War in Syria 3

Journalists Square off over Credibility of Syrian Coverage

By Ian Greenhalgh on December 20, 2016

Canadian freelance journalist Eva Bartlett recently made headlines after blasting mainstream news agencies for relying on questionable and unnamed sources.

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Telesur
Journalists Square off over Credibility of Syrian Coverage

NDPP wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

 

Thanks for this important posting ikosmos.

 

Yes, if you don't actually write the word "fuck" the metaphor is perfectly fine. Nobody will get it at all.

 

 

"Atlanticists are appalled that Moscow, Ankara and Tehran are now fully engaged in designing a post-Battle of Aleppo Syrian future, to the graphic exclusion of the NATO-GCC combo. It's under this context that the recent alleged capture of a bunch of NATO-GCC operatives - deployed under the US-led-from-behind 'coalition' by Syrian special forces in Aleppo must be interpreted...."

Who Profits From Turkey's 'Sarajevo Moment'  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://rt.com/op-edge/370997-turkey-ambassador-russian-assassination-syria

 

Russia, Turkey and Iran Ready To Be Guarantors in Resolving Syrian Crisis - Russian Defense Minister

http://rt.com/news/370959-russia-turkey-iran-resolving-syria

"A text of the Moscow declaration on immediate steps in resolving the Syrian crisis is being prepared. Moscow, Ankara and Tehran are ready to be guarantors of its implementation, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said."

I'd like to see the back of him, personally. He posts fake news, is insulting, does nothing but shit-disturb. Adds nothing to the tone or content of the board that isn't objectionable.

Timebandit wrote:

I'd like to see the back of him ... does nothing but shit-disturb.

I'm flattered by your inadvertent compliment. This is what babble is about, has always been about, and, God-willing, will always be about.

.........................................................................

That story about the US "Coalition" mercenaries still has plenty of traction. The short version is that the Syrian Arab Republic may very well be able to extract concessions from the US and its satellite regimes (like Canada) over their apprehended mercenaries.

And, as much as Summary Execution might be considered more appropriate punishment when a country is being attacked for years on end by said mercenaries, we see already the "excessive" generosity shown by the Assad regime, even now, towards the captured terrorists in Aleppo. It takes great Mandela-like courage to see the way forward by Syria's leadership. What is best for the Syrian people - that's what matters; that they remain sovereign. If trading the "advisors" for something that improves the lives of Syrians, then who are we to judge what is best here? In so doing, they are also a shining beacon and a great counter-example to those who say that no one can resist the Empire, or that all those who oppose the Emperor (Obama) die, and so on. 

The Empire has failed, at least for the nonce, to subjugate the Syrian people and dismember their country. The whole world should celebrate with them, and, as well, honour those who helped: Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, China to some degree, and so on.

It is to Canada's ugly disgrace that our regime applies sanctions to a country under years of siege by terrorists, that our international "bark" echoes that of the Master in Washington, that independent Canadian thought is silenced, that even in refugee policy we seem to be doing more of a brain drain of Syria's middle class than actually helping Syria in the long term, etc., etc..

Shame on Canada.

Some details about the mercenaries ...

At Least 14 US Coalition Military Officers Captured by Syrian Special Forces in East Aleppo Bunker

1.

Quote:

This story was quietly leaked by Voltaire.net, who announced, “The Security Council is sitting in private on Friday, December 16, 2016, at 17:00 GMT, while NATO officers were arrested this morning by the Syrian Special Forces in a bunker in East Aleppo.”

The UNSC members meet and do not always make public what they discuss. This is common even.

2.

Quote:

Over the past 24 hours, some 8079 terrorists and members of their families were evacuated via busses and ambulances from the neighborhoods of Salah-Eddin, al-Ansari, al-Mashhad and al-Zibdiyeh to the southwest countryside of Aleppo city”

If true, this latest news would also mean that both the Syrian and Russian governments would have additional leverage going forward in any bilateral negotiations with the US-led Coalition.

If, however, this story is kept under wraps by NATO member governments and summarily blacked out by the US and European media outlets, then it might indicate that a deal has been struck, albeit behind the scenes, for the return of captured NATO operatives in exchange for other concessions.

