Is the US and its NATO "allies" planning to attack Russia and start World War III?

kropotkin1951 wrote:

jjuares wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

By contrast, having forces toe to toe used to be the norm in Europe. And one thing convenently being ignored here is that the deployment of those ground troops is far more in the interests of the border states than the other NATO nations.

I am sure that the war manoeuvres bring lots of money into the local economies. The idea that Russia is about to invade a NATO ally is just patently absurd. 

It might be absurd but it seems tobe the only reasonable explanation. NATO might believe this, otherwise this policy of ramping up heat is counterproductive.

It is certainly not counterproductive for the war industry that is trying to get all NATO countries to invest in unbelievable obscene amounts of new weapons systems and planes etc.

WIthout any tension who knows maybe the citizens of the "free" world would vote for parties that didn't want to spend on WMD and other war toys.

The other interesting thing is the focus on Putin and his human rights record. I am no Putin fan but it seems to me that Saudi Arabia is worse, much worse and we are helping to arm them.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You can quibble about it or call it fake news as much as you want.

So the answer is you don't have a clue about the news "media" you quote. You quote them because they spout the NATO propaganda line. That is consistant with your posting history. 

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You can quibble about it or call it fake news as much as you want.

I offered it as a reason why those border states might want tanks and troops there. And that is the reason. Not that they would make any difference in an end game that involved nuclear arms. They wouldn't at all. But as a bit of insurance that the parties who control those missiles would act.

Here's a story from a year and a half ago, before they traded him back.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/19/russia-jails-estonian-poli...

And of course it is absurd that Russia would invade a NATO ally. Which is precisely the point. Especially when they look at other non-NATO border states which have been invaded.

 

 

 

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming. I hope they don't make us drink vodka and wear those furry hats. My head would be so itchy from them.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You can quibble about it or call it fake news as much as you want.

So the answer is you don't have a clue about the news "media" you quote. You quote them because they spout the NATO propaganda line. That is consistent with your posting history. 

No kropotkin. It was an international story, covered by numerous media. He was kidnapped and jailed, which is why people in that country are understandably alarmed.

 My point is I am not surprised you doubt the story.

So the answer is you don't have a clue about the news "media" you quote. You obviously believe in news far more than I do. I doubt many things especially spin from either side in an international dispute. That idea of doubting most things is probably why I, unlike you, do not believe the majority of NATO propaganda. 

Here's another good international story covered by numerous media that I doubted and frankly still do. For some people it was enough for them that a US envoy made the claim. It didn't pass the smell test for me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-troops-rape-idUSTRE73S74B20110429

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/29/diplomat-gaddafi-troops-vi...

So much pro-Russian "rebuttal" seems to take the form of way over-the-top nonsense like "All Russians should be killed with a red-hot dagger, because Freedom!!! Hoo-rah!!!"

Here's my current favourite -- and no, this isn't my parody of it, it's for realz:

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Should they all just die or should some be allowed to live? And who decides? Maybe you could be in charge. Because freedom.

Are all us "Russophobes" just not actually "Russophobic" enough, and so you have to turn to make-believe?

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Actually, I'm not sorry. It's good to embarrass stupid. And you were.

"Should they all just DIE???  Or can some be allowed to LIVE??? ", said the tough victor, weeping.

Congrats on "winning" that one.  A manly display of manliness, it was.  And as a happy ending, all those Russians DID live.

Area 51. The Daily Mail.

Gotta wonder if they are the same planes that just a few months back were being touted here and elsewhere as signs of an imminent American false flag aerial attack in Syria ... yawn. 

I haven't erased or changed anything.  Looks like it's all still here.

NDPP wrote:

'God Bless America'  -  by Harold Pinter

Here they go again,

The Yanks in their armoured parade,

http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/trump-administra...

"We're going to show the people as we build up our military, we're going to display our military. That military may come marching down Pennsylvania Avenue. That military may be flying over New York City and Washington, D.C., for parades. I mean, we're going to be showing our military."

— President-elect Donald Trump, in an interview with the Washington Post. 

 

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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Bigotry. Racism. Seemingly welcome on babble.

Seemingly the mods can tell the difference between criticizing a country's intentional actions and racism.

I would think so -- especially as this intentional confusion is the tool of the let Israel away with anything tactic.

This is exactly the same argument used to defend Israel against anything and everything.

It is not as if there are not people who are bigotted and racist but instead of promoting a world free of that, there are people who will use the existence of racism and bigotry to silence those they disagree with. It is disgusting.

ikosmos wrote:

Magoo knows exactly what he wrote. "A rogue nation" is not "the repressive ZYX regime" and he knows it, as, I think, do you. 

This is bigotry and racism. Dress it up any way you like. 

Funny, because you are the one who is so big on targetting nations, like The United States of Stupid.

Yet when someone calls another nation out it is pretty clear you can dish it out, but not take it.

