The Freeland-Chomiak Connection: "It takes a village to raise a Nazi"

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6079_Smith_W

I agree with you about the biases in the mainsteam media, kropotkin. And I expect Magoo does as well. But it really is a matter of degrees, and we are talking about two separate things - agenda and bias (which we all have to some degree), and the willingness to let that agenda override a sense of fairness and honesty.

I have read writers who with whom I might agree on a specific issue, but also realize that they are completely useless because what they are writing is propaganda, and if there was an important counter argument I couldn't trust them to mention it. By contrast I have read writers with whom I completely disagree politically, but whose opinion and respect for fairness I know I can trust.

As for Richard, the first time he posted here I thanked him for bringing up things I was not fully aware of. In that sense I find some of his material worthwhile, if only because it gives me some impetus to dig into it and find how much is truth, and what has been left out. And as Magoo says, those omissions and leaps of logic are sometimes glaring.

I do care about these issues he posts about, and more importantly, I care about fairness in reporting. I don't just jump in to give him a hard time. If he does want to post here I wish he would drop this rhetoric about people being angry, abusing him, or wanting to post. I know it might be too much to ask to expect him to give a bit of ground and recognize that there is blame on all sides here; I'd settle for just having conversation without the implication that people are trying to shut him down, or that this is somehow suppressed information, or that there is something wrong with having a range of opinion here.

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
And I expect Magoo does as well. But it really is a matter of degrees, and we are talking about two separate things - agenda and bias (which we all have to some degree), and the willingness to let that agenda override a sense of fairness and honesty.

Yes.

Quote:
I have read writers who with whom I might agree on a specific issue, but also realize that they are completely useless because what they are writing is propaganda, and if there was an important counter argument I couldn't trust them to mention it. By contrast I have read writers with whom I completely disagree politically, but whose opinion and respect for fairness I know I can trust.

Yes.

kropotkin1951

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Strange how you only see one side's propaganda and not the embedded right wing agenda.

That's because that one side's propaganda sets its hair on fire, jumps up and down, and screeches "Look at me!  Look at who the real fascist is!!!!!!!"  They make it easy for all of us to see.

Indeed you are correct that the oligarchy are far better at propaganda. It helps that there are useful idiots everywhere who are  just thrilled to pass on the talking points and trash talk the latest villian du jour. It makes manufacturing consent in Western societies so much easier.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Indeed you are correct that the oligarchy are far better at propaganda.

Whoops!  No.  I was referring to our own Richard "raise a Nazi" Sanders.

Look, I know you've no love of the opponents of Putin, and for the record, I've no more love for Freeland than you ( I voted Hollett, in MY RIDING) but evidently OMFG, someone marched around in a uniform or something!  What's with the RUSSOPHOBIA???   Lieberals and Ukies and Russophobes, Oh My!!!

kropotkin1951

You seem to have missed my meaning. Propaganda that is subtle is far more effective. Most people can't be fooled by blatent stuff but our MSM is subtle enough to fool many people who honestly believe they are immune to it. It is mere coincidence that they buy the official line almost all the time.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Propaganda that is subtle is far more effective.

Probably.  But what if you're too angry, or not intelligent enough, to be subtle?

That seems a bit unfair.

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

I'm really sick of this. 

My research exposes many links between Canada's Foreign Minister and fascist organisation, publications and ideologies that still exist in Canada.  They are everywhere in Canada.  They are deeply embedded in our culture. They are part of the furniture, even in Rabble. 

If my work is of interest to anyone, then they can follow the links and read the summary of my research.  If they don't think that research is of any value, that's fine, I don't care, they can go a do something else. 

While i find it sort of interesting that so many of the comments here have little or nothing at all to do with the subject of my research, i.e., they make no mention of Freeland or Chomiak, that interest is wearing thin. 

While it bothers me that so many comments avoid any reference to Freeland or Chomiak, let alone any reference to my research about them, it is foolish to try to argue with folks to try to get them to actually comment on Freeland or Chomiak.

