Corbyn’s Labour and the path to power

956 posts / 0 new

Sun, 2019-01-20 01:06

Ken Burch

epaulo13 wrote:

It's why he can't push for a second referendum, and why the push for a second referendum has been led, within the party, by his enemies

..this is only partially true. there is a greater debate going on that includes remain as an option. many inside the party want remain. the enemies are just trying to manipulate that. they are not leading it.

..yes labour leadership needs to watch the polls..be careful with what they choose and when. paul mason says let the membership choose as there is more than 200 constituency offices wanting labour to sign on to remain. they are trying to force a conference to decide that.

Thank you, epaulo. You have a far wiser, calmer take on all of this than I do.

Sun, 2019-01-20 06:48

#253

nicky

Another inconvenient fact for Corbyn from today’s Times ( yes i know a Murdoch paper but these are Lzbour’s own statistics:

150,000 members desert Labour in Brexit backlash

Jeremy Corbyn’s stance on a second vote is being blamed for a tail-off in support said to have cost the party £6m

Sun, 2019-01-20 07:19

(Reply to #253) #254

josh

epaulo13 wrote:

Remain lost, get over it and move on.

..this is not what is being said. mason is talking about process. meaning the constituencies that want remain get behind the plan laid out by starmer. if a vote comes before an election or deal for a soft brexit there will be a revisiting of which position to take then. if the polls are right that people in the gb want remain labour better not be on the wrong side of that vote. it could loose them the election.

To whom? The Conservatives, who want to leave?

Sun, 2019-01-20 08:03

#255

epaulo13

..there is already talk that any vote or election is going to be ugly. all the racist shit, dark money, hyperbole and outright lies that came with the last ref will resurface. capital will be out in force to defeat the labour platform. any votes split off to other parties will be a loss to labour. don't take my word for it though. you keep believing that the success of labour lies with leaving the eu.

Sun, 2019-01-20 08:12

#256

NDPP

Pro-EU Group Calls For New Referendum

https://twitter.com/damian_from/status/1086749628924682240

"The results of this polling, which was commissioned by a pro-EU organisation, means that any Labour MP who campaigns for a 'People's Vote' is campaigning AGAINST UK Labour."

Sun, 2019-01-20 11:51

(Reply to #256) #257

josh

epaulo13 wrote:

..there is already talk that any vote or election is going to be ugly. all the racist shit, dark money, hyperbole and outright lies that came with the last ref will resurface. capital will be out in force to defeat the labour platform. any votes split off to other parties will be a loss to labour. don't take my word for it though. you keep believing that the success of labour lies with leaving the eu.

Not true. But deciding to become a pro-remain party will guarantee their defeat in the next election.

Sun, 2019-01-20 16:32

#258

Pogo

Whatever the decision there are going to be a lot of hard choices. A general election will go a long way toward providing a mandate to make decisions. After the election I think the electorate will be more accepting to decisive actions if only out of fatigue. Labour is smart to let the Conservatives, the Government, take most of the flack for the current impass.

Sun, 2019-01-20 12:46

(Reply to #258) #259

epaulo13

josh wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..there is already talk that any vote or election is going to be ugly. all the racist shit, dark money, hyperbole and outright lies that came with the last ref will resurface. capital will be out in force to defeat the labour platform. any votes split off to other parties will be a loss to labour. don't take my word for it though. you keep believing that the success of labour lies with leaving the eu.

Not true. But deciding to become a pro-remain party will guarantee their defeat in the next election.

..pro remain doesn't mean pro eu. they are not the same thing. labour needs to have a position that can somewhat unify a divided country. a position that can be presented to the population be it an election or vote.

ps: no one can guarantee any position.

Sun, 2019-01-20 14:34

#260

josh

Pro-remain doesn’t mean pro-EU?

Sun, 2019-01-20 15:00

#261

epaulo13

pro remain doesn't mean pro eu.

..you can address the legitimate issues that led to working folk to vote leave. while remaining. a somewhat unifying position.

..from the brexit thread

Socialism beyond borders

quote:

A different Europe

In today’s context of a new ‘common predicament’ – of austerity and the corporate-driven market – this socialist European tradition needs to be retrieved in a modern, pluralist form. Certainly, it is needed to counter the decline of social democratic parties across Europe, where only the Portuguese Socialists under António Costa (in coalition with parties to its left) and Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour, with its unique success in re-building the party’s membership and voter base, have bucked the trend.

