem isn't going to be water in the carburetor.  It's for sure "programming shit".

Well, the thread title is nice, but useless as a starting point for this discussion because the pay system was written by IBM, and procured by the last Conservative government. Here's a story on how this all took place:

A Phoenix that doesn't fly

Quote:

In his early, frolicsome years as prime minister, Stephen Harper’s Conservatives announced an ambitious plan: pay all of Canada’s federal public servants through an automated national system. It would be a stroke of genius. The Tories won praise for finishing on time and saving money. The Liberals launched the Phoenix payment system this winter.

There was only one problem: It didn’t work.

...Let me take you back to 2009. Public Services and Procurement unveiled a plan to replace Canada’s archaic regional payment system with a centralized setup, run out of Miramichi, N.B. Under the old system, 2,400 advisers were spread across the country, managing compensation for each individual government department.

The Miramichi centre was to be more efficient: only 550 advisers were hired to direct payment for the public service as a whole. Just think of the savings! The Conservatives did: they expected to save $70 million annually by 2016.

...there’s a bit more backstory. Phoenix is an IBM program; the company started work on the public service’s system in 2011. It was green-lit for use in 34 government departments in February. The remaining 67 were slotted under Phoenix in April.

...According to the NDP, everyone can be a scapegoat. “The Conservatives were wrong to imagine that the federal government could effectively replace its payroll systems with off-the-shelf software from IBM operated by a single pay centre,” Erin Weir, the party’s public works critic, said in a statement on Monday. “The Liberals were wrong to implement Phoenix this year even after employees at Miramichi warned that the system was not ready.”

There's that 'off-the-shelf' thing again. I don't want to let the Liberals off the hook too easily, but the fact is this program was initiated 7 years ago. The Liberals came to power just as the program was about to begin. At that point, it would have been pretty much impossible to either change anything, or indeed, even stop it. Most of the infrastructure of the old system would already have been deep-sixed, so there was nothing to go back to.

Unfortunately we can't drag Harper back to force him to do something about it, and I suspect the contract with IBM is such that they're in the clear as well. All one can really say is that in the future, be more careful about purchasing and instituting huge new software systems. I've already suggested this, but I think it's worth reiterating. Given the importance of technological systems to the running of the government, there really should be a separate minstry to handle, install and monitor new technologies.

Webgear wrote:

Here are some stories about the delays. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/outdated-understaffed-system-causes-pension-delay-for-canadian-reservists/article28276286/

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/06/27/six-month-wait-for-military-pension-drove-vet-to-the-brink.html

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/06/27/veterans-turning-to-charity-due-to-military-pension-delays.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/retired-veteran-scott-costen-upset-about-wait-for-pension-benefits-1.3116051

 

Here is some information on the CF Pension Plan 

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/fac-caf/vedette-feature1-eng.html

On July 4, 2016, the administration of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) pension plans was transitioned to Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC).

 

There are several Veterans and Union Groups fighting to speed up the wait times. 

http://psacunion.ca/canadian-government-cuts-veterans-staff-services

I will try and dig up some more links tomorrow.

 

Have a good night.

 

Thanks for all this, Webgear. I knew of course about the closure of Veterans' Affairs offices, but not about these delays, which have been going on for years. It's outrageous.

mark_alfred wrote:

...Generally backups are made.  The government was notified that phase one wasn't working properly.  Yet they pushed ahead anyway.

This isn't a case where 'backups are made'. The only way to implement a new system such as this without worrying about screw-ups is to run the old system and the new system side by side. That would be more of less impossible in this case, so what is the government to do? As I said, most of the old system infrastructure would have already been gone, so there was nothing to go back to.

Think about it like this. Let's say the electricity fails at a bank. Could they continue to operate? Nope. I had someone tell me once well they could just write stuff down like they used to. It never occurred to them that the forms didn't exist any more, the means to process the forms didn't exist any more, there was nothing left of the old system.

I believe that's probably what the current government faced. Somebody could warn them the new system wasn't working properly, but that doesn't help if there isn't enough of the old system left to return to. In other words, if they hadn't gone ahead, nobody would have been paid because they was no way to pay them without the new system.

This is not an uncommon thing when old systems are replaced with new ones.

Of course I sympathize with the unpaid employees. Everybody should get paid. If I had been in charge of the original contract, I would have put in language to that effect. The current government was not responsible for this contract, but they're stuck with it.