So we may hear nothing and yet there can still be progress on this issue. Those who say that unless there is noisy and continuous blather from the respective governments about this issue, etc., are being highly misleading here.

Furthermore ...

Quote:

For anyone who has been paying close attention to the Syrian Conflict, seeing NATO special forces or “contractors” working with ‘rebel’ or terrorist fighters inside of Syria is nothing unusual. Numerous reports have been filed of British soldiers assigned to fighting groups to help with training, strategy and logistics. In June 2016, The Telegraph admitted that British special forces were helping one rebel group, “… with logistics, like building defences to make the bunkers safe,” said one ‘rebel’ fighter. Other reports, including the LA Times which detailed CIA operations used to arm militants, including Al Nusra Front (al Qaeda in Syria) who were the terrorist force in charge in East Aleppo. Other revelations of US covert involvement include The New York Times, and also information on US (NATO by another name only) covert operations provided to the Wall Street Journal. South Front also notes: “Earlier in December, SF already noted that the US despearate attempts to push a “diplomatic solution” in Aleppo could indicate that the Obama administration stalling for time to extricate US mercenaries and special service members from the Aleppo pocket:”

In fact, the article notes that horse-trading of prisoners goes on in other NATO-sponsored conflicts, i.e., Ukraine ...

Quote:

21WIRE can also point out that throughout fighting in the Donbass in eastern Ukraine, during the period of May 2014 to the present, numerous incidents have been reported where NATO military soldiers and operatives have been both spotted, and captured by rebel forces, and in most cases these reports have been muted, more than likely because of ‘horse trading’ taking place as an extension of wider diplomacy.

I find your constant attack of people's posts for posting "fake news" to be distracting and condescending. We can all read and analyse and frankly I read the links I want to. I would hate to have you censuring the links available at this site. We would only be reading propaganda talking points from one side not multiple propaganda sources. 

If we are banning people for posting thread upon thread of "fake news" then I think you need to include North Report. Mind you he only insults NDP'ers not other babblers who are anti-Russian but he sure does post a lot of fake news. 

If you were a moderator I am sure you would ban a lot of people including me. Then you could have a nice little party with people who share all your views because of course your views are the ones that count.

 

Egyptian Police Arrest Five People Using Children to Stage Fake Footage (and vid)

http://independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/aleppo-fake-footage-chil...

"Five people in Port Said allegedly making fake videos purporting to show the wreckage of air-strikes in the Syrian city of Aleppo have been arrested."

MegB wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

Gotcha Mother*uckers!

 

 

 

I'm getting really tired of the complaints against you. Babblers, is there an outcome you'd like to see with ikosmos, or are you content to settle this yourselves within the context of the thread.

Just a plea, Meg, to leave all this alone. It's all legitimate debate, even if some don't frame it very cleverly. If news is fake, which it arguably all is, it should be exposed - not shut down. I'm actually wondering whether our system of anonymous complaints shouldn't be re-thought.

I complained about that one, Unionist. Do you have a problem with that?

No one is trying to suspend or kick anyone out of here for legitimate debate (even though I have seen you make the argument that certain people and their arguments do not belong here - guess that makes them "illegitimate"). You were wrong then, and I think you are wrong here.

And as I said in the moderation thread, we should remember who is actually calling for moderation based on politics.

It isn't even him spamming this board that has gotten us here. Or the fake stories. NDPP is just as active, and uses many of the same sources. But he isn't a jerk about it, doesn't brag about beating up other posters and dare them to try and hurt him. Doesn't cheer people being bombed, doesn't constantly undermine everyone who doesn't agree with him. Doesn't undermine this board as a whole.

Last time someone got canned for that kind of behaviour all of us recognized it for what it was. No one tried to claim it was about politics. ikosmos is considerably less reckless when it comes to playing it close to the line, but he still uses smears, and dishonest argument, which in a lot of cases is more designed to disrupt than actually discuss issues.

I have had several of you get in my face at least as much if not more than him. There is a big difference because while I strongly disagree with you on some issues, I think you, k, Sean, and others honestly care about the existence of this board, and aren't just using it as a tool.

And frankly, as much as I am annoyed by his spamming, and his reprinting of what are essentially government press releases, I got over that a couple of years ago, and I put up with it. And if he dialed back on the attacks I would continue to put up with it. But stuff like what he just posted are a good example of how he regards this place and the people here.