His fullest statements on Europe – shockingly under-reported – clarify that being in the EU does not necessarily prevent public intervention in industry, and show a well-informed commitment to European social regulation. In February 2018, for example, he said we should not abandon ‘rules that have served us well, supporting our industrial sectors, protecting workers and consumers and safeguarding the environment’.

Corbyn himself, while opposed to the neoliberalism of the current EU, has also pledged himself to work for an ‘anti-austerity Europe’, most recently at the Durham Miners’ Gala. This was well-received even in the predominantly Brexit-voting north east. And it was more than a rhetorical flourish: it is a signal that Corbyn is more pro-European than the press conveys, albeit not in conventional terms.

Sun, 2019-01-20 15:34

#262

josh

The EU, and it’s predecessor common market, is inherently neo-liberal. Holding out hope that it will change and become social democratic is more disengenous than anything pro-Brexit forces said in the lead up to the referendum. Why supposed leftists are so pro-EU continues to amaze me.

Sun, 2019-01-20 16:16

#263

epaulo13

..trying to reduce this to just hope is wildly inaccurate. but it does set you up to attack people that do support something different than leave.

Sun, 2019-01-20 16:15

#264

josh

No, it’s dealing in reality. Rather than pie in the sky to get people to vote to stay in, and then slamming the door shut. The reality that leads a lot of people to want to get out.

Sun, 2019-01-20 16:22

#265

epaulo13

..the reality is corbyn himself is saying it can be done. but not only him. many in the party are saying it. many in mmentum are saying it. paul mason is saying it.

Sun, 2019-01-20 16:27

#266

WWWTT

Here’s some needed perspective

https://www.communist-party.org.uk/britain/2486-communists-demand-early-general-election-and-march-29-eu-exit.html

Sun, 2019-01-20 17:40

(Reply to #266) #267

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Another inconvenient fact for Corbyn from today’s Times ( yes i know a Murdoch paper but these are Lzbour’s own statistics:

150,000 members desert Labour in Brexit backlash

Jeremy Corbyn’s stance on a second vote is being blamed for a tail-off in support said to have cost the party £6m

Mason't article above says he's open to a second vote. Why isn't it enough for Labour to push for that in the order Mason's article lists? May's not going to allow a second vote as long as the Tories are in power anyway, and the votes aren't there in the Commons to force a second vote against May's will.

If Labour was pushing for the second vote NOW, all that would come of it would be a split in the party. Which is clearly what you want, because all YOU care about is replacing Corbyn by a small-c conservative, which is what "Labour moderates" are.

Sun, 2019-01-20 18:39

#268

josh

And since when is Mason and the Guardian Corbyn fans.

Wed, 2019-01-30 17:17

#269

epaulo13

The People's Assembly Against Austerity

This is a call to all those millions of people in Britain who face impoverishment and uncertainty as their wages, jobs, conditions and welfare provisions are under renewed attack by the government.

With 80% of austerity measures still to come, and with the government lengthening the time they expect cuts to last, we are calling a People’s Assembly Against Austerity to bring together campaigns against cuts and privatisation with trade unionists in a movement for social justice. We aim to develop a strategy for resistance to mobilise millions of people against the Con Dem government.

The assembly will provide a national forum for anti-austerity views which, while increasingly popular, are barely represented in parliament. A People’s Assembly can play a key role in ensuring that this uncaring government faces a movement of opposition broad enough and powerful enough to generate successful co-ordinated action, including strike action. The assembly will be ready to support co-ordinated industrial action and national demonstrations against austerity, if possible synchronising with mobilisations across Europe....

Wed, 2019-01-30 17:20

#270

epaulo13

..from an email.

Following a successful London launch at the end of 2018 local People's Assembly groups have been planning and organising "Britain is Broken: We Can't Afford the Tories" events as part of a Nationwide speaking tour.

So far we have events happening in the following locations:

Northampton 16 Feb
Pembrokeshire 2nd March
Nottingham 13th March
Newcastle 12th March
Cambridge 16th March
Brent 21st March
Milton Keynes TBC
Brighton TBC
Bristol TBC
Doncaster TBC
Sommerton and Frome TBC

The tour will highlight the core domestic politics themes of health, homes, jobs and education that have been too often obscured by mainstream media programming skewed in favour of the big Brexit debate. In this is an implicit acceptance that, ultimately, in or out of the EU, people are resigned to falling living standards as the system trundles on in an eventual race to the bottom.
It doesn't have to be this way.

