Such sad and unsubstantial commentary.
Official Rabble Floor Crossing Thread
Fri, 2016-11-18 10:41
#52
Fri, 2016-11-18 13:06
#53
...the "principles" everyone is talking about, namely NDP opposers here and those who are to pure to breath the air the rest of us do, is bs.i don't give a shit about the NDP federal or provincial per se but i trust Rachel completely. at least she is caring enough to try and creat a better future for AB as opposed to those who want exploit or see the demise of the province.
The question isn't whether the Alberta NDP is pure or not. The point is they have taken the position in the past that floor-crossing is a betrayal of the voters. If that is indeed the position of the party, then one would expect them to maintain that position throughout.
Either there is a principle, or there isn't. If the NDP, in the past, had stated clearly that it was the right of an MLA to leave the party under whose banner they had been elected, and cross over to some other party, then I would say there was no problem.
But that isn't the caes, is it? They very clearly expressed their disdain for floor-crossing in the past, even if the condemnation was not specifically of the floor-crossers but of the party that accepted them.
If it was me, I would say that an MLA can cross to any party they wish, for any reason they wish. If the party they belong to doesn't allow them to represent their constituents in the way they feel they should be able to, then leaving that party is fine with me, and joining another party is fine with me as well. The specific MLA will have to face the voters at next election. At the same time, the party that accepts the floor-crosser also has to face the voters next time around, and accepting a floor-crosser may have an effect on who the voters choose to support (it happened last election, didn't it?).
The point is, once having stated that opinion (or principle, if you will), I would stick by it. I wouldn't suddenly change my mind when I thought it was in my favour to do so.
It isn't that I demand the NDP adhere to my level of 'purity'. It's that I suggest the party adhere to it's own stated position. The real test of someone's principles is not what they do when maintaining their position doesn't cost them, it's what they do when maintainng their position does cost them. That's what separates those who have principles from those who don't.
Fri, 2016-11-18 13:14
#54
As long as we have an FPTP system in which we elect people not assign seats based on parties' proportional vote, then I see no reason for an individual to run in a byelection.
Fri, 2016-11-18 14:34
#55
Floor crossing seems to be a favourite pastime amongst Albertan politicians. The electorate of the province does not seem to have any problem with the practice and instead re-elects some floor crossers and don't re-elect others but floor crossing don't ever seem to be the driving issue.
The idea that this has anything to do with federal politics is absurd. This needs to go to the ALberta section.
Fri, 2016-11-18 17:05
#56
The idea that this has anything to do with federal politics is absurd. This needs to go to the ALberta section.
If that is the case then why did NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair stick his nose into the provincial by-election in Sudbury? He went to campaign in Sudbury and rally the troops. Slaming Glenn Thibeault as "beneath contempt," and a turncoat.
Charlie Angus wrote on his website about Glenn Thibeault
Mr. Thibeault's decision speaks to a cynicism that is choking Canadian politics. Some politicians seem to forget they were elected, not on their personality, but because a lot of ordinary people did the hard work of putting up signs, working the phones and knocking on doors. These people volunteer because they believe the candidate will represent the vision of the party.I am very sorry that Mr. Thibeault decided that a backroom deal with insiders trumps this covenant. It sends a message that you can't trust the promises of politicians. I spent my political life fighting this cynicism. The reason I joined the NDP is because I believe the "best offer" a politician can have is to stand up for the ordinary people of this country who are not being represented by insiders and the well-connected. This was the vision I shared with Jack Layton and it is why I'll work with Tom Mulcair to elect the New Democrats to government in 2015. I am only sorry it is no longer the vision of Glenn Thibeault.
So why did the Federal NDP stick their nose into a provincial matter, and do everything they could to try and defeat Glenn Thibeault?
If you think it was OK for the Federal NDP to meddle in a provincial matter, then the thread should stay in this section. Because the Alberta Floor Crossing does affect the Federal NDP.
Fri, 2016-11-18 17:06
#57
As long as we have an FPTP system in which we elect people not assign seats based on parties' proportional vote, then I see no reason for an individual to run in a byelection.
I'm not sure what FPTP has to do with this. We elect people AND we elect parties at the same time.
When I voted, for example, for Jennifer Hollett, I was voting for her, and voting for the NDP. Had she won and crossed the floor then my vote would have been essentially given to another party, and that's not what I voted for.
