Waffen-SS Galician Division still Revered by Canada’s Ukrainian Right

82 posts / 0 new

Fri, 2016-12-30 00:02

6079_Smith_W

You probably know Richard, that at the time the CJC filed an affadavit regarding 94 suspects, not "many thousands". Half of those identified did not have full names, there were no witnesses. No indication even that many of them were still alive, or among those who surrendered to the allies.

I presume you have read the Dechesnes Commission report regarding that, and regarding the 31 Ukrainian officers who came to Canada identified by the Wiesenthal Centre, and against whom there was also no evidence.

Should Canada have done a better job of screening those soldiers? Probably. But then so should the Soviet and British military who pre-screened all of them and found no evidence either that they fought against western Allies and no evidence that any committed war crimes.

Another reason mentioned in the report why Canada approved immigration was that had they delayed until the Italian Treaty came into force the Soviets would have likely demanded they all be extradited.

So regardless of what side J.S. and I would have been on, it really has no bearing on what you and I were talking about, which is that it is perfectly valid to honour soldiers who did not take part in those atrocities.

Fri, 2016-12-30 09:05

#53

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Thousands of Ukrainian Waffen SS soldiers were welcomed into Canada. While it is known that various of their brigades and units took active roles in some of the war's worst human rights atrocities, massacring hundreds of thousands of Jews, Poles, Soviet civilians and communist resistance fighters, it must have been difficult -- if not nearly impossible -- for the CJC, Ukrainian leftists or anyone to collect the evidence necessary to prove exactly which Waffen SS soldiers were guilty. (Most of the witnesses to the mass murders were dead and I don't suppose the CJC or Cdn communists had access to the Waffen SS files.)

We do know however that all of the Waffen SS soldiers were volunteers. They were not forced to join and most of the volunteers were rejected by the Nazis authorities. These soldiers wanted to join this particular military formation and they knew they would be funded, armed, trained and led by German Nazis. They all literally took a vow to fight to the death for Hitler and the Nazi cause. However we do not know, as you rightly point out, exactly which of these volunteers actually succeeded in their mission to kill Jews and Reds. Some -- how many we don't know -- may have failed miserably in their stated goal. For that I am thankful. The recruitment propaganda for the Ukrainian Waffen SS -- from the highest authorities in the church and state alike -- very clearly stated that Jews and Reds were the main enemies that were to be targeted. We know at least what they were trying to do, and overall, we know that the Waffen SS Galicia did a tremendous job wiping out vast numbers of people. But exactly which soldiers did what in this program of widescale extermination and ethnic/political cleaning, we really don't know.

Which side JS and the CCF were on, in the matter of how the Liberal government allowed thousands of virtually unscreened Waffen SS Galicia veterans into Canada, does have a bearing on this discussion because it is interesting to see how some progressive Canadians -- who have an extreme aversion to communism -- may turn a blind eye to Nazi collaborators and agree with the government that they should receive a "get out of jail free" card just because they were in part motivated by their hatred of the Soviets.

Fri, 2016-12-30 09:54

#54

6079_Smith_W

Ah right, because the rest of them were all just wannabee war criminals, so it really doesn't matter if they committed crimes or not.

I have sung the national anthem once or twice. Doesn't make me a believer in god, despite the words.

Anyway these soldiers were screened several times, including by the Soviets. I just pointed out that was in the Dechesne Report. So if some were missed it wasn't simply because of Canadians' alleged pathological hatred of all things Soviet and communist. Sure sounds like we're bad bad people the way you tell it though.

But again, I have to thank you because while I have known for years the propaganda on this was not the full truth, I hadn't taken the time to sort the lies and spin from what actually happened.

Mon, 2017-01-02 09:11

#55

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Anyway these soldiers were screened several times, including by the Soviets.

What's your source on the Waffen SS Galicia vets being "screened several times, including by the Soviets" before they were made Canadian citizens?

My understanding is that the thousands of these troops who made it to Canada were at first held captive in a British POW camp in Italy and were then moved to a POW camp in Britain before the Liberals welcomed them here.

Mon, 2017-01-02 09:33

#56

6079_Smith_W

I just told you, Richard.

Mon, 2017-01-02 14:21

#57

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

You say the Dechenes Commission Report says that the Soviet's were allowed to screen the Waffen SS veterans before they came to Canada?

Here is the report:
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/bcp-pco/CP32-52-19...

Could you find where the reference says that?

Even the British did not screen the Waffen SS that came to Canada, but you say the Soviets did?

Mon, 2017-01-02 16:59

#58

6079_Smith_W

It isn't in the pdf you posted. The entire report is over 900 pages long, and yours, which I suspect is just the main report, has only 240 of them. The relevant section starts on page 243 (you can see it in the table of contents on page 9 of your document).