The Britain is Broken tour is so important and we urge you to get involved.

Right now we need a reinvigorated anti austerity movement at every level in society. Local People Assembly groups have been at the forefront of challenging the cuts that are happening in our schools, NHS, local authorities and highlighting issues such as housing and homelessness, universal credit, precarious jobs and much more.

Local People's Assembly groups have had a big impact. In Milton Keynes, until recently the poster boy for homelessness in the UK, the People's Assembly organised public meetings and protests; demanding the council take action. As a result MK council implemented a "Housing First" policy and more than 100 street homeless people, including some who had been on the streets for years, have now been housed. Crucially, though, the activity has led to Labour councillors joining, and instigating, demonstrations for the first time over issues like workers rights at Amazon and in opposition the the far right. The significance of this ripple effect is hard to overstate. Similar organisation is happening in local groups all over the country. It's this that we now need to strengthen further, forging links between activists, trade unions, community groups and elected officials. The People's Assembly is perfectly positioned to strengthen and build networks and communication between campaigns.

Strong social movements and political action led by local people can and do make change. They give a voice to the voiceless and embolden politicians.

The "Britain is Broken: We Can't Afford the Tories" tour will inject a fresh sense of purpose into the movement and provide much needed focus on critical issues.

Thu, 2019-01-31 06:53

#271

nicky

More polling for the Corbynistas to ignore:

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/01/31/corbyns-approval-ratings-fall-from-from-a-net-minus-3-to-a-net-minus-32-in-just-one-year/

Thu, 2019-01-31 08:07

#272

josh

Last two published polls have Labour ahead. Something for Blairites to consider.

Thu, 2019-01-31 17:00

#273

nicky

The last series of polls give minute leads to either the Labour party or teh Conservatives, despite the Conservatives' Brexit mess.

That the Conservatives are still competitive can only be attribute dto Corbyn's woeful "leadership." With a differnt leader Labour would be miles ahead.

Date(s)
conductedPolling organisation/clientAreaSample sizeCon Lab Lib Dem SNP Plaid UKIP GreenOthersLead

30 JanSurvation/Daily MailUK1,02938%39%9%3%N/A4%2%4%1%16–18 JanICM GB2,04639%40%9%3%0%5%3%1%1%16–18 JanOpinium/The ObserverGB2,00637%40%7%5%1%7%4%1%3%16–17 JanComRes/Sunday ExpressGB2,03138%37%10%3%1%6%3%2%1%10–17 JanNumber Cruncher Politics GB1,03041%39%8%3%1%4%2%1%2%14–15 JanComRes/Daily ExpressGB2,01037%39%8%

Thu, 2019-01-31 17:16

#274

Ken Burch

Labour would not be any stronger with an non-left wing leader. There's no large group of people in the UK who want Labour to ever blur the differences again or ever start doing what you'd have cheered them on for doing after the 2015 election and start supporting almost all the Tory governments. Nobody wants a change of government in name only there. Dump Corbyn and everyone in the UK under 30 instantly becomes a nonvoter for life, with nobody from any other demographics coming in to replace them.

Thu, 2019-01-31 17:28

#275

Ken Burch

Besides, the only fair test of Corbyn's actual possible range of appeal would be if the bitter end antiCorbynite MPs-the last 160 supporters of the Third Way in all of Britain, and also for all practical purposes the last 160 defenders of the Iraq War in the entire party-would finally accept that the leadership question was settled in 2017 and agree, once and for all, to stop briefing against him and stop trying to force him out. Since a snap election could happen at any time, and since there is no chance that anyone imposed to lead the party if Corbyn even could be forced out could possibly unite the party(no Labour moderate can) or fight for the working and kept-from-working poor(no Labour moderate has ever cared about those people) would you now agree that the fight to dump Jeremy needs to stop? That, with the future of the pitiful remnants of the social welfare state and what remains of the NHS itself on the line, there is no good reason to STILL be trying to replace Jeremy with the sort of leader who could never be popular and who could never get anyone under 45 or so to the polls? I mean, it's been years since even YOU have thought of an alternate leader the antiCorbynites would prefer who could possibly be worth supporting. Everyone you would prefer...Yvette Cooper, Chuka Umunna, Liz Kendall, that guy who'd been a paratrooper even though that wouldn't give the man any special appeal anymore...would be a disaster in the job.

