3 random "innocent" Canadians? Sure, depends what context that you're applying the word innocent.
Did they commit any overt crimes? Probably not. Are they members of the intelligence gathering community? Very likely.
We know they spy on us, they know we spy on them. It's a big game.
China Accuses Canada of Having 'Different' Human Rights Standards When it Comes to Meng Wanzhou Arrest
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-responds-kovrig-sparpv-wanzhou-1....
"...Hua called for Canada to release Meng and for the US to withdraw its extradition order. 'We have all noticed that such moves by the Canadian and US sides have invoked severe criticism and strong opposition from people in Canada the US and other countries who value their sense of justice,' Hua said. 'The ugly nature and impact of the Meng Wanzhou case cannot be clearer."
Is Canada Huawei Arrest Attempt to Sabotage Trump Xi Talks?
https://journal-neo.org/2018/12/19/is-canada-huawei-arrest-attempt-to-sa...
"The arrest of the CFO of China's largest telecom equipment company, Huawei, carries hallmarks of deep state or behind-the-scenes sabotage designed to rupture recent progress between US President Trump and China President Xi Jinping on strategic issues. Here are some elements of the case that smack of insider sabotage from the US side, with complicity by Five Eyes member Canada..."
atsp
No surprise to find the American comprador cultural industry responding to the official propaganda offensive against China. Here's some Chinese hip hop artists giving a well deserved ass-kicking to American racist rapper Lil Pump...
Chinese Rappers are Sharing Lil Pump Diss Tracks After his Anti Asian Song Snippet (and vids)
https://www.thefader.com/2018/12/19/chinese-rappers-lil-pump-diss-tracks...
"The 'ching-chong' slur and racist eyelid gesture have triggered blowback from Chinese-speaking rappers."
Canadian Accused of Smuggling 'Enormous Amount of Drugs' into China: State Media
https://globalnews.ca/news/4795401/canadian-drug-smuggling-china-dalian/
"A Canadian citizen is set to be tried on drug charges in the Chinese port city of Dalian, Chinese state media reported amid already-heightened tensions between Beijing and Ottawa. Global Times, a tabloid operated by the Communist Party of China, identified the suspect as Robert Lloyd Schellenberg.
Schellenberg was scheduled for an appeal hearing for Saturday, Dec 29 after he was earlier found to have smuggled 'an enormous amount of drugs' into China, according to Dalian.runsky.com , a news portal operated by Dalian authorities. The Dalian government news portal stated sarcastically that Schellenberg's audacity was to be admired given that he 'actually dared to smuggle drugs into China.' It pointed out that Chinese criminal law offers 'no sympathy' for drug crimes..."
UK vs Huawei
"Ashley Banks reports on UK's ban of the Chinese company Huawei's products and the arrest of the CFO Meng Wanzhou in Canada. She speaks with former UK MP George Galloway..."
atsp
Hi North Report!
Have you ever been to communist China? If you are a Canadian citizen, and you have been there, then you would have to obtain a visa from the Chinese consulate or embassy. The Chinese government can refuse entry for whatever reason.
Heres a long winded story to help.
My wife was denied a visa from the Canadian embassy in Beijing twice! The second time she applied for the visa was to visit my father here in Canada who was dying of cancer. After she was denied, I pleaded to my mp Kyle seeback and apparently Jason kenney (minister of immigration at the time) told the staff to give my wife her pr card right away so she can visit my father. Unfortunately my father died 2 weeks before my wife’s arrival.
All our family in China were stunned to hear that Canada actually refused my wife entry into Canada to visit my dying father!
Fast forward 2 years. I had to get an expedited visa to bring specific medicines to my wife in China. I wrote a letter to the Chinese consulate in Toronto that morning explaining my story and that afternoon I picked up my passport with a fresh Chinese visa ready to board a flight!
Believe me when I tell you North Report, the Chinese have more rights than Canadians! Seen it with my own eyes. Articles like the one you posted from the Vancouver star is nothing more than lies to help Justin and his merry band of liberal shit for brains imperialists！
All our family in China were stunned to hear that Canada actually refused my wife entry into Canada to visit my dying father!