Fri, 2016-11-18 17:10
#58
NDP Ontario Leader Andrea Horwath policy on Floor Crossing
Horwath said if an opposition member does cross, he or she should immediately resign and contest a by-election under their new party banner.“Absolutely — this is what I would hope would happen in Quebec,” she said, referring to Lise St-Denis switching from NDP to the Liberals
“Let’s face it, if you were elected as an MPP under a certain political banner and then you decide to cross the floor, the very least you should do is resign your seat and force a by-election and run under the other banner.”
So this thread should remain here because the topic is on the broader scope of floor crossing in the various NDP parties across the country, in addition to the federal NDP.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:06
#59
This is very common in AB. We have a MLA who crossed the floor twice. Jansen claimed that her life was being turned into basically hell by the PC's. I don't particulary like floor crossing but I don't see it as a big deal. As for federal implications there are none. Provincial parties disagree with their federal counterparts all the time and on much more to mportant issues on whether or not we should have a byelection.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:18
#60
This is very common in AB. We have a MLA who crossed the floor twice. Jansen claimed that her life was being turned into basically hell by the PC's. I don't particulary like floor crossing but I don't see it as a big deal. As for federal implications there are none. Provincial parties disagree with their federal counterparts all the time and on much more to mportant issues on whether or not we should have a byelection.
The problem is that Rachel Notley was opposed to Floor Crossing in 2015
Rachel Notley on Video (2015)
"Floor Crossing not a good thing" basically saying they are abandoning their voters.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:19
#61
Double Post
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:28
#62
Epiphanies happen when they happen. :)
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:28
#63
The problem is that Rachel Notley was opposed to Floor Crossing in 2015
Yeah, but that was before anyone crossed the floor to the NDP.
Similarly, Justin Trudeau was opposed to FPTP before he became PM under FPTP.
Surely people are entitled to change their views when circumstances change?
ETA: By the way, on a more serious note, and not that it matters, but I opposed the federal NDP's floor-crossing bill at the time. It was based on the "principle" that once elected, politicians can do whatever they want to whomever they want without having to resign and face the voters - except join another caucus.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:35
#64
This is very common in AB. We have a MLA who crossed the floor twice. Jansen claimed that her life was being turned into basically hell by the PC's. I don't particulary like floor crossing but I don't see it as a big deal. As for federal implications there are none. Provincial parties disagree with their federal counterparts all the time and on much more to mportant issues on whether or not we should have a byelection.The problem is that Rachel Notley was opposed to Floor Crossing in 2015
Rachel Notley on Video (2015)
"Floor Crossing not a good thing" basically saying they are abandoning their voters.
Yup, that is the political problem for her. The right wing press is already running with it. She will have to make the case that this is different.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:38
#65
The idea that this has anything to do with federal politics is absurd. This needs to go to the ALberta section.
If that is the case then why did NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair stick his nose into the provincial by-election in Sudbury? He went to campaign in Sudbury and rally the troops. Slaming Glenn Thibeault as "beneath contempt," and a turncoat.
Your guess is as good as mine as to why Mulcair sometimes makes bad decisions. The idea that the Alberta NDP accepting a floor crosser will have any effect on the federal NDP is absurd. Its a minor issue and becomes an irrelevant one when the minor issue is about a different party.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:43
#66
The idea that the Alberta NDP accepting a floor crosser will have any effect on the federal NDP is absurd.
And the next time a floor crossing happens on the federal scene, and the NDP complains about it, all their critics have to do is point to the Sandra Jansen example.
Fri, 2016-11-18 18:58
#67
She will have to make the case that this is different.
Or she could just say "This is different, OK?? I could explain it but I don't think you'd understand. It's just ... DIFFERENT."
Fri, 2016-11-18 19:45
#68
The idea that the Alberta NDP accepting a floor crosser will have any effect on the federal NDP is absurd.And the next time a floor crossing happens on the federal scene, and the NDP complains about it, all their critics have to do is point to the Sandra Jansen example.
First - How many votes do you think that complaining about floor crossings gained them in the last election? I hope you will admit the answer is zero to none.
Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Fri, 2016-11-18 19:59
#69
Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
Fri, 2016-11-18 20:05
#70
Good discussion at this thread.
http://rabble.ca/babble/alberta-and-british-columbia/pc-mla-sandra-janse...