I've done my "job" and produced a summary of my research.  It is out there.  It is like a little tiny almost invisible seed floating in a huge cloud. It probably has no life.  It probably won't amount to much of anything. But I should not throw good time after bad. I have to let it go and get back to other pressing matters.  It was and is a big distraction from other work.

I had a dream two nights ago that I was in a room with Trump.  I started to say what I thought about Syria but within a few seconds I realised there was absolutely no point.  It was a waste of time.  That dream was really about Rabble.  As soon as I woke up I realised that arguing here on rabble -- with people who try to spin my research in the exact opposite direct and completely avoid any discussion of the point, ie., Freeland's links to fascist grps etc -- is what the dream was about.  It was a message from my subconscious telling me to avoid wasting any more of my time. 

NDPP

It's an amazing and valuable body of research Richard. Congratulations and many thanks for it. And unfortunately, you're right about the 'progressive' putrefaction too. Fuck them. But keep posting!

The Canada Syndrome, A Captivating Mass Psychosis

http://coat.ncf.ca/P4C/68/68_2-4.pdf

Unionist

Thank you, Richard. And don't feel that you need to defend your work against apologists for Nazi collaborators, slaves of Donald Trump (like Chrystia Freeland), and the like. That's not what rabble is about, as you well know. Please keep up the painstaking research. It is much appreciated.

6079_Smith_W

'Scuse me, but I have commented on Freeland. I have commented on Chomiak, and that includes saying that he should be held responsible for the degree to which he collaborated with the Nazis. So what are you talking about, Richard? Seems to me you have a problem with the fact some of us don't agree with everything else you are trying to sell.

I think we settled some time ago that we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the question of Ukraine independence. As for the central point of this article - drawing a presumed direct line between Freeland and Adolf Hitler, and making smears implying that she is a Nazi - I have already told you what I think about that.

As for being compared to Holocaust deniers, and Nazi apologists, and being told we can fuck off. You boys have a problem with the direction of the conversation? Well I presume you have fingers and can type. No one is stopping you.

And I am still curious about your "fighting the Nazis" thing. I am not going to push it forever, but honestly I am interested.

 

 

Pondering

I only skimmed the first post because you lost me at "her grandfather".  What her grandfather did is as immaterial as what my grandfather did. In my view if anything it would explain her connections to people who would otherwise be objectionable. It isn't someone's fault to be born into an objectionable family. What matters is what they personally have done as adults aside from knowing the wrong people or having the wrong parents. 

WWWTT

@Richard Sanders

I’ll comment here on this thread due to getting bumped 

I think it’s become common knowledge now about freeland’s nazi heritage. And you are probably the one to thank for that  I personally don’t have time to read your 25k word article so I let other posters here vouch for you and I’ll take your word on it. 

Whats happened in the past is past. Not really sure what new could be learned from revisiting? 

However there is one thing I find interesting in this, and that’s the huge bullshit web that politicians try to weave  and maintain to trap in and hold support for election 

If anything Richard Sanders, your work has proven that the liberals have the most bizarre perplexing political web! This probably isn’t what you’re going for. 

Also you mentioned a dream you had. You ever have a dream about building a go-cart with your neighbor? 

NDPP

It's only immaterial if she doesn't continue to further the same Ukrainian fascist ultranationalist political ideals and objectives that her Banderist grand-father did. Unfortunately that is not the case. You should have read further...

https://twitter.com/mikolaswed/status/913468028741996545

http://rabble.ca/comment/5340006#comment-5340006

https://twitter.com/VeraVanHorne/status/585956481377378304

WWWTT

Ok fair enough NDPP, there could be more to this than just trying to pry political contributions. But at the very least, freeland is courting people on the fringes. Suppling arms to Ukraine, possibly? Could be part of her web for political contributions?

Very difficult web for her to keep going considering that Israel support is probably a bigger chunk in that same web. 

Unionist

Can anyone be seriously ignorant enough not to know that Freeland still lauds her Nazi grandfather on her official Liberal Party web page, calling him a "political exile" and someone who kept "the dream of Ukrainian independence alive"? Besides being the shrillest champion of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev?