Anyway, on page 252 it says:

Quote:

The British Foreign Office answered on 4 September 1950, and its answer was relayed to Canada in a dispatch of the following day. In the main it stated:17

While in Italy these men were screened by Soviet and British missions and neither then nor subsequently has any evidence been brought to light which would suggest that any of them fought against the Western Allies or engaged in crimes against humanity. Their behaviour since they came to this country has been good and they have never indicated in any way that they are infected with any trace of Nazi ideology.

(...)

From the reports of the special mission set up by the War Office to Screen these men, it seems clear that they volunteered to fight against the Red Army from nationalistic motives which were given greater impetus by the behaviour of the Soviet authorities during their earlier occupation of the Western Ukraine after the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Although Communist propaganda has constantly attempted to depict these, like so many other refugees, as "quislings" and "war criminals" it is interesting to note that no specific charges of war crimes have been made by the Soviet or any other Government against any member of this group.

...

It is interesting to note that the Division had already been screened by a Soviet Mission in August 1945. The British Commission reported in that connection:21

9. The only effect, which the Soviet Mission's visit appears to have had on the Ukrainians, was to convince any waverers there might have been never to return to the Soviet Union, and to cause a great deal of probably justified anxiety to those who still had relatives there. We must, I think, accept as a definite fact, that all those Ukrainians now in Camp 374 who were screened by the Soviet Mission — that is to say the great majority — are now regarded by the Soviet Government as Soviet citizens, and that having tailed to secure their voluntary repatriation the Soviet Government will demand their forcible repatriation as War Criminals when the Italian Treaty comes into force.

From a copy of that part of the report at the galica battation's site:

http://galiciadivision.org.ua/lib/veryha-eng/d02.html

If you aren't familiar with this part of the report I'd recommend reading it in its entirety, as there are a number of things in there relevant to your claims, including why this division was distinct from other WaffenSS units in that its members were not ethnic German, as was the norm.

It points out in the same document that the British screened them as well.

Mon, 2017-01-02 17:20

#59

NDPP

As there, so here. The same toxic tree still bears the same rotten fruit

Another Nazi Banderite March in Ukraine

https://youtu.be/Wve0MNjXpCo

Mon, 2017-01-02 17:24

#60

6079_Smith_W

Now that looks a bit more like neo-Nazis. A whole 1000 of them, you say.

Tue, 2017-01-03 13:55

#61

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

A news report in 1997 said that the supposed "screening" of Waffen SS Galicia vets, by the British, never actually took place.

The article says: "But according to recently released British documents and interviews with officials who conducted the investigations, they were not screened ...."

This despite the fact that the British and Cdn governments had previously claimed (as reported for example by the Dechenes Commission) that they had done screening. It seems that the British and Cdn gov'ts might not have been terribly honest about their supposed "screening" of the Waffen SS vets that they were so eager to bring to Canada. Although they also said the Soviets had screened these veterans, I wonder if we can really have complete confidence in the accuracy of this government report, re: screening.

Much of what we believe relies on our faith or confidence in the sources. This is what confidence scams are all about. Whether the confidence scheme is purely financial, political or religious, all such cons rely on our confidence. They depend on us having trust in their honesty. Who do we believe? What vested interests do they have? If they have a record of lying, how much confidence can we have that they are always telling the truth, or that they are conveying the facts, whether they believe them or not, ie, they could be telling an untruth unwittingly because they trusted their sources.

I don't know what those documents were or what interviews were being refered to in the 1997 article, but I suppose some digging could find that out...

Here is a longer exerpt from that news item (by TOM TUGEND, "Canada admits letting in 2,000 Ukrainian SS troopers," Jewish Telegraphic Agency, February 7, 1997.)

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/5051/canada-admits-letting-in-2-000-ukrainian-ss-troopers/

".... the German public broadcasting network reported that 50,000 war criminals receive "victim pensions" from the German government. German sources say 1,882 are Canadian residents.

Almost all the suspected war criminals and collaborators have lived openly under their own names in Canada for 47 years.

The Wiesenthal Center's dean, Rabbi Marvin Hier, and its Canadian representative, Sol Littman, addressed a news conference Monday after meeting with Canadian Solicitor General Herb Gray, who is in charge of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Gray "seemed genuinely disturbed by the material we presented and promised to investigate the charges," Hier said.

Littman, who has been researching Nazis in Canada since 1980, said the 14th Volunteer Waffen-SS Grenadier Division, aka the Galicia Division, largely comprised Ukrainians who served with Nazi police battalions and death squads.

The surviving 9,000 division members surrendered to the British at war's end, and were taken to England.