Fri, 2016-11-18 20:05
#71
Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
How Christy Clark's confrontational approach with teachers could tarnish Justin Trudeau
http://www.straight.com/news/308211/how-christy-clarks-confrontational-a...
Sat, 2016-11-19 01:37
#72
Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
You are so right. This is going to be THE issue for the 2019 federal election. Forget the economy, global warming, or inequality the issue people will vote will be Jansen's floor crossing.
Sat, 2016-11-19 01:37
#73
Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
You are so right. This is going to be THE issue for the 2019 federal election. Forget the economy, global warming, or inequality the issue people will vote will be Jansen's floor crossing.
Sat, 2016-11-19 10:12
#74
You are so right. This is going to be THE issue for the 2019 federal election. Forget the economy, global warming, or inequality the issue people will vote will be Jansen's floor crossing.Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
It's not as if trivial issues ever come up on the campaign trail that distract from everything else that's going on. Remember when Stephen Harper tried to make the niqab an issue during the federal campaign but everyone ignored it because there were much more serious issues at stake?
Sat, 2016-11-19 10:46
#75
You are so right. This is going to be THE issue for the 2019 federal election. Forget the economy, global warming, or inequality the issue people will vote will be Jansen's floor crossing.
No one is suggesting this is going to be an issue in the election. All I'm saying is that the next time a floor crossing takes place on the federal scene, and the NDP complain, all their critics have to do is point to the Sandra Jansen example.
For instance when Eve Adams crossed thr floor from Government to the 3rd party (Liberals), the NDP were outraged. It didn't even affect their own party, yet they are sticking their nose into what the Liberals were doing. Here is the speech
Mr. Speaker, a week ago, the Liberal leader proudly announced one of the most embarrassing floor crossings any of us have ever seen. He claimed that he was impressed with the member for Mississauga—Brampton South's “commitment to public service". Well, his caucus was not impressed.
Now we have the return of that famous source, Liberal MPs speaking on condition of anonymity. One Liberal MP said, “The larger population just got another message saying the Liberals are no different than the Conservatives”. Another said that the leader of the Liberal Party just made the Prime Minister look principled.
What did the Liberal leader get in return for all this? Why none other than new Liberal strategist Dimitri Soudas. This Liberal leader once said, “ when you start to compromise your principles, you’re through”. Indeed, without principles, what kind of leader is a person? Well, we just found out.
Fortunately, Canadians can count on the NDP leader for principled leadership, leadership that fights for the middle-class families of Canada.
Sat, 2016-11-19 10:51
#76
From NDP MP Charlie Angus
Floor-crossers betray the voters
The first lesson that I learned in politics is that the party will get you elected and then from this point on, the one thing that you have to offer voters is your integrity. The minute you forget that folks back home are the ones who worked hard and volunteered to get you elected, you have no business being in politics.
There are days when it is harder than others to reassure the people that politics should be about public service and not self-service. If Parliament had the guts to deal with the issue of floor crossers it just might become easier to convince the public that their vote counts.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/02/11/floor-crossers-bet...
Sat, 2016-11-19 12:37
#77
There's no official policy barring accepting floor crossers in the NDP (either federal or provincial) that I'm aware of. It appears there's an attitude of greater reluctance toward it in the east than in the west. Anyway, the general coverage of this story in the press seemed positive. For instance, Toronto's Metro News had a brief blurb on it that focussed on Jansen leaving due to feeling that the PCs were being taken over by extremist elements, resulting in a climate of bullying and intolerance, and feeling the Alberta NDP were a better fit. There certainly was no criticism of the Alberta NDP. Calgary's Metro had more detail, but the story focus was the same. There's been further focus on increased bullying being a factor prompting the move (link) and also stories on the seemingly high level of misogyny that women politicians struggle against in Alberta (and elsewhere too) (1, 2).
The best traditions of the Peter Lougheed legacy in Alberta politics, traditions that I have for a very long time believed in, are being pursued by Premier Notley.
Sat, 2016-11-19 13:22
#78
There's no official policy barring accepting floor crossers in the NDP (either federal or provincial) that I'm aware of.
There have been many Private Members Bill introduced by the NDP to force floor crossers to run in a by-election
Sat, 2016-11-19 13:32
#79
Federally, I assume. I doubt that's ever been the case by the Alberta NDP. As I mentioned, it seems to be more an opinion from the east then from the west. I'm from the east and I share that opinion. That said, I don't see what happened in Alberta as anything negative on the NDP there. Negative on the Progressive Conservatives, yes, but not on the Alberta NDP.