Of course we knew that already, given what you seem to think falls under your definition of Russophobia.

But even if that were not the case, no, having an opinion on a nation and its policies is neither bigotry nor racism. Nations are not people. They do not have a race, and they do not have rights.

 

The problem with using 'rogue nation' as a description is that it was initially used by the USA to describe any nation that didn't do what the USA wanted.

Here's the lowdown on 'rogue state' from Wikipedia:

Rogue State

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Rogue state is a controversial term applied by some international theorists to states they consider threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction. The term is used most by the United States, though the US State Department officially stopped using the term in 2000. However, it has been applied by other countries as well.

...As early as July 1985, President Reagan had asserted that "we are not going to tolerate … attacks from outlaw states by the strangest collection of misfits, loony tunes, and squalid criminals since the advent of the Third Reich," but it fell to the Clinton administration to elaborate this concept. In the 1994 issue of Foreign Affairs, National Security Advisor Anthony Lake claimed "the reality of recalcitrant and outlaw states that not only choose to remain outside the family [of democratic nations] but also assault its basic values. Lake labeled five regimes as "rogue states": North Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iran and Libya.

In theory, at least, to be classified as a rogue, a state had to commit four transgressions: pursue weapons of mass destruction, support terrorism, severely abuse its own citizens, and stridently criticize the United States. While four of the listed rogue states met all these transgressions, Cuba, though still known for severely abusing its citizens and its strident criticism of the United States, no longer met all the transgressions required for a rogue state and was put on the list solely because of the political influence of the American Cuban community and specifically that of the Cuban American National Foundation.

Syria and Pakistan, two nations which were hardly regarded by the United States as paragons of rectitude, avoided being added to the list because the United States hoped that Damascus could play a constructive role in the Arab-Israeli peace process, and because Washington had long maintained close relations with Islamabad—a vestige of the Cold War.

There you have it, folks. What's a 'rogue' state? Ask the USA State Department.

 

Glad we agree it is fair comment. Most of us, anyway.

ikosmos wrote:

Ok, then , let's say we replaced the word "Russian" with the word "Jew" in the context noted.

Do you consider Russia to be a place for ethnic Russians, and no one else? Do you see its government as serving the interests of ethnic Russians, and no one else?

That is one of the criticisms of Israel's government in fact. And it is also a policy issue Vladimir Putin has raised with other countries:

http://www.eurodialogue.eu/Putin%20courts%20ethnic%20Russians,%20goads%2...

So in a backwards sort of way you might be right, even though it has nothing to do with our criticism. But it does raise the question of who is the one being racist.

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This is bigotry and racism. Dress it up any way you like.

The discussion was, and always was, focussed on the involvement of the Russian government in the cheating.  I'm not sure how that was ever unclear, since that was all that made this exceptional.  It was not about a few "bad" apples, similar to (say) Lance Armstrong and his coach, it was about official participation.  Government participation.  That was literally what we were commenting on.

And four months later you're still trying to tell me what I was "really" saying.

FWIW, ikosmos, this is a great example of what a lot of babblers seem to be getting really bored of.  Are you sure you wouldn't rather keep your powder dry? 

Those saying that the current regime in the US is safer than Clinton -- read this:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/29/1626928/-Bannon-s-Blueprint-Read...

Very difficult after reading this to think that this is any improvement

Putin Predicted Uncontained Hyper-Use of Military Force by NATO a Decade Ago

https://t.co/QKzC5v4Ejc

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/376972-anniversary-putins-munich-speech/

Putin's speech at the 2007 Munich Security Conference has proven prophetic...

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NATO Accuses Russia of Fake News While Hysterically Warning of WWIII

Hasn't babble been "hysterically" warning of WWIII?

I was literally going to post a link to that thread until I noticed that THIS is that thread.

Do you feel that maybe you were also being a bit "hysterical" when you started this thread a year and a half ago, NDPP?

Not sure how I duffed that, but you're right.  My mistake.

US F-35 Fighter Jets Arrive in Europe For The First Time

https://on.rt.com/88zo

"A fleet of F-35 stealth fighter jets has arrived in Europe from the United States as part of a planned NATO exercise aimed at 'deterring' Russia.

'The forward presence of F-35 support my priority of having ready and postured forces here in Europe,' said NATO's Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, General Curtis M Scaparotti in an official statement.

'These aircraft, plus more importantly, the men and women who operate them, fortifies the capacity and capability of our NATO alliance.'

'We're not getting along with Russia at all,' Trump said on Wednesday, after meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stollenberg."

Russian SU-27 Warns Off NATO F-16 Trying To Approach Defense Minister's Plane Over Baltic

https://on.rt.com/8fhr

"A NATO F-16 fighter jet has tried to approach the Russian defense minister's plane above the neutral waters of the Baltic Sea. The plane was warded off by a Russian SU-27 escorting the minister's aircraft..."