In 1950, Britain appealed to Commonwealth countries to admit them. Canada agreed to take 2,000, after being assured that their backgrounds had been checked and that they were cleared of complicity in war crimes.

But according to recently released British documents and interviews with officials who conducted the investigations, they were not screened, partly because none of the interrogators spoke their language, Littman said.

The 2,000 settled in major Canadian cities."

Tue, 2017-01-03 15:01

#62

6079_Smith_W

Well Richard, the Soviet mission most certainly spoke their language, and according to the Deschene commission those interviews, and the British ones, had taken place while they were still in Italy. But if you find information to challenge that please let me know.

To raise the question of the "confidence in the sources" also applies to everything you have written. While I know you have the disadvantage of the burden of proof, I have not played that card, so perhaps it is best you not do that either, and keep it to formal challenges.

And again, none of this amounts to an accusation. But my point is that if there was lax screening, it was not just on the part of the Canadians, but also the British, and in particular the Soviets, who had no ulterior motive for turning a blind eye.

Tue, 2017-01-03 19:08

#63

Unionist

This is fascinating. A debate as to whether we should have admitted collaborators of Hitler into Canada, based on whether there was evidence against individuals or not. We should perhaps admit ISIS members unless we have videos of individuals slicing off heads. Sounds about right.

Is it possible that babble could limit whitewashing of actual collaborators of Adolf Hitler and members of organizations which committed mass murder based on race, religion, homophobia?

When it comes to members of the Waffen SS, I'm going to state my very clear view. You made not like it. And I don't particularly give a fuck:

Shoot first, and ask questions later.

Tue, 2017-01-03 22:19

#64

6079_Smith_W

To be honest, I really regret that we are hashing over technical points of a massacre that hits so close to home for you, Unionist. And you are entitled to your feelings.

I don't take any pleasure in defending people, some of whom were motivated by hatred. It is an uncomfortable and an unpopular position to take, and I likely wouldn't do it if it wasn't for them being accused en masse of something far far worse. And others who had nothing to do with the conflict being accused as well.

And that those making these accusations are only doing so to suit their own purposes, just as they suppressed this history, and their own complicity, when it suited their purposes.

In that, this is essentially a dishonest argument. And I will continue to call it for what it is. It is in no way a whitewashing of atrocities and crimes that were committed on all sides of that conflict.

I said this all back at #49. Aside from expressing my regrets about how it affects you (which I have said before) I really said it as well as I can back there.

Wed, 2017-01-04 10:06

#65

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Remember what happened just a few years before the Waffen SS Galicia vets were released from British POW camps and accepted by Cda because they were supposedly screened?

In 1940 the Brits asked Cda to take thousands of dangerous POWs from their camps. We did. The Brits told Cda these POWs were screened. Imagine Cda's surprise when these POWs arrived and thousands of them were actually JEWISH refugees (and a few hundred communists) who had fled for their lives from the Nazis in continental Europe to Britain. The Liberal Canadian govt had a "no Jews policy" and hated Reds too. Remember Cda Libs deployed a warship to sceen out Jews by the boatload that were trying to escape the horrors of Nazism? That was Cda's screening process. Face it. Half of the the Jewish POWs (ie refugees) who arrived in Cda in 1940 were sent back to Brtiain but the rest we had to (reluctantly) keep. The Brits had lied thru their teeth to Cdn authorities about how it had screened these supposedly dangerous POWs. So what did the Cdn govt do? They immediately put 2,300 Jews and the Commies in their midst behind barbed wire in eight POW camps in Quebec, Ontario and NB! Many were not released until late 1943! The captive commies in these Canadian camps were real trouble makers and were routinely elected to represent the prisoners. Many of these commie prisoners in Cdn POW camps led strikes and otherwise resisted their captivity in these Cdn prison camps. They were considered the enemy.

Read more of what I've written about this here, and see my sources:

From Csarist Pogroms to Canada’s WWII Internment Camps for Jews and Communists
http://coat.ncf.ca/P4C/68/68_39.htm

http://rabble.ca/babble/news-rest-us/capt-cda-russian-revolution-1905-07-to-cdas-internment-jews-reds-1940-43

So, Smith, when you tell me a Cdn govt report says that the Brits carefully screened the Nazis war vets and kept the bad Nazis out of Cda, please excuse me if I'm on the skeptical side. That narrative does not fit the pattern of history re Brit screening POWs. I'm just not drinking that koolaid, especially when it is reported in the 1990s (see my email from yesterday) that documents and interviews exposed the fact that the post war screening of Waffen SS Galicia vets never actually took place and that they had lied about it.