Fast forward 2 years. I had to get an expedited visa to bring specific medicines to my wife in China. I wrote a letter to the Chinese consulate in Toronto that morning explaining my story and that afternoon I picked up my passport with a fresh Chinese visa ready to board a flight!
Might a difference be that, in the case of your wife coming to Canada, nobody's physical well-being was at stake(IOW there is nothing she could have done to improve your father's condition), whereas in the case of you going to China, you were bringing a Chinese citizen medicine that was(I'm assuming) very important for her health?
Or maybe Canadians are just bigger jerks than the Chinese when it comes to bereavement travel. It's kinda hard to tell from one set of anecdotes that doesn't compare two equivalent situations, or provide the reasons for the decisions made by the respective governments.
I’ve been to PRC a few times, my partner has been several. The visa process is complicated and anything but transparent.
Also, if you’re media, you are assigned an escort to keep track of who you talk to and where you go. They can and often do take your cameras and hold them until you pay a significant amount of money that you must reclaim in person after you exit the country. (Fortunately for us, we had a friend living there who was willing to act as our agent.)
I can’t speak to bereavement travel or medical expediting of visas, but I can say with confidence they are one of the most difficult countries to deal with as far as visas and customs are concerned.
It is also widely recognized that any electronic communications are monitored by the government. Last shooting we did there, our contact asked not to be credited, even though what we shot was neither controversial nor unflattering, for the most part
So, cool story, bro, but the powers that be in the PRC are a repressive regime.
Huawei, Like China Does Not Seek Global Dominance
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1134360.shtml
"The arrest of a Huawei executive in Canada last month is a reminder of how hard it is in Chinese enterprises' global push to wrestle with stumbling blocks set by Western nations. Huawei is not seeking global dominance but cooperation. So is China."
I’ve been to PRC a few times, my partner has been several. The visa process is complicated and anything but transparent.
Also, if you’re media, you are assigned an escort to keep track of who you talk to and where you go. They can and often do take your cameras and hold them until you pay a significant amount of money that you must reclaim in person after you exit the country. (Fortunately for us, we had a friend living there who was willing to act as our agent.)
I can’t speak to bereavement travel or medical expediting of visas, but I can say with confidence they are one of the most difficult countries to deal with as far as visas and customs are concerned.
It is also widely recognized that any electronic communications are monitored by the government. Last shooting we did there, our contact asked not to be credited, even though what we shot was neither controversial nor unflattering, for the most part
So, cool story, bro, but the powers that be in the PRC are a repressive regime.
Cool story? Very odd comment considering that the last coherent thing my father talked to me about 5 days before he died was if my wife made it to Canada yet. Very sad story.
I never had any issues being denied a visa to China. And by your admission, neither have you. So you had to go through some red tape. Ya so what?
The Chinese communist government is responsible for the well being of 1,400 million people. You're not!
Actually, my partner was refused a media visa. There’s a two level process, passed the first level, working with a Chinese producer and with state-employed scientists as contributors. Second level rejected it even though we had fulfilled all requirements and gave no rationale. My guess is that our subject matter was something they wish wasn’t a fact, even though we had positive things to say about their approach. It was a purely political thing. This is not uncommon, according to several Chinese filmmakers I’ve talked to - you have to be incredibly careful of not crossing constantly shifting lines in factual or documentary projects. PRC is not a country that allows freedom of speech, everyone working in media knows that
it was such a dumb thing, too We still obtained footage and talked about what they didn’t want us to, but we didn’t have the footage and interviews to talk about the up side.
its more than red tape. It’s time and money and effort on our part, trying to schedule a call for the 2 hours a day they’ll accept them, insisting on applications being hand delivered when you’re 800 km from the nearest consulate, etc. No other country we’ve shot in has given us as much difficulty over visas, applied as much scrutiny in the process - including submitting scripts as part of the process - confiscated our equipment when we had an internationally recognized carnet, or sent someone to scrutinize all our movements in the country once we arrived. And we’ve shot in a lot of places around the world.
So my point is that your story about China’s effortless and speedy visa processing, compared to a wide variety of other stories from tourists, a friend who is married to a Chinese citizen with family in PRC, a member of a Buddhist group who goes regularly, and a large number of media people from either side of that border, seems to be an anomaly. Certainly no one else I’ve talked to has spent any time extolling the benevolence of their visa department.