Sat, 2016-11-19 13:37
#80
You are so right. This is going to be THE issue for the 2019 federal election. Forget the economy, global warming, or inequality the issue people will vote will be Jansen's floor crossing.Second - I guess you just don't understand that they are two different parties. If the BC Liberals do some outrageous thing as they do on a weekly basis it would be absurd to open a thread in the Canada section just because someone might try to score political points by tarring the federal Liberals with it.
Rachel Notley campaigned for Tom Mulcair and attended the NDP convention. Christy Clark DID NOT campaign for Trudeau or attend the Liberal convention. Because the BC Libs & Fed Libs are TWO different parties, But the Fed & Prov AB NDP parties are linked.
It's not as if trivial issues ever come up on the campaign trail that distract from everything else that's going on. Remember when Stephen Harper tried to make the niqab an issue during the federal campaign but everyone ignored it because there were much more serious issues at stake?
That was a federal issue under federal jurisdiction.
Sat, 2016-11-19 13:44
#81
Before jumping to conclusions people should should not make the assumption that the last chapter has been written on this. For example Jansen's allegations are being investigated by the party. Maybe there will be a fair investigation and maybe there won't be. A damning report will obviously put the floor crossing in another light. Another factor is if Kenny wins ( as seems very likely now) and other party members leave as a result. This will also put this in another light. And finally the provincial election will have ocurred before the federal one. Whatever the result it willclose the book on this. But in any case to put this as a potential federal issue is beyond absurd.
Sat, 2016-11-19 15:25
#82
bagkitty
Being a wee bit familiar with AB politics, I would recommend paying signficantly more attention to mark_alfred's comments where he has pointed out that the level of concern over this floor crossing is revealing a very strong geographical bias. Being somewhat less diplomatic than m_a, I would suggest that the eastern pearl clutching and preoccupation over "principle" reveals a pretty profound lack of insight into the history of Alberta politics in general, and in the culture of the Progressive Conservative dynasty in particular.
Ms. Jensen's decision to leave the good ship PC was hardly unique (even though her decision to move to slightly more orange pastures may be a first - other defections from the PC caucus have, I must admit, generally been to the provincial Liberals - often with eyes firmly fixed on the leadership opportunities [Betkowski/MacBeth and Sherman come to mind]). What it shares with the other defections in AB politics is that it has taken place at a rather high level - potential leaders or high profile cabinet ministers changing parties over deep disagreements with party direction and culture, rather than disgruntled back benchers seeking slightly better lighting on stage. In most cases here, the decision to "jump ship" is rather clearly marked by the ship being jumped from heading off on a course quite different from that the jumper originally signed on for.
Although it is practically taboo for the MSM monoculture here in AB to even raise the question, perhaps the good ship PC is the one who is making the dramatic change of course, not the passenger who decided she no longer felt welcome on the voyage.
Sat, 2016-11-19 16:06
#83
Okay, but what does that have to do with running in a by-election?
I don't think the concern is that she left the PCs.
Sat, 2016-11-19 16:22
#84
i already stated the by-election would be a waste of time, energy, and resources better spent elsewhere.
i guess the easterners think they should be able to dictate all the shots and measure what is principled or not.
Sat, 2016-11-19 16:34
#85
bagkitty
The position that there should be a resignation and byelection when an elected member seeks to cross the floor is interesting, in principle. The Wildrose position that elected members should, at least potentially, be "recallable" by their constituents is interesting, in principle. Since neither are actually in force, I am tempted to continue to refer to strident calls as to how Jensen should act as pearl clutching...
Sat, 2016-11-19 17:33
#86
i guess the easterners think they should be able to dictate all the shots and measure what is principled or not.
I'm happy to go with Rachel Notley's opinion on what's principled or not.
Which of her two opinions should I go with, though?
Sat, 2016-11-19 18:33
#87
2 different things. Danille was the leader of a party not a mla. do you not see the distinction?
Sat, 2016-11-19 18:52
#88
Danielle Smith WASN'T an MLA?
Sat, 2016-11-19 20:04
#89
oh for gawds sake magoo sometimes you're just too much.
she was mla who was also an elected leader.
she walked across as leader of a party.