Thu, 2019-01-31 17:29

#276

NDPP

Vote Labour

https://twitter.com/damian_from/status/1090729302432382981

"A recent survey commissioned by a pro-EU group shows Labour would lose 3,000,000 votes if it tries to frustrate Brexit. You are a Labour MP. Could you explain why you are promoting and supporting a campaign which damges the electability of UK Labour?"

Sat, 2019-02-02 15:51

#277

nicky

corbyn's Brexit stand is having a devastating effect on Labour's support.

From today's Gurdian:

Labour’s support fell from 40% in the last poll to 34%, while Tory support went up from 37% to 41%. It comes despite continued infighting within the government over Brexit, including a record parliamentary defeat for the prime minister over her proposed deal.

The latest Opinium poll suggests that Labour has lost support from both sides of the Brexit debate. Labour has dropped five points among both remainers and leavers. For the first time in since the election, less than half of remainers (49%) would opt for Labour.

Approval for May’s handling of Brexit had increased slightly, while support for Jeremy Corbyn’s handling of the issue has slumped to an all-time low. May’s approval ratings on Brexit edged up slightly to -30%, with 25% approving and 55% disapproving. Her rating had been -33% a fortnight ago.

Meanwhile, Corbyn’s net rating on the issue is now -44%, with 16% approving and 61% disapproving. His rating was -40% in the last poll a fortnight ago. Only 42% of current Labour voters approve of the way Corbyn has responded to the government on Brexit, while a quarter (26%) disapprove.

Sat, 2019-02-02 16:01

#278

josh

Talk about outliers. Latest poll from Survation, the most accurate pollster in the last election. Labour up 1.

https://www.survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Final-Tables-Daily-Mail.xlsx

Sat, 2019-02-02 16:11

(Reply to #278) #279

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

corbyn's Brexit stand is having a devastating effect on Labour's support.

From today's Gurdian:

Labour’s support fell from 40% in the last poll to 34%, while Tory support went up from 37% to 41%. It comes despite continued infighting within the government over Brexit, including a record parliamentary defeat for the prime minister over her proposed deal.

Advertisement

The latest Opinium poll suggests that Labour has lost support from both sides of the Brexit debate. Labour has dropped five points among both remainers and leavers. For the first time in since the election, less than half of remainers (49%) would opt for Labour.

Approval for May’s handling of Brexit had increased slightly, while support for Jeremy Corbyn’s handling of the issue has slumped to an all-time low. May’s approval ratings on Brexit edged up slightly to -30%, with 25% approving and 55% disapproving. Her rating had been -33% a fortnight ago.

Meanwhile, Corbyn’s net rating on the issue is now -44%, with 16% approving and 61% disapproving. His rating was -40% in the last poll a fortnight ago. Only 42% of current Labour voters approve of the way Corbyn has responded to the government on Brexit, while a quarter (26%) disapprove.

And Labour would lose three million votes if it did what you and the rest of the right wingers want and pushed for a second vote. You know this. It's why you're determined to force Corbyn to do that. There's no progressive case for carrying on a hopeless fight to prevent Brexit. It can't BE stopped. Can you please just accept that what matters more than anything else is getting the Tories out, and that the only way to get them out is to stop trashing Corbyn at every turn? The plain and simple fact is that if the right wing got its way and forced Jeremy out, there's no one they would accept as leader who could ever connect with young voters or ever establish any personal popularity at all. Labour has nothing to gain by ever again being a party that's nonchalant about war and just fine with capitalism and austerity.

Sun, 2019-02-03 01:35

(Reply to #279) #280

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Another inconvenient fact for Corbyn from today’s Times ( yes i know a Murdoch paper but these are Lzbour’s own statistics:

150,000 members desert Labour in Brexit backlash

Jeremy Corbyn’s stance on a second vote is being blamed for a tail-off in support said to have cost the party £6m

Hey nicky, how do you feel about how well Prime Minister Thomas Mulcair has performed over the last 3 years?

Sun, 2019-02-03 01:38

(Reply to #280) #281

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
corbyn's Brexit stand is having a devastating effect on Labour's support.

From today's Gurdian:

Labour’s support fell from 40% in the last poll to 34%, while Tory support went up from 37% to 41%. It comes despite continued infighting within the government over Brexit, including a record parliamentary defeat for the prime minister over her proposed deal.