ETA: Right, they are restrictive of free speech for the well-being of the people. They don’t let their scientists be part of the global community for the well-being of the people. They make sure you have a “film spy” follow media types everywhere because we might... well, not sure.
Fuck that noise. It’s got nothing to do with well-being of citizens and everything to do with repressive control of them and anything that might be said about the government.
ETA: Right, they are restrictive of free speech for the well-being of the people. They don’t let their scientists be part of the global community for the well-being of the people. They make sure you have a “film spy” follow media types everywhere because we might... well, not sure.
Fuck that noise. It’s got nothing to do with well-being of citizens and everything to do with repressive control of them and anything that might be said about the government.
As it is done everywhere -- repression is done more through threat and self censorship than directly. When direct it is to encourage others to behave - so punitive to encourage self censorship more than to address the present "violation" of whatever they do not want...
Not at all suggesting the Chinese are alone in doing this by any means but I reject suggestions they do not do it. There are those bent on trying to argue for a form of Chinese exceptionalism but this is what states do. And states that do not have to worry about open competative elections where the people can vent their unhappiness on decision-makers tend to do it more. This is not about history, culture etc. It is what states do to the degree they can get away with.
In some places it is much more subtle. Have a look around you in Canada: here you can find example of the state not directly prohibiting something but instead making it just a little harder for you to do it so fewer people do. Even happens with voting - this we call vote suppression. It is a numbers game: you do not want to be called out for making it impossible so just make it very difficult. Of course in Canada we have competing parties (even if they are similar) so that each one gets to be a little worried about the people.
The Chinese, for their part, are not that happy with media visitors so they may make it harder for them than they might for someone else who is engaged in an activity the government is more favourable to -- like spending money there.
As far as repression goes -- I prefer a country whose government is more worried about the people than one where the people are more worried about the government.
Complicating matter is of course political culture to the point where engagement in politics is different both in the way it appears and volume. Power and politics should not be expected to look the same in all countries. However, I still think that China is a country, one of many, where the power is less concerned about the people than the people are about it. Most people will of course behave such that they won't think about it. And that is also the international condition. You don't notice a freedom being missing until you want it. This is true everywhere. Countrieswith more competative elections develop more sophistication about how powers may suppress.
Time bandit wrote
ETA: Right, they are restrictive of free speech for the well-being of the people.
Isnt that rich, a Canadian telling us what’s best for the Chinese People’s Chinese people simply have more rights than the Canadians
Sounds like you need China more than China needs you! Heres some advice, don’t go to China
In China you can look at their government structure and determine who is most likely actually making the major decisions affecting its citizens. You may have little say in who those people are but you can vote for local governments and join the party that does rule the country. In Canada we get to vote every few years for politicians who say one thing to get elected and then do something else. When major decisions like buying a pipeline or funding LFG projects are made Canadians have little idea who was in the room making those decisions. Of course if one wants to delude themselves they could believe that we actually debate those decisions in the H of C.
Canada like China has a very active secret service that spies onb its own people. We believe the Chinese are better at it but the reality for even a sparsely populated country like Canada is that it is impossible to monitor all communications between citizens because of the sheer numbers. The same limits apply in spades to China. I think that both governments regularily monitor citizens that have so far committed no crimes but are suspected of being dissidents. In the Red Scare days that included everyone on the left like Tommy Douglas. In the modern era does anyone on this board think that our spy agencies do not monitor both indigenous and environmental activists.
If I want to go to the US to make a documentary I better not let a border guard know that I smoke pot even if I am going to a state where it is legal. That would give the border guard under the US rule of law the right to deny entry and seize my stuff. If a foreigner wanted to make a film in the US about something that is potentially controversial does anyone think that spooks from either one of the numerous government spy agencies or corporate spy agencies would not be monitoring. The various spy agencies in the US spend upwards of 120 billion a year but they are not monitoring foreign journalists. LMAO
atsp
I think that both governments regularily monitor citizens that have so far committed no crimes but are suspected of being dissidents.
Evidently their "Social Credit" surveillance program extends to pretty much anyone who works in a city, uses the internet, etc. And to their credit, their facial recognition systems are apparently second to none.