She can condemn and reject her grandfather's murderous legacy, or she can cover it up for decades (as she has done) and follow in his bloodstained footsteps. She can't be blamed for having her grandfather. She can be blamed for being her grandfather.

Pondering

Unionist wrote:
  Can anyone be seriously ignorant enough not to know that Freeland still lauds her Nazi grandfather on her official Liberal Party web page, calling him a "political exile" and someone who kept "the dream of Ukrainian independence alive"? Besides being the shrillest champion of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev? 

I would guess upwards of 99% of Canadians have not been to Freeland's website therefore are seriously ignorant. I consider myself in good company. 

Are Ukrainian independence and Nazism inextricably intertwined? The notion that bad people are all bad and good people all good is naive. 

Unionist wrote:
  She can condemn and reject her grandfather's murderous legacy, or she can cover it up for decades (as she has done) and follow in his bloodstained footsteps. She can't be blamed for having her grandfather. She can be blamed for being her grandfather. 

Yes well so far I am hearing about her grandfather not her. My general perception is that she is neoliberal and supports military intervention. As far as I know she isn't in favor of rounding up Jews and putting them in concentration camps.

If the concern is with things she personally has done then that is what the opening remarks should focus on rather than on her grandfather. 

@ NDPP

I am not going to go read articles without even a Coles Notes version of why I should consider Freeland a Nazi. 

WWWTT

Unionist wrote:

Can anyone be seriously ignorant enough not to know that Freeland still lauds her Nazi grandfather on her official Liberal Party web page, calling him a "political exile" and someone who kept "the dream of Ukrainian independence alive"? Besides being the shrillest champion of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev?

She can condemn and reject her grandfather's murderous legacy, or she can cover it up for decades (as she has done) and follow in his bloodstained footsteps. She can't be blamed for having her grandfather. She can be blamed for being her grandfather.

Site no longer available 

Anyways, don’t get me wrong Unionist, I’m not defending freeland (the worst Canadian politician going). I just find this liberal web of political donors to be very bizarre?!?!

Clearly freeland is more in her element as a Calgary conservative. 

nicky

NDPP  labels everyone a fascist or Banderist who wants a democratic Ukraine that controls its own future. 

Ironically he seems to want Ukraine to be absorbed by Russia and controlled by Putin who exhibits many classical traits of fascism.

ukraine has many problems and has been repeatedly shortchanged if not  betrayed by its leaders. It is a tragedy that such a cultured and well-educated people with abundant resources cannot find better leadership. Perhaps it can in its current election set for March 31.

but it should be said that for all its problems it is resisting fascism. Of all the European democracies far right parties poll less votes in Ukraine than almost anywhere else. Svoboda for example got 2% last election and looks to do worse this time.

NDPP

[quote=nicky]

NDPP  labels everyone a fascist or Banderist who wants a democratic Ukraine that controls its own future. 

Ironically he seems to want Ukraine to be absorbed by Russia and controlled by Putin who exhibits many classical traits of fascism.

[quote=NDPP]

You're wrong on both counts. 

Unionist

WWWTT wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Can anyone be seriously ignorant enough not to know that Freeland still lauds her Nazi grandfather on her official Liberal Party web page, calling him a "political exile" and someone who kept "the dream of Ukrainian independence alive"? Besides being the shrillest champion of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev?

She can condemn and reject her grandfather's murderous legacy, or she can cover it up for decades (as she has done) and follow in his bloodstained footsteps. She can't be blamed for having her grandfather. She can be blamed for being her grandfather.

Site no longer available 

Well, that's pretty spooky. I linked to that site at 22:58 last night, and sometime within the next 49 minutes (WWTTT's post above was at 23:47), Freeland's page (https://cfreeland.liberal.ca/news-nouvelles/article-my-ukraine/) was not only taken down... her entire Liberal Party site disappeared (http://cfreeland.liberal.ca)!

I've also been posting that link on Facebook in the last couple of days. But clearly, someone noticed something, either here or on Facebook, and deleted the site.