Of course Corbyn's popularity is impacted by Brexit. Nobody expected people to vote for Brexit and nobody knows what it means. Everyone is fumbling around trying to figure it out, and it has impacted the entire British political establishment. May also lost support over Brexit. Everybody is making it up as they go.

Sun, 2019-02-03 06:58

#282

nicky

Do any of you actually think that Corbyn's handling of the Brexit issue has been anything short of disasterous?

he campaigned for the leadership on accountability to the Labour Party membership and yet is ignoring the views of 80% of the mebership (and a large majority of the public) in opposing a second referendum.

A telling measurement of Labour's dilema is that although May has completely bungled Brexit , corbyn has been unable to exploit this because of his own handling of the issue.

And, although it is hard to think what it has to do with this issue, I do think, Aristotle, that Tom Mulcair would have been a fine Prime Minister, certainly our most left-wing PM ever.

Sun, 2019-02-03 07:16

#283

josh

For the umpteenth time, Corbyn has to walk a tightrope on Brexit if he wants to win the next election. Most of those in the remain camp will remain with Labour if they don’t take a LibDem type stance on the issue. But most of the 25% or so who support Brexit would abandon the party if he took that stance. And with that would go a bunch of seats in the north, and any chance to win.

And I highly doubt a Thatcher admirer like Mulcair would have been the most left-wing PM in Canadian history.

Sun, 2019-02-03 16:14

(Reply to #283) #284

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Do any of you actually think that Corbyn's handling of the Brexit issue has been anything short of disasterous?

he campaigned for the leadership on accountability to the Labour Party membership and yet is ignoring the views of 80% of the mebership (and a large majority of the public) in opposing a second referendum.

A telling measurement of Labour's dilema is that although May has completely bungled Brexit , corbyn has been unable to exploit this because of his own handling of the issue.

And, although it is hard to think what it has to do with this issue, I do think, Aristotle, that Tom Mulcair would have been a fine Prime Minister, certainly our most left-wing PM ever.

It goes without saying that none of the people you would want leading Labour in Corbyn's place would do anything remotely left-wing in government...or even win any more votes than he would.

Every remaining defender of the Iraq War, and every Labour MP who was fine with the idea of joining the Tories in voting for further cuts in the social wage, is despised by the British electorate. Most people accept that Brexit can't be stopped(the EU has made that clear) that stopping it would only have right wing consequences, since the EU can never be made to stop imposing perpetual austerity, and that that what matters more than anything is getting the Tories OUT. Why doesn't beating the Tories matter to you, nicky? Why do you care more about removing Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party than about ending Thatcherism-Blairism-Mayism?

Sun, 2019-02-03 16:23

#285

Ken Burch

And Corbyn has done a fine job leading on the issue. He engineered the most massive defeat for a government in parliamentary history two weeks ago...something no right-wing Labour leader could ever have done in the same situation...and he has held the party together when what you would have pushed for could only have irretrivably split it. He would have both had to commit to destroying Labour's chances at the next election AND abandoning his commitment to socialism to put the hopeless cause of a futile second referendum first. And if the "Labour moderates" who kept trying to remove Corbyn even DURING the 2017 election campaign, when everyone knows it's impossible to change party leaders at such a time and imposssible to unify a party enough even to make a respectable showing if it can be done, had just got behind Jeremy as leader and given him the wholehearted support every party leader is entitled to once the election had been called, Labour would be in power now and the wounds inflicted over the past decades would be well on their way to being healed, just as Labour would have a huge lead in the polls now, rather than the small but solid lead it generally holds, if only those in your wing of the party hadn't start calling the guy an antisemite when everybody knows damn well he isn't.

You should stop pretending you're even on the center-left, nicky. Only someone who wanted to make sure the Tories stayed in power forever-and pushing Labour to have a "moderate"(right-wing) leader is the same thing as keeping the Tories in power, since a Labour "moderate" wouldn't make any meaningful changes to anything, would STILL keep attacking Labour's leader at a time when everyone knows the leadership question has been settled and that no one who could possibly be put in place in the job instead of Jeremy could ever win young votes, could ever be personally popular, or could ever enunciate a vision of the future other than "it's enough to get their lot out and our lot in".