K, no border guard in the US has taken my cameras. They typically don’t ask me about pot, and I don’t need a visa. I’ve made docs critical of US policy and other sensitive subjects, and I’ve always been up front on what I’m doing. They’ve never demanded a script, shooting list or sent an escort to make sure I mind my ps and qs. In fact, they’ve allowed my crew into the Pentagon, despite my socialist leanings - and yes, they checked. Much as US customs and immigration can be a pain in the ass, they’re much more open than the PRC.
I’d also like to point out that I did not say other governments don’t monitor journalists, but the degrees to which they do varies and so do methods
Theres a big difference between noting you’re there and assigning an agent to accompany you. Nobody but the PRC does that.
Ultimately, you’re going to think what you think, so it makes no difference that I’ve actually personally had some experience with this.
but no one here that I am aware of is saying that Canada nor the USA does not have any themselves
No one needs to. What you're observing is called "whataboutism" or "whataboutery". Perhaps you've seen it on babble once or twice before?
North report wrote
What can’t someone share their experiences without getting their head ripped off
Dont go to China my ass
You’re welcome!
Sounds like you need China more than China needs you! Heres some advice, don’t go to China
No current plans to, but that’s a pretty sad and drastic solution. Despite the difficulties getting there, I’ve enjoyed my time there, appreciated the food, culture, people and history. It’s also worth noting that things have tightened up under Xi.
Thirteen Canadians Have Been Detained in China Since Huawei Executive's Arrest, Says Ottawa
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-thirteen-canadians-deta...
"Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou, now detained in Canada, is the latest victim of US imperial power. At least 26 US and foreign banks have paid fines of billions of dollars for violating US sanctions on Iran, but none of their executives have been arrested and threatened with 30 year prison terms.
In launching a trade war with China, challenging Chinese sovereignty to trade with Iran and holding Meng Wanzhou as a hostage or bargaining chip in these disputes, the US is displaying a dogged determination to keep expanding its imperial ambitions..."
The Hidden Structure of US Empire
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/04/the-hidden-structure-of-u-s-empire/
"Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou, now detained in Canada, is the latest victim of US imperial power. At least 26 US and foreign banks have paid fines of billions of dollars for violating US sanctions on Iran, but none of their executives have been arrested and threatened with 30 year prison terms.
In launching a trade war with China, challenging Chinese sovereignty to trade with Iran and holding Meng Wanzhou as a hostage or bargaining chip in these disputes, the US is displaying a dogged determination to keep expanding its imperial ambitions..."
The Hidden Structure of US Empire
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/04/the-hidden-structure-of-u-s-empire/
It's a good article. Just a shame that the author couldn't write more than two or three coherent sentences in a row.
I had to really struggle to make it through to the end. :(
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Really NR Bloomberg quoting a former Trump official. Thanks for the progressive debate on an interesting subject.
Dp
atsp
Planet Earth absolutely needs another tin pot dictator like Xi who appoints himself Leader for life
Yikes!!!
Thanks for the Bloomberg article North Report! I’m sure the imperialists megaphone has a few words of wisdom?
Cut out from NR link:
The detentions are in apparent retaliation for Canada's arrest of high-tech executive Meng Wanzhou at the request of the United States.
China never said these two were detained as retaliation. Canadian corporate media is attempting to belittle the Chinese state in an awkward attempt to protect Canadian liberals acting as the US imperialist proxy.
Cut out from NR link:
The detentions are in apparent retaliation for Canada's arrest of high-tech executive Meng Wanzhou at the request of the United States.
China never said these two were detained as retaliation. Canadian corporate media is attempting to belittle the Chinese state in an awkward attempt to protect Canadian liberals acting as the US imperialist proxy.
Sucks when your propaganda is not perfectly aligned:
"The detentions are signs that relations between China and Canada may dramatically deteriorate if Ottawa continues to serve as a US pawn by detaining a Chinese citizen, Chinese analysts said on Thursday. China has clearly stated several times its position on Meng's case, and warned that Canada will face "grave consequences" if the country does not immediately release Meng."
The source is the Global Times -- which is produced by the People's Daily in English -- this is state run media.