I brought up the matter of faith, trust, confidence because I equate this whole matter with con artists. Usually we think of confidence schemes as being small operations done for monetary gain where the mark is one or a few victims.

The same pattern of confidence scams however also occurs with huge political, religious and/or financial programs done by massive institutions which have gained the confidence, faith, trust of hundreds of millions or even billions of marks.

A key issue here is also that the people engaged in carrying out such monumental scams usually do not even know that they are engaged in a deception because they have themselves fallen for the lie which they are unwittingly using. Think Hitler's "big lie" and General Smedley Butler's famous book: "war is a racket."

I have little faith, confidence or trust in the Cdn or British govt's narrative re sceening Nazis before their entry into Cda.

You have that faith, trust and confidence.

That is the real difference between us.

Wed, 2017-01-04 12:08

#66

6079_Smith_W

Richard Sanders wrote:

So, Smith, when you tell me a Cdn govt report says that the Brits carefully screened the Nazis war vets and kept the bad Nazis out of Cda, please excuse me if I'm on the skeptical side.

Except I did not say that, Richard. What I said was that the Canadian government was not the only party responsible for that screening. They share that with the British and the Soviets, who did visit the camp, and did screen soldiers.. What it says in the report is that it was not the role of the commission to revisit that dispute, but rather to look at the evidence.

As for "bad Nazis", If you mean those who allegedly committed war crimes, not just everyone who wore the uniform, that comes down to the accusations. Again, according to the Dechenes commission, the Wiesenthal Centre had 94 such allegations, some without full names, and with no clear evidence of how many were among those in Italy, how many had been killed when the division was destroyed in 1994, and how many joined up since.

Even if one assumed them to all be true, and all still alive and in custody in 1945, that is only a small percentage of the thousands who were in custody. So again, I am not disputing that several may have lied, or otherwise evaded proper screening, and I realize that burden of proof is difficult. But that is a long way from tarring the entire division, and those who recognize their war service.

But again, that is why this was first brought up in the 80s and 90s, and presented selectively to equate it with Ukrainian nationalism, while ignoring atrocities and support for the Nazis by others, and ignoring that Ukrainian insurgents fought against the Nazis, the Soviets, and the Poles.

If you really want to reduce this to who is trusting, then it is on you to present evidence. I am no happier than you about the fact that there were few witnesses, and even fewer clear accusations. But that is how it is. And while I agree with you that we should assume some probably did make it into Canada illegally, even the strongest claims point to a small percentage of the potential whole. there is no foundation for you to take this smear as far as you have.

(edit)

I mean, it is a brilliant foil, and I can understand why the Soviets, and the Russians since them use it, and have gone to such lengths to cover their own reputation and their own actions. You aren't supposed to be able to question it because if you do you are doing the unconscionable - defending Nazis.

Wed, 2017-01-04 13:32

#67

Hurtin Albertan

I'll briefly poke my nose into this thread to mention that not all members of SS units were volunteers.

SS and Waffen-SS units might have started the war as so-called "elite" all-volunteer units, but towards the end of the war they were conscripting new recruits into various SS combat units regardless of whether they were die-hard Nazis or just unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Part of my family tree has roots in western Ukraine. I had a great-aunt that was a rabid anti-Semite up to her dying day. Maybe some of my other Ukranian-Canadian relatives shared her views, she was the only one that ever ranted openly about it. Visiting with her was kind of like the running gag from the old Fawlty Towers TV show, "Whatever you do, don't mention the war".

I do remember her mentioning that we had distant relatives of some sort that fought for the Germans against the Russians, it was a point of pride with her. I have no idea whether they served with SS-Galicia or some other unit and frankly I do not really care enough to try and figure it all out. It's a part of my family history that I am not in any way proud of, but it's worth remembering.

Guess all I am really trying to say is, history is complicated and messy, Ukranian history is even more messy and complicated. We shouldn't whitewash the past or look at it through the rose-tinted glasses either. I'm sure my great-Aunt saw those distant unknown relatives as heroic patriots or some such BS, some people still view Bandera as a Ukranian patriot, etc etc.

Thanks for looking into this usually-overlooked part of Canadian history.

Wed, 2017-01-04 15:08

#68

NDPP

Stories From Oles Buzina: SS Galicia Division Against Ukraine

https://ninabyzantina.com/2015/05/01/history-from-oles-buzina-ss-galicia...

"The inglorious path of this SS Division is the biography of one bitter Galician illusion that some are trying to revive even today..."

Mon, 2017-01-09 14:43

#69

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Hurtin Albertan wrote:

I had a great-aunt that was a rabid anti-Semite ... we had distant relatives of some sort that fought for the Germans against the Russians, it was a point of pride with her. I have no idea whether they served with SS-Galicia or some other unit .... We shouldn't whitewash the past or look at it through the rose-tinted glasses either. I'm sure my great-Aunt saw those distant unknown relatives as heroic patriots or some such BS, some people still view Bandera as a Ukranian patriot, .... Thanks for looking into this usually-overlooked part of Canadian history.