Sat, 2016-11-19 20:07
#90
Ah.
Wasn't she just one of nine? Forgive the obvious Borg joke.
Sat, 2016-11-19 20:42
#91
(Smith) walked across as leader of a party.
She resigned the leadership before joining the Conservative caucus, so not quite.
I'm surprised nobody has brought up BC's former Leader of the Opposition Gordon Wilson, who not only deserted his party of the day (Progressive Democratic Alliance) to join the NDP caucus, but was rewarded with a cabinet post by Premier Glen Clark. Top that one.
Sat, 2016-11-19 20:47
#92
Former Alberta NDP leader Brian Mason on the floor crossing of Kerry Towle
He called it the "greatest act of personal betrayal" he’s seen in 25 years of political life.
There's no official policy barring accepting floor crossers in the NDP (either federal or provincial) that I'm aware of.
Manitoba (which is in the West) has BANNED Floor Crossing
From wiki
In April 2006, the premier of Manitoba Gary Doer of the New Democratic Party of Manitoba, proposed a ban on crossing the floor of the Manitoba legislature in response to "the concern some voters have expressed over the high-profile defections of three federal MPs from their parties in just over two years." The resulting legislation, which amended the provincial Legislative Assembly Act, mandated that Members of the Legislature who quit their political party to serve out the remainder of their term as independents.
Sat, 2016-11-19 21:12
#93
In 1998 Liberal Buckley Belanger wanted to cross the floor to the Governing NDP in Saskatchewan. The Saskatchewan NDP said sure come on over. As long as you resign and run in a by-election as an NDPer. Belanger did and he won under an NDP banner.
So if Buckley Belanger can resign and run in a by-election (on a point of principal) why can’t Sandra Jansen?
Sun, 2016-11-20 01:20
#94
i didn't know about Gordon Wilson i was a new mom struggling then with no time for politics.
if you're mla you're still an mla doing constituent work period. no matter the banner.
sounds like some disgruntled Liberals trying to stir a pot 'cause she didn't go to them...lololol
not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either. it's only an issue in ON i guess lolol
Sun, 2016-11-20 04:51
#95
bagkitty
[...]
not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either. it's only an issue in ON i guess lolol
Not entirely surprising. Consider that the four largest circulation dailies in the province are now being produced out of what is essentially a single office... journalism in Alberta is increasingly like prairie agriculature... monoculture.
Sun, 2016-11-20 09:12
#96
not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either.
Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Sun calls Sandra Jansen a turncoat
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/11/17/sandra-jansens-floor-crossing-to-n...
Sun, 2016-11-20 11:45
#97
lol, he of the Alberta Report, joining forces with Ezra on how the AB NDP was trying to muzzle journalists fame....
imv, he's not even thin gruel on the credibility scale.....and if you want to talk "principles" as being your motivator then you just made it impossible to stand there "on principle".....lol
Sun, 2016-11-20 12:01
#98
not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either.
Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Sun calls Sandra Jansen a turncoat
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/11/17/sandra-jansens-floor-crossing-to-n...
Oh my goodness. Someone here is quoting this right wing climate change denier as - what- a source of wisdom, someone we should listen too? The decline of Babble continues.
Sun, 2016-11-20 13:01
#99
First you are saying
not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either. it's only an issue in ON i guess lolol
Then you are saying
lol, he of the Alberta Report, joining forces with Ezra on how the AB NDP was trying to muzzle journalists fame....
imv, he's not even thin gruel on the credibility scale.....and if you want to talk "principles" as being your motivator then you just made it impossible to stand there "on principle".....lol
So which is it?
Sun, 2016-11-20 13:27
#100
Oh my goodness. Someone here is quoting this right wing climate change denier as - what- a source of wisdom, someone we should listen too? The decline of Babble continues.not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either.Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Sun calls Sandra Jansen a turncoat
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/11/17/sandra-jansens-floor-crossing-to-n...
supposed to evidence of AB media speaking negatively about Jansen joining the AB NDP after be harassed out of her party....lol
guess some here think he and Ezra are "media".
Sun, 2016-11-20 13:50
#101
I'm not a fan of the Edmonton Sun or The Rebel. But what you are implying is that Sun Media is not journalism or media. But it is just propaganda.
Is that correct in how I'm interperting your viewpoint?
Because if it is then you are siding AGAINST PEN Canada, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression and the Canadian Association of Journalists.