Sun, 2019-02-03 16:27

#286

Ken Burch

And as epaulo13 and others were probably about to remind you, Corbyn isn't even OPPOSED to a referendum. He's just not leading with it. Why does it have to be about pushing for the referendum before any other possiblities to satisfy you. The overwhelming majority of Labour supporters accept Labour's strategy here-it's only the far right of the party, the ones who are still trying to get someone into the leadership who will help quash any future investigation into Blair's war crimes, who are actually insisting that nothing matters more than the damn referendum. Why is the referendum more important to you than ending the Tory government, nicky?

Sun, 2019-02-03 19:06

(Reply to #286) #287

JKR

nicky wrote:

A telling measurement of Labour's dilema is that although May has completely bungled Brexit , corbyn has been unable to exploit this because of his own handling of the issue.

And May has said she won’t be leading her party in the next election. I think the next UK Conservative leader will likely be much more popular than May.

Mon, 2019-02-04 13:46

#288

epaulo13

Billy Bragg‏Verified account @billybragg

Labour members are the largest pro-Remain political movement. Rather that stomping off in a huff, members should be working together to ensure that party policy represents our current views on Brexit.

Mon, 2019-02-04 16:18

#289

epaulo13

..this was retweeted by billy bragg

Robert Peston‏Verifizierter Account @Peston

Official with access to internal figures tells me Labour membership has fallen 150,000, because the peak was 650,000, higher than many thought, and is now circa 500,000. That is steeper drop than widely reported and represents big loss of income. Corbynmania over - in part due...

..in my #269-70 posts i show the people's assembly against austerity movement working in communities. i do this as a reminder of the influence movements had during the last election. also in driving the support for corbyn and his labour platform.

..we've had for a while now brexit politics inundating the public with propaganda by self interested forces. causing confusion and distrust. come an election or another vote once again we will see movements rise up and ground folks. once again highlighting what issues are important and matter the most in communities. it will also drive up labour membership again as more and more people, epecially young people, get involved. this time though climate will play a larger role.

Tue, 2019-02-05 05:45

#290

nicky

Corbyn’s numbers continue to plummet.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/02/04/the-battle-between-lab-con-viewed-through-the-perspective-of-their-leaders-approval-ratings-since-ge2017/

I would be interested in reading how the Babble Corbynistas rationalize this.

oh, I forgot, Tom Mulcair was BAD. Therefore Corbyn is perfect.

Tue, 2019-02-05 07:58

#291

josh

Are these your greatest hits posts? Because it sure sounds like two years ago. When you claimed that Labour was heading for the worst defeat in its history, only to end up with a higher precentage of the vote than in the prior three elections.

Tue, 2019-02-05 12:23

#292

nicky

Your reply seems a little repetitive Josh.

the facts remain:

1. Labour wd have won the last election with virtually any other leader

2. Corbyn’s popularity, largely owing to his Bexit convultions is af an an tie ow.

3. For ghe same reason Labour has ost 150,000

4. If Labour wants to rdgain power Corbyn must step down

Tue, 2019-02-05 13:06

#293

josh

1. Labour wd have won the last election with virtually any other leader

Your assumptions are as poor as your predictions.

Tue, 2019-02-05 13:10

(Reply to #293) #294

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Your reply seems a little repetitive Josh.

the facts remain:

1. Labour wd have won the last election with virtually any other leader

2. Corbyn’s popularity, largely owing to his Bexit convultions is af an an tie ow.

3. For ghe same reason Labour has ost 150,000

4. If Labour wants to rdgain power Corbyn must step down

Labour can't win with a non left-wing leader, because Labour needs a massive turnout of young voters-the only new voters Labour can add, since everyone who agrees with the Tories on the economy and defense will ALWAYS vote Tory. In 2016, Corbyn-who is the most egoless leader the party has ever had-would likely have agreed to step down if only the requirement that leadership candidates be nominated by a large group of MPs had been dropped or if, at least, if the PLP had agreed to guarantee that there would be a left-wing candidate in the contest to replace Corbyn.

We both know Labour would have lost in 2017 with a leader who supported austerity and opposed prosecuting Blair for war crimes, and that THAT was the only sort of leader the anti-Corbynites would have accepted.

Why do you not push Corbyn's opponents to accept the validity of the ideas his supporters champsion, ideas which have the support of the vast majority of Labour members and supporters who WANT the party to be clearly different than the Tories.