Thanks for sharing that personal history... This discussion includes people descended from nationalist Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis as well those whose families were massacred by Ukrainian Nazis. Is anyone else in our electronic midst linked to this history?

Hurtin Albertan, you rightly note that "some people still view Bandera as a Ukranian patriot."

In Canada, the leadership in the Ukrainian Canadian Congress (UCC) has been dominated by Banderites for the last 20 years. Canadian Banderites are organized, primarily, as the League of Ukrainian Canadians (LUC), its youth organization (CYM) and its women's league (LUCW). Paul Grod, the president of the UCC, is a leading figure in CYM. The online membership list of the UCC includes these Banderite groups:

League of Ukrainian Canadians (LUC/LUK) - This is the Banderite OUN. (Here is my article on the OUN). Here is their website
http://www.lucorg.com/news.php

On their website you'll see this collage of 3 photos from the Ukrainian Cultural Centre, Toronto. Note the large photo of Bandera in each.

Ukrainian centre in Toronto with portrait of Bandera

Ukrainian Youth Association (CYM or, in English, SUM) - This is the youth league of the Banderite OUN, i.e., what we might call the Bandera Youth. Here is its website
http://cym.org/ca/

See below a photo of Paul Grod, now president of the UCC, sitting front and centre with uniformed Bandera youth at the CYM conference in 2013. They are flanked by two photos: Queen Elisabeth II and Stepan Bandera.

UCCC president Grod with Bandera youth

CYM is an international organisation. Click here for a photo from their UK branch which shows uniformed children with the same portrait of Bandera used by CYM Canada.

League of Ukrainian Canadian Women - This is the women’s league of the Banderites in Canada

This info was verified with Per Anders Rudling by email.

Mon, 2017-01-09 18:03

#70

6079_Smith_W

Well he most definitely was a Ukrainian patriot, Richard, and although he was a fascist, and his faction was not the only one, he played an instrumental role in the formation of that country.

As for how he is viewed today, many of those same people recognize that he committed crimes against humanity. And in that, he is hardly alone.

Leaders from Churchill to Macdonald to Lincoln played instrumental roles in their nations' history, while also bearing some responsibility for atrocities.

As for why there are portraits of him, does that really surprise you, considering that everyone, including the Soviets, suppressed much of that history until the 1980s?

I understand the motive behind posting this information. Fact is, everyone here has read this scores of times over; it has been open information for several years now. Anyone inclined to consider it damning toward anyone other than Bandera himself has probably already come to that conclusion.

Mon, 2017-01-09 18:51

#71

quizzical

Richard Sanders wrote:

NDP MP Posts Photos to her Facebook page showing banner of Waffen SS Galicia

The banner of the Waffen SS Galicia was prominently displayed at a recent event of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress (UCC) in November 2016. This event was held at Edmonton City Hall to commemorate the anniversary of the 1932-33 famine.

Photographs and a video of this event (showing the Waffen SS banner) were posted by NDP MP Linda Duncan, to her Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/LindaDuncanMP/posts/10154117226118733

In the top right photo and in the video, you will see a Ukrainian veteran holding the flag of 14th Waffen-SS division Galician. The banner contains a blue crest with a Galician lion surrounded by three yellow crowns. This is the symbol under which all of the Waffen SS Galicia soldiers fought, including those particular units known to have massacred tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, and communists, forced innocent people into concentration camps, fought our allies and generally took part in the Holocaust.

While this symbol may seem benign to most Canadians, it is as striking as a Nazi swastika to many people.

You can see other images of the Waffen SS Galicia and their symbol here

The Waffen SS Galicia was recruited, armed, financed, and commanded by the Nazis. It did not fight against the Nazis. It was a Nazi unit. All of its volunteer recruits had to make this pledge before joining:

“I swear before God this holy oath, that in the battle against Bolshevism, I will give absolute obedience to the commander in chief of the German Armed Forces Adolf Hitler, and as a brave soldier, I will always be prepared to lay down my life.”1

Recruits swore this “holy oath” after a religious service led by military chaplain Vasyl’ Laba. After coming to Canada, Laba was the Ukrainian Catholic “vicar at the Edmonton eparchy from 1950 and became honorary member of the Ukrainian War Veterans Association in Edmonton.”2

In the very last days of WWII, when the Nazi's defeat was imminent and inevitable, this Nazi unit changed their name from the 14th Waffen-SS division Galician to the "1st-Division of the Ukrainian National Army." The Cyrillic letters, in what appears to be a black, iron cross around the crest, are the acronym of this euphemistic name change. The soldiers never fought under this latter name. All their fighting was done under the name: "14th Waffen-SS division Galician." When these Nazi veterans were welcomed to Canada by the Liberals (who had not long before been rejecting all Jewish refugees, or putting them in Canadian POW camps!), they formed a group called Veterans of the 1st-Division of the Ukrainian National Army which joined the UCC, along with other Nazi linked veterans. These Nazi veterans groups were listed as national members of the UCC on their website for many years until these group names were removed last year (perhaps coincidentally) not long after I published "Captive Canada."

