Journal de Montreal and Anglos

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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Depending on the company you keep,of course you're not literally going to be laughed out of the room. But be sure there's some internal laughing.

Still good to know.

Do you feel like Parisian French is really the same as English as spoken 400-1000 years ago, though?  Don't people in Paris speak Parisian French right now?  Sure, if someone walked up to me and said "Doubt thou the stars are fire, Doubt that the sun doth move. Doubt truth to be a liar, But never doubt I love." that might seem a bit odd.  But if someone who learned English in Britain calls french fries "chips" and potato chips "crisps" I'm not going to have to bite my own cheek to stifle a laugh.  That's just so unbelievably smug.

The English in the UK is more complicated than just 'chips' or 'crisps' A lot of dialects. In fact an Englishman can determine what  part of England someone lives in just from the accent which to those not living in the UK would never notice. Clichés and terms would fly over the heads of North Americans. Maybe not you,but surely many others.

I'd love to hear you pronounce 'Longeuil' or 'Beloeil'. You'd be outed as an anglophone immediately.

But hey,the guy from T.O. schools the guy whose only lived the Québec experience for a half century.

THAT is smug. UNBELIEVABLY smug.

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I'd love to hear you pronounce 'Longeuil' or 'Beloeil'. You'd be outed as an anglophone immediately.

Ya, I get that.

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But hey,the guy from T.O. schools the guy whose only lived the Québec experience for a half century.

THAT is smug. UNBELIEVABLY smug.

If I'm "schooling" you about anything, Alan, it's about being the guy from Ontario.  Who (I understand) was taught the wrong French.

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No one will laugh, inside or outside, at a genuine attempt to speak French even with a Parisenne accent unless it appears that you are choosing to speak that way because you think you are better than French Quebecers.

Trust me, nobody from outside of Quebec, trying to speak the French they learned years ago in Grade 11, is doing so because they think they know French better than someone from Quebec.

There's no reason to misspell Longueuil either.

Unionist wrote:

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Correct. And that hostility is a true reflection of historical reality. When I arrived in Québec, industrial workplaces which were 90% francophone Quebecers were still going through the throes of not only making French the language of work, but "allowing" unilingual francophones to get promotions and other opportunities. The Quiet Revolution, followed by Bill 101 and similar measures, represented real liberation of a nation on so many levels. It was a pleasure to see.

I never thought about it but you are right. It was great to live through. I do feel the people of Quebec were betrayed by the sovereignty movement dropping social justice which was an integral part of the Quiet Revolution. The fight was not simply to replace English overlords with French overlords. The rebellion was against the Church and government who were in collusion as well as the English business establishment. The French schools were run by the Catholic Church which is partly why immigrants chose the Protestant/non-denominational schools which were English.

Unionist wrote:

 But nothing close to the ignorant anti-Québec colonial attacks that we have to put up with, and which continue (in my humble opinion) to be the sole argument for those who advocate that Québec cannot thrive and enjoy sovereignty within a Canadian federation. 

The attacks are few and come mostly from comment trolls and right wingers. Since 1995 I also think that Canada isn't willing to have it held over their heads anymore so there is a bit of "if you want to go go" attitude. They aren't going to beg forever. 

It drives me nuts that politicians keep stirring the pot. Everything is going fine in terms of francophones, anglophones and allophones. French is the undisputed language of Quebec. There is no need to prevent francophones from going to English colleges. They aren't going to lose their French. You can bet all the politicians kids speak English. It's not like they are trying to poach French students. 

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/09/09/controversy-in-quebec-as-...

English junior colleges are in such a delicate position that some of them have an unwritten agreement with the Quebec government to avoid advertising their programs in francophone media or directly recruiting in French high schools unless specifically invited to do so.

During a convention this weekend, Parti Quebecois delegates will debate and possibly vote on a resolution to cut funding to English colleges, known as CEGEPs, because they are attracting too many non-anglophones....

“There are lots of practices that are just conflict avoidance,” he said. “If you get a message from the minister saying this is not what they want you to do — don’t do it. It’s not like Dawson needs more students.”

In fact, English schools like Dawson aren’t able to recruit as many students as they can because enrolment is capped, unlike in the French system, Chambers said....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-bill-101-40th-anniversary-...

"What I find that doesn't make sense is that it's like 'Go in French, go in French, go in French,'" said Dawson College student Félicia Cà, daughter of a francophone Québecois mother and a French and Creole-speaking father from Guinea-Bissau.

"But then when you go to get a job" — she says with hands on hips — "it's like 'You don't have your English?' and it's like you don't even allow me to have my English."

Protecting French as the language of work and public life is an admirable goal but there is a fine line between that and infringing on the rights of citizens to learn another language. They want only the upper classes to be able to access English education. A unilingual Quebec is a captive citizenship/workforce.