Wow.

For the moment, Freeland's essay "My Ukraine" is still available, so please download it while you can. I have done so. 

WWWTT

OK thanks Unionist. When I build the stomach to read a long winded revisionalist histories version of events, maybe I'll give it a read?  But that's probably code for I'm not going to read it.  :)

Pondering

I skimmed the beginning. I don't see anything wrong with it. No hint that she is in favor of genocide of Jews or anyone else. Seems anti-Putin but not anti-Russia. 

Again I am at a loss to identify what her actual crimes are other than being on the wrong side of progressive opinion. Her book identifies the rise of plutocrats yet she appears to be solidly neoliberal anyway. I don't agree with her economic ideology but that doesn't make her a Nazi. 

If she is such a horrible person it should be easy to point to actions illustrating her guilt that goes beyond holding neoliberal positions. That's bad of course, but it is really common among the powerful so I am not sure how useful it is to point it out. 

contrarianna

Unionist wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Can anyone be seriously ignorant enough not to know that Freeland still lauds her Nazi grandfather on her official Liberal Party web page, calling him a "political exile" and someone who kept "the dream of Ukrainian independence alive"? Besides being the shrillest champion of the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev?

She can condemn and reject her grandfather's murderous legacy, or she can cover it up for decades (as she has done) and follow in his bloodstained footsteps. She can't be blamed for having her grandfather. She can be blamed for being her grandfather.

Site no longer available 

Well, that's pretty spooky. I linked to that site at 22:58 last night, and sometime within the next 49 minutes (WWTTT's post above was at 23:47), Freeland's page (https://cfreeland.liberal.ca/news-nouvelles/article-my-ukraine/) was not only taken down... her entire Liberal Party site disappeared (http://cfreeland.liberal.ca)!

I've also been posting that link on Facebook in the last couple of days. But clearly, someone noticed something, either here or on Facebook, and deleted the site.

Wow.

For the moment, Freeland's essay "My Ukraine" is still available, so please download it while you can. I have done so. 

From that Brookings article, similar or the same as the one just deleted from the Liberal site which was up for a long time: 

Freeland: ....

I'm also a proud member of the Ukrainian-Canadian community. My maternal grandparents fled western Ukraine after Hitler and Stalin signed their non-aggression pact in 1939. They never dared to go back, but they stayed in close touch with their brothers and sisters and their families, who remained behind. For the rest of my grandparents' lives, the y saw themselves as political exiles with a responsibility to keep alive the idea of an independent Ukraine, which had last [sti(stillexisted, briefly, during and after the chaos of the 1917 Russian Revolution. That dream persisted into the next generation, and in some cases the generation after that....

http://csweb.brookings.edu/content/research/essays/2015/myukraine.html

Should her following twitter remarks extolling the political virtues of her beloved Gramps also disappear, maybe she's prepping for a PM opening when their could be more scrutiny:

 @cafreeland   23 Aug 2016

Thinking of my grandparents Mykhailo & Aleksandra Chomiak on Black Ribbon Day. They were forever grateful to Canada for giving them 1/2

refuge and they worked hard to return freedom and democracy to Ukraine. I am proud to honour their memory today. #BlackRibbonDay 2/2

For the (currently) active link:   

 https://twitter.com/cafreeland/status/768200606695776256?lang=en

One can easily imagine a self-serving politician wanting to keep a Nazi skeleton in the closet,  but repeatedly dressing it up in the clothes of his victims --to be revered by all?     That should induce some nausea--and political oblivion.

NDPP

Defending the Myths and Cults of Cold War Canada

'Ongoing state support for East European emigre groups with deep fascist roots.'

https://coat.ncf.ca/P4C/70/ColdWarCda_NEW.htm

"The Canadian government has long supported East European emigre associations whose much-revered founders, leaders and war heroes, include veterans of the Waffen SS divisions and other fascist military formations, perpetrators of the Holocaust and other ethnic-cleansing campaigns, officially from and apologists for Nazi puppet regimes..."