The Waffen SS Galicia, besides changing their name, also invented a new uniform for their veterans after the war, which was virtually identical to that of US veterans. During the war they used the exact same field uniforms as the other Waffen-SS soldiers. Waffen SS Galicia veterans also had their blood group tattooed under their left armpit just as all other Waffen SS soldiers did.

Now almost 72 years after the end of WWII, Waffen SS Galician vets are getting rare, the youngest being born in 1927-28. The UCC clearly thinks that their legacy should still be honoured. I wonder what most Canadians would think of this, if they only knew.

Does Linda Murphy realise that the UCC is an ultra-right nationalist Ukrainian group that was formed by the Liberal government in 1940 as a bulwark against leftist Ukrainians? Does she realise that the photos she posted included a banner of a Nazi SS unit?

Notes:

1.    Per Anders Rudling, “‘They Defended Ukraine’: The 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division derSS (Galizische Nr. 1) Revisited,” Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Sept. 2012, p.343.
     http://www.academia.edu/1908894/_They_Defended_Ukraine_The_14._Waffen-Grenadier-Division_der_SS_Galizische_Nr._1_Revisited_The_Journal_of_Slavic_Military_Studies_25_3_2012_329-368

2. Ibid.

P.S. I have been in correspondence with Per Anders Rudling and he has confirmed today the facts above.

Mon, 2017-01-09 19:01

#72

quizzical

smith i think richards posts are interesting. i know shit about this history except for Holodomor and i've been reading more and learning.

richard stop with the purity test questions it was a public event.

btw by the time you get to the end of your post you get her name wrong which tells me your post disparaging her is a nonsensical hatchet job.

along with the reality you can't make out any symbol on any flags in your link.

Mon, 2017-01-09 19:06

#73

Unionist

quizzical wrote:

smith i think richards posts are interesting. i know shit about this history except for Holodomor and i've been reading more and learning.

richard stop with the purity test questions it was a public event.

btw by the time you get to the end of your post you get her name wrong which tells me your post disparaging her is a nonsensical hatchet job.

along with the reality you can't make out any symbol on any flags in your link.

My family was murdered by these filthy bastards, quizzical - the Nazis and their Ukrainian collaborators - 3 grandparents, 6 uncles and aunts, my older brother, many others. Please avoid the minor errors and have some respect. Please. Seriously.

Mon, 2017-01-09 20:53

#74

6079_Smith_W

I agree it is a fascinating, if terrible period in history, quizzical.

I just don't think the way it is being spun here is entirely accurate, and I think it is being done for a specific purpose.

As for the people in that photo, or the event in Edmonton. I am sure some aren't aware of the history. On the other hand, I am sure plenty are, and consider it in the same way any of us consider our deeply conflicted history.

That some of them may be fascists, racists, and anti-communists who support those atrocities which took place the three quarters of a century ago? I am sure it is possible; your guess is as good as mine.

Fact is, this is hardly the only example of that kind of dark history. Not the only example from that time and place (even if some pretend it is) and certainly not the only example here in Canada

Tue, 2017-01-10 00:24

#75

quizzical

Unionist wrote:
quizzical wrote:
smith i think richards posts are interesting. i know shit about this history except for Holodomor and i've been reading more and learning.

richard stop with the purity test questions it was a public event.

btw by the time you get to the end of your post you get her name wrong which tells me your post disparaging her is a nonsensical hatchet job.

along with the reality you can't make out any symbol on any flags in your link.

My family was murdered by these filthy bastards, quizzical - the Nazis and their Ukrainian collaborators - 3 grandparents, 6 uncles and aunts, my older brother, many others. Please avoid the minor errors and have some respect. Please. Seriously.

unionist i'm not going to get into a whose family has been devasted by whom contest with you and what filthy bastards they are. my family's genocide is still on going today. 'nuff said.

pardon me for not focusing on your family's history.

Tue, 2017-01-10 08:48

#76

NDPP

Bandera: The Legacy of Self-Loathing Nazis in America

http://washingtonsblog.com/2015/01/bandera-legacy-self-loathing-nazis-am...