But you are right in a way. Reading the article you will see that the Chinese are answering this in a very slippery way: they are making sure you see the connection and understand it but oh so careful to be a little less than direct. Of course it is clear what the point is considering that this is state media in an article about Meng talking about the arrested Canadians.
You going to deny or say oopsie?
You write some real stupid things Sean in Ottawa! Of course there’s going to be consequences for Canada. Also for the government of Canada, the liberals. But perhaps with enough corporate media bs, their asses can be pulled out of the fire.
You write some real stupid things Sean in Ottawa! Of course there’s going to be consequences for Canada. Also for the government of Canada, the liberals. But perhaps with enough corporate media bs, their asses can be pulled out of the fire.
Come on now -- that's the best you can do?
This is State media making the exact connection you are attacking NR for raising.
I don't think you are stupid. I think you are purposefuly full of BS in order to promote propaganda.
Meng WanZhou Ankle Monitor
https://twitter.com/MengwanzhouB/status/1080751722606166016
"OMG, how much longer [are] we to be held hostage in this depressing, God forsaken Country?"
Canada Won't Bring Up Issue of Detainees on China Visit (and vid)
https://globalnews.ca/video/4817607/canada-wont-bring-up-issue-of-detain...
"A political storm could be brewing for a group of Canadian officials heading to China. They hope to build better relations as tensions grow between the two countries, and that visit won't involve China's detention of two Canadian men, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor..."
The classic guilty Canucklhead Uriah Heep approach. Just be nice and pretend it didn't happen. And well-coached by Freeland's Global Affairs too so heaven help us...
You write some real stupid things Sean in Ottawa! Of course there’s going to be consequences for Canada. Also for the government of Canada, the liberals. But perhaps with enough corporate media bs, their asses can be pulled out of the fire.
Come on now -- that's the best you can do?
This is State media making the exact connection you are attacking NR for raising.
I don't think you are stupid. I think you are purposefuly full of BS in order to promote propaganda.
Thanks for the great tone to the debate Sean.
Right, the problem is Sean's tone...
atsp
Really North Report? That’s your comparison?
Trudeau Enlists Trump to Seek Release of Canadians Detained by China
https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/01/07/trudeau-enlists-trum...
"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's office says President Donald Trump has agreed to 'continue' to seek the release of two Canadians believed to be arbitrarily detained in China...."
Head office to handle. Corrupt clown conducts foreign affairs for inept fop.
Pulled out of the link NDPP provided above
Conservative foreign affairs critic Erin O’Toole said in an interview the PMO release is a clear attempt to show that Canada was obliged under extradition law to act on the U.S. request, and to suggest the comments by Trump were damaging and unfortunate.
“I think a call with the president on all these things is always good,” said O’Toole. “But the fact that he hasn’t made that leader-to-leader call with the Chinese president (Xi Jinping) causes concern, because we’ve been asking for that since mid-December.”
“And he (Trudeau) is treating this as a consular case when it isn’t a consular situation at all. This is a state-to-state dispute. It’s clearly not going well and if he called President Trump on it, he should call President Xi as well.”
So Justin isn't calling Jin Ping hey? He feels more comfortable calling Trump. Justin is a big failure. Only in a western democracy you would get Trump and Justin working together!
New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/huawei-iran-syria-meng-china-1.4970107
I'm very curious to know where Reuters gets these magical detective powers to find private documents and make them public?
Canadians Support Ottawa's Decision to Arrest Huawei Executive, Poll Shows
https://www.globeandmail.com/politics/article-canadians-support-ottawas-...
No surprise. Garbage in, garbage out.
New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/huawei-iran-syria-meng-china-1.4970107I'm very curious to know where Reuters gets these magical detective powers to find private documents and make them public?
Well, the article said "corporate filings and other documents". Doesn't "corporate filing" mean something has been submitted to the government? So maybe it's a matter of public record?
A weird question to the poll: I do not have a problem with the Canadian government arrest of Meng becuase I think that it was not a government decision but rather a process of law according to a treaty. If I understood this to be a government "decision," I would be very much opposed.
To the extent that the people think this is a choice of government, perhaps the government needs to explain that it is not. Canada should not be doing the foreign policy bidding of Trump with respect to China or any other country. The only rationale for the arrest from a Canadian point of view is a reciprocal treaty where the government of Canada did not have a choice to make.
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