As I mentioned before, another prime example is the implementation of the Compass Cards in BC. A very long drawn out, very expensive, program that no one seemed responsible for.

quizzical wrote:

there's no excuses for employees not to be paid for all this time. it's been months. no existing way to do it now is bs.

it takes 2 fkn mins to make up a hard copy time sheet for employees to fill out for submission.

there's even the governments own program they can use for their own merc calculations.

the current government is responsible for NOT paying employees for months.

Which only confirms what I said about people not realizing what happens when things change. Yes. each person could fill out a tiime card, just as in the bank each person could fill out a deposit slip. Then what?

Well of course! Then each individual office manager from each individual office could collect the time cards and spend the rest of the day writing checks from the checkbook the government would give them to make sure that each employee got paid. The checkbook could be full of plain checks, and the government could give the office managers the account number on which the checks drawn, and they could write that in too. At the end of the year the individual managers could fill out the employees T4 documents using those records they stored in the back room, ensuring the employees could file their taxes on time. They would save those time cards for the future when the new system is up and running, and the information could be input in the new database, and the amounts already paid to the employees would be subtracted from the amount the machine says each employee should get, and all would be well. In fact, I don't know why they need a system at all. They could just do it the way they did 50 years ago.

And in fact that might be true, but is was not the Liberal government that decided to change the system. It was the Conservatives, who at one and the same time wanted to cut payroll costs, and offer a bunch of new jobs in New Brunswick. Both electorally smart decisions.

Unfortunately, they didn't spend enough time doing their research into how this was all going to take place, and who was going to be responsible to see that it worked. Once again, as is often the case in government, electoral and financail considerations took top spot. Reality came second.

Government is now a centre for private profit and IBM, the company behind Phoenix is no doubt making out like a bandit.

You'll note that IBM is also the company behind the social assistance payment fiasco in Ontario.

quizzical wrote:

oh so you think employees should just shut the hell up then and get over it as there's no way they can get paid.

ffs typical Liberal excuses

Could you quote the part where I said emplyees should just shut the hell up? In fact I was just pointing out the reality of the situation.

You can try with all your might to get the square peg into the round hole, but it won't go.

What I'm suggesting to you is that the situation the Liberal government finds themselves in is, first off, not their doing, and secondly, there is no easy fix.

Personally, I think the employess have a perfect right to complain, and they should complain. But complaining by itself will not fix anything. This reminds of the time a BC Ferry, coming into Horseshoe Bay terminal, lost the ability to reverse the screws. It was only going two knots or so, but it came into the dock, and just kept coming, and coming, and coming, destroying everything in its path. All the hand waving and shouting in the world wouldn't have made an iota's worth of difference.

That's more or less what we have here. A disaster that was many years in the planning and implementation (seven, at last count), with no way of reversing or changing it now. It's too late. Unfortunately, the only path is to continue forward, and hope that eventually the problems get worked out. In the meantime, I honestly have no idea how the government should get money to the employees. They do need to do that, but they need to do it in such a way that the employees are properly paid, and that the records of the payments are kept for tax purposes.

If it was me, I don't know, maybe I'd just get a sack of money from the bank and hand it out to each employee come payday, because that should be the first consideration.

Many years ago I worked for NCR, a technology company. When I left the company, I had pension money that was coming to me as part of my severance. Unfortunately for me, at around the same time, NCR decided to change something in the system, and it took months to get that money. In the meantime no one could tell me what was going on, or when the money would get paid out, or even who was in charge. NCR is a company that deals almost exclusively in technology, and they screwed up their system so badly it took forever to get it straightened out.

This isn't the first time that some technological solution has failed, and it's unlikely to be the last. If it had been up to me, I would have been a lot more careful of how the contract was awarded, and how the system was implemented. However, they didn't call on me to help out.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Government is now a centre for private profit and IBM, the company behind Phoenix is no doubt making out like a bandit.

If this project was properly tendered -- and assuming the problems are IBM's fault, not "pilot error" -- then IBM should actually be losing profit as this wears on.  I very much doubt that the tender said "If the application fails to meet the criteria of this tender, we'll pay you in full anyway, then pay you again to fix it at your leisure".

This is a good point, but one that eluded Erin Weir. When questioning the minister in charge, the details of responsibility for seeing the system up and running should have been examined.

Given it was the Conservative government who signed the contract, I doubt IBM will have much to worry about...