Neo-Banderites and Friends

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/news/press-releases/atlantic-council-and-...

Paul Grod et al

Tue, 2017-01-10 08:57

#77

6079_Smith_W

Well that's the ironic thing.

They didn't start using this smear when Ukraine dared to become its own country. Or when NATO allegedly moved in to destroy Russia.

They started the most recent campaign back in the early 80s when people started bringing up the Holodomor because it had been 50 years. I am sure anyone old enough rremembers that, and heard about this guy's book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tottle

And that everyone calling it genocide was just a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. Or someone trying to downplay the Holocaust. Likewise, all the Ukrainian academics or community leaders? Just Nazi sympathizers.

And if you dare to point that out?

Of course Tottle was just one of many spinning that lie.

The corollory to that (and the real point they want to make) is at the end of NDPP's article (#67). "All the real Ukrainians were in the Red Army".

Tue, 2017-01-10 09:21

#78

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

NDP MP Posts Photos to her Facebook page showing banner of Waffen SS Galicia

The banner of the Waffen SS Galicia was prominently displayed at a recent event of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress (UCC) in November 2016. This event was held at Edmonton City Hall to commemorate the anniversary of the 1932-33 famine.

Photographs and a video of this event (showing the Waffen SS banner) were posted by NDP MP Linda Duncan, to her Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/LindaDuncanMP/posts/10154117226118733

In the top right photo and in the video, you will see a Ukrainian veteran holding the flag of 14th Waffen-SS division Galician. The banner contains a blue crest with a Galician lion surrounded by three yellow crowns. This is the symbol under which all of the Waffen SS Galicia soldiers fought, including those particular units known to have massacred tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, and communists, forced innocent people into concentration camps, fought our allies and generally took part in the Holocaust.

While this symbol may seem benign to most Canadians, it is as striking as a Nazi swastika to many people.

You can see other images of the Waffen SS Galicia and their symbol here

The Waffen SS Galicia was recruited, armed, financed, and commanded by the Nazis. It did not fight against the Nazis. It was a Nazi unit. All of its volunteer recruits had to make this pledge before joining:

“I swear before God this holy oath, that in the battle against Bolshevism, I will give absolute obedience to the commander in chief of the German Armed Forces Adolf Hitler, and as a brave soldier, I will always be prepared to lay down my life.”1

Recruits swore this “holy oath” after a religious service led by military chaplain Vasyl’ Laba. After coming to Canada, Laba was the Ukrainian Catholic “vicar at the Edmonton eparchy from 1950 and became honorary member of the Ukrainian War Veterans Association in Edmonton.”2

In the very last days of WWII, when the Nazi's defeat was imminent and inevitable, this Nazi unit changed their name from the 14th Waffen-SS division Galician to the "1st-Division of the Ukrainian National Army." The Cyrillic letters, in what appears to be a black, iron cross around the crest, are the acronym of this euphemistic name change. The soldiers never fought under this latter name. All their fighting was done under the name: "14th Waffen-SS division Galician." When these Nazi veterans were welcomed to Canada by the Liberals (who had not long before been rejecting all Jewish refugees, or putting them in Canadian POW camps!), they formed a group called Veterans of the 1st-Division of the Ukrainian National Army which joined the UCC, along with other Nazi linked veterans. These Nazi veterans groups were listed as national members of the UCC on their website for many years until these group names were removed last year (perhaps coincidentally) not long after I published "Captive Canada."

The Waffen SS Galicia, besides changing their name, also invented a new uniform for their veterans after the war, which was virtually identical to that of US veterans. During the war they used the exact same field uniforms as the other Waffen-SS soldiers. Waffen SS Galicia veterans also had their blood group tattooed under their left armpit just as all other Waffen SS soldiers did.

Now almost 72 years after the end of WWII, Waffen SS Galician vets are getting rare, the youngest being born in 1927-28. The UCC clearly thinks that their legacy should still be honoured. I wonder what most Canadians would think of this, if they only knew.

Does Linda Duncan realise that the UCC is an ultra-right nationalist Ukrainian group that was formed by the Liberal government in 1940 as a bulwark against leftist Ukrainians? Does she realise that the photos she posted included a banner of a Nazi SS unit?

Notes:

1. Per Anders Rudling, “‘They Defended Ukraine’: The 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division derSS (Galizische Nr. 1) Revisited,” Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Sept. 2012, p.343.
http://www.academia.edu/1908894/_They_Defended_Ukraine_The_14._Waffen-Grenadier-Division_der_SS_Galizische_Nr._1_Revisited_The_Journal_of_Slavic_Military_Studies_25_3_2012_329-368

2. Ibid.

P.S. I have been in correspondence with Per Anders Rudling and he has confirmed today the facts above.