 

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I find your constant attack of people's posts for posting "fake news" to be distracting and condescending. We can all read and analyse and frankly I read the links I want to. I would hate to have you censuring the links available at this site. We would only be reading propaganda talking points from one side not multiple propaganda sources. 

If we are banning people for posting thread upon thread of "fake news" then I think you need to include North Report. Mind you he only insults NDP'ers not other babblers who are anti-Russian but he sure does post a lot of fake news. 

If you were a moderator I am sure you would ban a lot of people including me. Then you could have a nice little party with people who share all your views because of course your views are the ones that count.

 

Your prognostication would be incorrect. You don't generally go out of your way to provoke, attack and post demonstrably untrue things, so I can't imagine why you'd make that assumption. I would also like to point out that in 15 years of participating on this board, I've never objected to the presence of people I disagree with. I appreciate debate. I don't appreciate abuse or false information. in my professional life, I'm always looking at the other side of the argument and unlike some on this board, if the argument is compelling enough, I've been known to change my mind. I have no problem with other points of view, I have a problem with playing fast and loose with the truth. So I think your assessment is a little unfair.

Smith:   Fair enough, I don't want to get into (more) meta discussion of the Best Way to Argue on the Internet (hint: more caps).   I mainly wanted to get my 2 cents in that I do find these threads useful and not objectionable, as Meg had asked about it.  

But I do want to reiterate that what is baiting, what is showing disregard for someone, and what is trolling are highly personal judgements, subjective.   Others may see it differently.   You seem to be saying you have seen a consistent pattern of behaviour over time.   I have also been reading babble a long time, and I respectfully disagree in this case.  I view some of the heat here coming from genuine exasperation on ikosmos' and others that they are being misinterpreted and personally attacked for sharing opinions that I think many people would find normal/regular and to be expected on a progressive message board.  

I think most people here are on the same page with regards to the basic moral principles involved:   support of national sovereignty, opposition of imperial projects, anti-war, anti-violence, pro-self determination.

No one on this thread is proposing a tangible action that could materially affect events in Syria now, so we are not engaged in an urgent moral discussion on the best way forward.   We are just trading opinions (and others are offering links and 3rd party analysis, which I am grateful for).   There are clearly differences in our understanding and interpretation of the history and context of the current Syrian conflict (and the role in the world of the American empire more generally).   But those differences can be overcome through discussion.   I'm a glass half full guy here.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I complained about that one, Unionist. Do you have a problem with that?

No one is trying to suspend or kick anyone out of here for legitimate debate (even though I have seen you make the argument that certain people and their arguments do not belong here - guess that makes them "illegitimate"). You were wrong then, and I think you are wrong here.

And as I said in the moderation thread, we should remember who is actually calling for moderation based on politics.

It isn't even him spamming this board that has gotten us here. Or the fake stories. NDPP is just as active, and uses many of the same sources. But he isn't a jerk about it, doesn't brag about beating up other posters and dare them to try and hurt him. Doesn't cheer people being bombed, doesn't constantly undermine everyone who doesn't agree with him. Doesn't undermine this board as a whole.

Last time someone got canned for that kind of behaviour all of us recognized it for what it was. No one tried to claim it was about politics. ikosmos is considerably less reckless when it comes to playing it close to the line, but he still uses smears, and dishonest argument, which in a lot of cases is more designed to disrupt than actually discuss issues.

I have had several of you get in my face at least as much if not more than him. There is a big difference because while I strongly disagree with you on some issues, I think you, k, Sean, and others honestly care about the existence of this board, and aren't just using it as a tool.

And frankly, as much as I am annoyed by his spamming, and his reprinting of what are essentially government press releases, I got over that a couple of years ago, and I put up with it. And if he dialed back on the attacks I would continue to put up with it. But stuff like what he just posted are a good example of how he regards this place and the people here.

Which story is a problem, exactly? Surely it is not the link titled "Gotcha, motherfuckers?" I would have assumed it would be obvious that that refers to the story, not this board.

Really, all this over that word?

If I tell you to get over yourself, is that violating the TOS here?