As noted the CEGEPS are not recruiting francophones and they are at capacity and capped by funding. That's still not enough to stop francophones from getting in. I think that's going way too far. It is almost ghettoizing poor and even middle class francophones because you can be sure the ones getting in are the ones with money and from the cities. 

Quebec politics is way more complex from the inside than the outside. Lots of different agendas exist within the sovereignty movement and those who support it. To see the sovereignty movement as just a grand liberation movement is simplistic. The Quiet Revolution is still buried in there but like everywhere else the politicians have their own agendas.

As a bit of an offside, I lived through the October Crisis and it feels to me like history is being rewritten. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis

The Quebec government also requested military aid to the civil power, and Canadian Forces deployed throughout Quebec; they acted in a support role to the civil authorities of Quebec.[1]

At the time, opinion polls throughout Canada, including in Quebec, showed widespread support for the use of the War Measures Act.[2] The response, however, was criticized at the time by prominent politicians such as René Lévesque and Tommy Douglas.[3]

The people of Quebec, and Canada, and the premier of the province and the mayor of the city all wanted military help. There had been bombs in mail boxes. Terrorism was rare back then. It was bizarre, surreal. I remember how shocked everyone was and the worry over what might follow. Would there be more kidnappings? More bombs? Bigger bombs? Everyone was afraid not just anglophones. 

If Trudeau had refused Quebec's request what do you think the result would have been? 

Pondering wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

I would change Yvan Lambert's Dorion Suit line with 'More hassles' and have him work here and say clearly for all to see and hear,'More assles' And that would hit the nail on the head about a lot of babblers.

LOL, well you just proved you live here. Dorion Suits. LOL

Sizes up to 64...Incredible!

Well it didn't seem like it. I make typos and grammatical errors hundreds of times here. I try to re-read what I post to correct these errors but I can't catch all of them. I never hear a peep about those mistakes.

I found it strange and insulting that I was being piled on for making the same mistakes but in French. 

Sorry I lost all my marbles.

I apologize. I guess I'm reactionary. But not reactionary in a right wing way. I'm quite easily triggered and lose my temper easily as well.

I've made a lot of enemies here which is too bad. For the most part,we're all on the same team.

pietro_bcc wrote:

I have to admit that my initial thoughts as to the motivation of these articles was wrong. It wasn't some 3 dimensional chess to turn anglophones against the Liberals. Its as simple as the Journal de Montreal being tired of slapping around the Muslim community so they went back to their old favorite punching bag.

Its just comical that they have these out of touch commentators, not a single anglophone among them talking about what the anglophone community believes. And that the most recent example they can list of an anglophone that they believe represents the views of the average anglophone is Mordecai Richler who died 17 years ago. These people should actually take the time to meet an anglo and join the rest of us in the new millenium.

But they do represent a segment of the population that thinks the way they do. 

From what I have heard, the French spoken in the Hexagon is called Metropolitan French. 

The vast majority of people in Montreal have been welcoming to me. I'll continue on in French until they say something I cannot fathom. Then I give them a very American "Huh?" and immediately they switch to English. When that little piece of business is done with, we revert to French. 
 

Honouring a couple of non-francophone Quebec stars does not negate the following:

In recounting the history of Quebec and Canada, the new course promotes a narrow nationalist perspective and homogenized view of Quebec, largely ignoring the contributions and hardships of cultural groups and indigenous peoples. The English community, for its part, is mostly referenced in the context of conflict with francophones, and appears largely monolithic....

In response to an outcry after details about the course became public last year, some tweaks have been made, mostly to improve the quality and quantity of the content related to indigenous people. Almost nothing was done to address other serious omissions. The contributions made to this province by members of the Jewish, Italian, Greek, Haitian and other minority cultural communities are made invisible. A student who does not know any better might be left with the impression that the many Quebecers whose ancestry is neither indigenous, French nor English all arrived yesterday afternoon. And this misimpression stands to play a part in forming future attitudes about who is, and is not, really a Quebecer.

This is a genuine threat. This is what francophone students are being taught. Do be afraid of La Meute because they are being taught  that outsiders are a threat to Quebec's cultural existence not just language. This did not just begin with this curriculum. The English have been portrayed as nothing but enemies for decades. It's a wonder there isn't more animosity. CAQ is feeding on that brand of nationalism. 

Alan is not wrong to be afraid of a CAQ win. CAQ will stir the pot of linquistic and racial divide. They have already been trying to. They are pledging to reduce immigration, prevent francophone students from going to English CEGEPs, proposed the bonjour/hi motion specifically to force Couillard to either defend or alienate the anglophone community. The closer we get to the election the more fights he will pick to create division between communities and rile up animosity against the English and immigrants.