Another excellent must read expose from Richard Sanders on Canada's official pro-fascist support darkside. This requires the attention of all progressive Canadians.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Les Nesseman is that you?

contrarianna

In Canada, the "woke" generation can topple statues of John A Macdonald, but deface a nazi monument and you are guilty of "hate crimes":

The Nation:

Canada’s Nazi Monuments
Why does Canada have not one but several memorials to Nazi collaborators? And why, when statues are toppling all over the world, have Canadian Jewish groups remained silent?
.

....
The monument in question is a cenotaph honoring members of the SS Galichina division of the Waffen-SS, the Nazi party’s military branch whose long list of war crimes includes the Holocaust. The pillar, which is located in a Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville, Ontario, was vandalized with the words “Nazi war monument” sometime around June 21. Early in the investigation, the police classified the vandalism as a “hate crime,” meaning the SS members are the ones who were victims of hate here.

In response to David Pugliese of the Ottawa Citizen, the Halton Regional police spokesman stated, “This incident occurred to a monument and the graffiti appeared to target an identifiable group.” The fact that the “identifiable group” in question is an SS division didn’t seem to matter....

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/

Pondering

contrarianna wrote:

In Canada, the "woke" generation can topple statues of John A Macdonald, but deface a nazi monument and you are guilty of "hate crimes":

The Nation:

Canada’s Nazi Monuments
Why does Canada have not one but several memorials to Nazi collaborators? And why, when statues are toppling all over the world, have Canadian Jewish groups remained silent?
.

....
The monument in question is a cenotaph honoring members of the SS Galichina division of the Waffen-SS, the Nazi party’s military branch whose long list of war crimes includes the Holocaust. The pillar, which is located in a Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville, Ontario, was vandalized with the words “Nazi war monument” sometime around June 21. Early in the investigation, the police classified the vandalism as a “hate crime,” meaning the SS members are the ones who were victims of hate here.

In response to David Pugliese of the Ottawa Citizen, the Halton Regional police spokesman stated, “This incident occurred to a monument and the graffiti appeared to target an identifiable group.” The fact that the “identifiable group” in question is an SS division didn’t seem to matter....

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/

I think the monuments should be preserved as artifacts of history but that they should be placed in gardens of regret with explanations of why they were honoured and why they are now dishonoured. They could be displayed within botanical gardens or large parks. It would be a good way to learn of the wrongs of the past and the notion of national guilt and shame not just pride.  

NDPP

Given Canada's continued funding and support of the Al Qaeda affiliate White Helmets as another recent example, apparently there is no shame. And the tradition continues as Sanders' new piece clearly indicates. See also first link in #64.

MegB

Pondering wrote:

contrarianna wrote:

In Canada, the "woke" generation can topple statues of John A Macdonald, but deface a nazi monument and you are guilty of "hate crimes":

The Nation:

Canada’s Nazi Monuments
Why does Canada have not one but several memorials to Nazi collaborators? And why, when statues are toppling all over the world, have Canadian Jewish groups remained silent?
.

....
The monument in question is a cenotaph honoring members of the SS Galichina division of the Waffen-SS, the Nazi party’s military branch whose long list of war crimes includes the Holocaust. The pillar, which is located in a Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville, Ontario, was vandalized with the words “Nazi war monument” sometime around June 21. Early in the investigation, the police classified the vandalism as a “hate crime,” meaning the SS members are the ones who were victims of hate here.

In response to David Pugliese of the Ottawa Citizen, the Halton Regional police spokesman stated, “This incident occurred to a monument and the graffiti appeared to target an identifiable group.” The fact that the “identifiable group” in question is an SS division didn’t seem to matter....

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/

I think the monuments should be preserved as artifacts of history but that they should be placed in gardens of regret with explanations of why they were honoured and why they are now dishonoured. They could be displayed within botanical gardens or large parks. It would be a good way to learn of the wrongs of the past and the notion of national guilt and shame not just pride.  

And if those gardens of regret actually result in  pragmatic things like drinkable water, equitable spending on public education and healthcare, etc. we can totally get behind it.

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