What is the legitimate way to express contempt at tone-policing and language policing efforts here?

GRAPHIC: "Never forget this 12 year old Palestinian boy. Never forget the face of the beast who did this to him. He is a 'moderate' Syrian 'rebel'. Paid for armed by and supported by your government.

And a surprising number of liberals."

http://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/809355013046882304

Kropotkin quoted: "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Dec. 20 that Russia, Iran and Turkey were ready to act as guarantors in a peace deal between the Syrian government and the opposition."

It will be "interesting" to see how this plays out with the Kurds, all things considered. 

sherpa-finn wrote:

Kropotkin quoted: "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Dec. 20 that Russia, Iran and Turkey were ready to act as guarantors in a peace deal between the Syrian government and the opposition."

It will be "interesting" to see how this plays out with the Kurds, all things considered.

The Russians aim to do what the US regime and its "coalition" failed to do; separate legitimate opposition elements from the head-chopping Takfiri extremists. The message for the latter is simple; leave or die.

The Kurds, however, are a different story. There are Kurds and there are Kurds. Some have been "working closely" with troops from the US regime. Some are viewed as terrorists by, e.g., the Turkish government. Still others are allies of the Syrian Arab Republic.

Plan "B" for the US, of course, - after the terribly, "disheartening" defeat of their terrorist proxies in Aleppo has put the kibosh on a incipient caliphate in Syria - is a dismemberment of Syria through a fake federation in which their Kurdish "allies" can form a rump state ... and promptly call for US "intervention". You know. Like the kind of intervention others have cynically tried to characterize Russia's disinterested help to Syria as.

It is particularly heartening to see Iran playing a positive role in International Affairs here. I hope it continues. The leadership of the Israeli regime must be jumping up and down in fits of apoplectic rage. I really "feel" for them.

Several of the claims she made - about "recycling" children, and the hospital bombing, have been debunked.

Quote:

Ms Bartlett said: “Their video footage actually contains children that have been recycled in different reports; so you can find a girl named Aya who turns up in a report in say August, and she turns up in the next month in two different locations.”

A clip from the press conference has been viewed more than 3 million times on In The NOW, a Facebook page run by Russia Today but not branded as such.

We’ve tried to contact Ms Bartlett without success, so it’s not 100 per cent clear what she means by this, but our best guess is that she is referring to a claim involving a girl called Aya which has been circulated widely on the internet:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-eva-bartletts-claims-a...

http://www.snopes.com/syrian-war-victims-are-being-recycled-and-al-quds-...

 

 

 

"Recycling"?

http://twitter.com/OliveVomBaum/status/810752641122926593

 

CNN: Carla Ortiz & Her Experience in Aleppo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y4xtstRIqwE

 

MT, Rania Khalek on Syria

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7OYJREEDk

Ambassador Ja’afari then announced that not only were the operatives still in East Aleppo but that he would read their names and their nationalities for the world to hear. He was clear that the intelligence operatives were working with the terrorist groups and attempting to exit East Aleppo. The list is as follows:

• Mu’tazz Oghlikaan-Oghlu (Turkish)
• David Scott Winner (American)
• David Shlomo Aram (Israeli)
• Muhammad Shaykh Al-Islaami Al-Tameemi (Qatari)
• Muhammad Ahmad Al-Sibyaan (Saudi Arabian)
• ‘Abdul-Mun’im Fahd Al-Hurayj (Saudi)
• Ahmad bin Nawfal Al-Durayj (Saudi)
• Muhammad Hassan Al-Subay’iy (Saudi)
• Qaasim Sa’ad Al-Shammari (Saudi intelligence agent)
• Ayman Qaasim Al-Tha’aalibi (Saudi intelligence agent)
• Ahmad Al-Tayaraawi (Jordanian intelligence agent)
• Muhammad Al-Shaafi’iy Al-Idreesi (Moroccan intelligence agent)

“This is why you saw this hysterical move in this council for the last three days,” Ja’afari said. “Because the main purpose is how to rescue these terrorists, foreigners, intelligence officers, from the same countries who pushed for the adoption of the resolution, out of Aleppo.”

He then stated that the intentions of the Syrian government were to arrest these individuals and show them to the world.