Tue, 2017-01-10 10:23

#79

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

NDPP wrote:

Bandera: The Legacy of Self-Loathing Nazis in America
http://washingtonsblog.com/2015/01/bandera-legacy-self-loathing-nazis-am...

Neo-Banderites and Friends
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/news/press-releases/atlantic-council-and-...

Thanks for those two articles NDPP, and for the one you posted earlier re: "Oles Buzina"

The article "Legacy of Self-Loathing Nazis in America" contains some fascinating info on Bandera's role in an assassination plot against FDR. I hadn't heard of that though I did know of the American Liberty League's involvement in the fascist coup attempt that was thwarted by my hero US General S.Butler. I researched that story back in 2004.
"Wall Street's Plot to Seize the White House: Facing the Corporate Roots of American Fascism"

The article you provided re: the Atlantic Council led me to learn that Paul Grod is the vice-president of the Ukrainian World Congress (UWC), which I had no knowledge of. I did a google search of their website for references to Bandera. There are eight. These demonstrate clearly that the UWC, based in Toronto, is very much in the Bandera camp, revering him as a great "national hero." One of their media releases even goes so far as to completely deny that the Bandera-led OUN collaborated with the Nazis, calling that an "unsubstantiated allegation":

UWC Vice President addresses "Ukrainians in the World ...
www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/news.php/popup/1/news/450
Dec 17, 2010 - "... Ukrainian heroes such as Symon Petliura, Yevhen Konovalets, Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych."

UWC President meets with the Chairperson of the European Parliament ...
www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/news.php/popup/1/news/454

"The UWC President ... focused on paragraph 20 of the European Parliament resolution of 25 February 2010 on the situation in Ukraine highlighting the fact that it demeaned the honor of national hero of Ukraine Stepan Bandera and the Bandera-led Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). Eugene Czolij referred to a letter from the UWC in this regard dated March 3, 2010 addressed to the President of the European Parliament Jerzy Buzek which outlines Stepan Bandera’s role in Ukraine’s struggle for independence and dispels the unsubstantiated allegation that under Bandera’s leadership the OUN collaborated with the Nazi regime."

Here is some info on Paul Grod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_M._Grod

"He has led several international election observation missions in Ukraine.

He visits Ukraine on a regular basis and has met with leading Ukrainian politicians such as, President Petro Poroshenko, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Yuliya Tymoshenko. He also accompanied Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s and Foreign Minister John Baird`s delegations to Ukraine.[4]

During his tenure as UCC President, he has successfully ensured Ukraine becoming a top foreign policy priority for Canada ....

For a third consecutive year, Grod was named in 2014 as one of the top 100 people influencing Canada’s global future by Embassy Magazine & Hill Times’ Power and Influence magazine."

Here is one of several photos of Justin Trudeau posing with Paul Grod.
http://www.ucc.ca/2015/10/20/ucc-congratulates-pm-designate-justin-trude...

Tue, 2017-01-10 10:56

#80

NDPP

As well as Grod, Lena Koszarny, Kiev representative of the UCC Advisory Council, and longtime business associate of US national and Ukrainian minister Natalie Jaresko, is also a person of interest in the UCC 'Canuction' to Ukraine.

Canada extends a hand to Ukraine's Ultra Nationalists

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/03/05/4105

Now, with the announcement of the appointment of Chrystia Freeland to Minister of Global Affairs, the Atlanticists, Russia-haters and UCC ultranationalist lobby really has something to celebrate. As for the rest of the Canucklehead nation. Well, they don't have a clue, still think Maidan's Ukronazi putsch was a 'revolution of dignity' and as usual will be just along for the ride.

Tue, 2017-01-10 11:25

#81

6079_Smith_W

Well good to have that flushed out, and get on to why this is really being brought up.

So which is it? The one where some people back in 2010 were in denial of OUN B's collaboration with the Nazis.

Or the one where they are allegedly all Nazis, even though they have a coalition government, with numerous parties in their parliament.

Of course there's the other one, where they aren't a real country, a real culture, or a real language at all.

Tue, 2017-01-10 17:41

#82

NDPP

The Ukrainian Diaspora's Private War with Canada's National Interests

http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/ukrainian-diasporas-private-war-can...

"The right-wing Ukrainian-Canadian-Congress (UCC) has been the driving force behind the Canadian government's unwavering anti-Russia policy."

Federal Candidates and Parties Declare their Positions on Ukraine

http://www.ucc.ca/2015/10/15/federal-election-candidates-respond-to-ucc-...

Waffen-SS Galician Division still Revered by Canada’s Ukrainian Right

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