Ziad Fadel of Syrian Perspective writes that Ja’afari has only named the tip of the iceberg and that his sources say there are 10 more Americans, 2 British, French, and Moroccan intelligence agents still in East Aleppo. Syper’s information was proven correct regarding the intelligence agents named by Ja’afari.

It seems that the facts are starting to be reported in the US MSM as well as all the sites that people on this site like to call fake news. 

https://www.facebook.com/BenSwannRealityCheck/videos/1305885976143016/

No, the actions of one party or another doesn't change the onus of proof, or change what is in a photograph, or prove anything at all. Though even if it did, it isn't an American hospital, so are we lumping everyone who objects to it being bombed in the "American" camp?

Though again, if we are weighing evidence, I think accounts from the ground count a bit more than a satellite photo that apparently shows the building still standing (especially since MSF said they were going to reopen it).

And Boze, in both the Channel 4 article and the Snopes page it was pointed out that they asked her for clarification. She did not respond.

 

So 6079 the real question is do you think the White Helmets are legitimate or just propaganda and do you think all the social media last week purporting to be from East Aleppo and talking about genocide were real or just propaganda?

Do you believe that many of the 800,000 people in West Aleppo were happy with the defeat of the terrorists and the liberation of East Aleppo? 

I think we have access to the same sources and my conclusion is that the White Helmets are mostly for show. The screams of genocide were fucking hilarious despite being so disingenuous.  Of course as soon as access to East Aleppo was gained by the liberating government forces the truth has come out.

I think most of the people of Syria will be genuinely happy when their government defeats the Western backed terrorists.

Kropotkin asked: do you think all the social media last week purporting to be from East Aleppo and talking about genocide were real or just propaganda?

I suspect that if any of us as non-combatant civilians were on the receiving end of the sustained bombing and artillery campaign that the poor citizens of Aleppo have lived through over the past couple of years, the use of the word "genocide" might well creep into our tweets and posts. Personally I would not blame or denigrate anyone on the ground for that usage, even if some folks sitting comfortably in their armchairs an ocean or more away conclude "Collateral damage yes, - but genocide no. That is simply inappropriate and scare mongering use of a legally defined term."

 

Of course, just a couple of years back in the same region, there was a very similar application of blunt, brutal military power, raining down death and destruction upon a largely civilian population, this time in Gaza.  I am not sure how local social media responded at the time, but again, I would not blame anyone on the ground for shouting out "GENOCIDE!" In fact, as I recall many Babblers did just that.   

 

More 'fodder' from Smith's youtube site above. Hilarious.

Pres Obama Offers Hilarious Reasons For Why We're in Syria

https://youtu.be/jiqwqP_iXsc

"So what about the blood and atrocities on your hands?"

More seriously, just as they were duped into cheerleading 'humanitarian interventions' and regime change operations  in Libya or Ukraine, too many Canadian progressives appear to have again drunken deep of the toxic  MSM purple cool-aid on Syria, Al Qaeda, White Helmets and all. No wonder things are the way they are here. Oh well, at least their shameful support for these awful international crimes and maligning of courageous truth-tellers like Eva Bartlett are recorded for posterity. Notice also their significant silence on the horrors of the US-backed operation in Mosul or Canadian participation.

Syria, Russia and American Desperation  -  by Margaret Kimberley

http://blackagendareport.com/regime_change_forces_desperate

"Now that the Syrians are retaking the city with the help of their Russian and Hezbollah allies, there is a steady stream of news about Aleppo. All of it meant to pull at the heart strings of uninformed people as the human rights industrial complex goes about its dirty work.

Human Rights Watch and other groups who work to promote US foreign policy speak endlessly about war crimes. They didn't say much when America's allies were terrorizing Syrians but now they suddenly point fingers and always at the people who run afoul of regime change plans.

Blaming Russia kills several birds with one stone. It continues the propaganda war against a country that will not knuckle under and accept American hegemony. The hyper-Russophobia was also an attempt to make the unpalatable and incompetent Hillary Clinton more appealing. And its continuation is being used by Democrats and Republicans to stop the incoming president from having any chance to improve relations with that country or curtail the regime change doctrine.

The war party never sleeps." 

Nor its Canadian 'progressive' supporters.