Are you even a Labour supporter at all? There's no real difference between a "Labour moderate" and a Tory, after all.

Both want perpetual austerity. Both want perpetual war. Both hate the idea that life can ever be different. Both hate the young. Neither wants the UK to be a decent country with humane values. The Blair years proved that once and for all.

Tue, 2019-02-05 13:50

(Reply to #294) #295

Sean in Ottawa

Ken Burch wrote:

nicky wrote:

Your reply seems a little repetitive Josh.

the facts remain:

1. Labour wd have won the last election with virtually any other leader

2. Corbyn’s popularity, largely owing to his Bexit convultions is af an an tie ow.

3. For ghe same reason Labour has ost 150,000

4. If Labour wants to rdgain power Corbyn must step down

Labour can't win with a non left-wing leader, because Labour needs a massive turnout of young voters-the only new voters Labour can add, since everyone who agrees with the Tories on the economy and defense will ALWAYS vote Tory. In 2016, Corbyn-who is the most egoless leader the party has ever had-would likely have agreed to step down if only the requirement that leadership candidates be nominated by a large group of MPs had been dropped or if, at least, if the PLP had agreed to guarantee that there would be a left-wing candidate in the contest to replace Corbyn.

We both know Labour would have lost in 2017 with a leader who supported austerity and opposed prosecuting Blair for war crimes, and that THAT was the only sort of leader the anti-Corbynites would have accepted.

Why do you not push Corbyn's opponents to accept the validity of the ideas his supporters champsion, ideas which have the support of the vast majority of Labour members and supporters who WANT the party to be clearly different than the Tories.

Are you even a Labour supporter at all? There's no real difference between a "Labour moderate" and a Tory, after all.

Both want perpetual austerity. Both want perpetual war. Both hate the idea that life can ever be different. Both hate the young. Neither wants the UK to be a decent country with humane values. The Blair years proved that once and for all.

You are outlining the global problem on the left right now.

Left of centre parties the world over are facing the challenge that if you move to the centre the further left will not vote and if you move to the left the centre votes for the right -- even an extreme on the right.

From an electoral strategy it is easy to argue either for a move to the left or right -- although abandoning the search for power cedes it not to the centre but the right as the centre is now barren. Some may argue that Canada is an exception to this, a bulwark against it held up by a PM who governs in part becuase of rose-coloured support for a nostalgic view of his father. Canada may just be delayed on this trend.

I know it will infuriate many here but there is a dynamic at play: in the past, the left could tack to the centre knowing that its supporters, for the large part, would have nowhere to go. It would go just enough to the centre to gather a governing coalition. Being able to capture those on the left without a strong party to go to has been a way for the centre-left parties to hold together a constituency. Today, this is no longer possible becuase voters on the left are willing to leave even if there is no party to go to -- and they do this just by not voting.

You can argue this from both ends. You could say that by being willing to vote for none of the above by not voting, they have proven successful at pushing their parties to the left and putting a left agenda on the table when it would not have been done before. Further , the reason that left voters are unwilling to move to the centre to get that coalition is that the coalition too often behaved with regard only for the centre and right. They argue, persuasively given the concentration of wealth and popwer, that the bargain of power for watering down the left was not worth it.

Alternately, you could argue that this has split the left becuase it needs to encorporate people in the centre who are unwilling to go to the further left and so this has fractured it such that it can not bid for power and is feeding support to the extreme right. Unintended consequences. They may argue that a belief on the left actually supports this -- the one of consensus. How do the people who most believe in inclusion and consensus push the political frame to the point where their side no longer can muster a majority or even plurality in order to to win? They argue that even though the further left did not achieve its aims that they prevented the descent to the extreme right.

The you have the argument that voting is only the test and not the education. The real problem is the cultural failure to persuade enough to the better arguments. The problem here is that then this side will split between those holding individuals, the media, big money, the public each responsible for different aspects of the failure.

As politics has become more cynical and lying in social media more accepted, each person can convince themselves, not only that they are right, but that the majority of reasonable people are on their side and that those not on their side are not reasonable -- ergo it is not just a majority of reasonable people but all of them.

So as this is played out in the UK, US and Canada and elsewhere there seems to be no solution, no unifying figures and no unifying policies.

This is unfortunately, the part where I admit that the diagnosis is a lot easier than the cure. Some magical person to square the circle? Some policy we could all agree on that is not so lacking in any chance of changing anything? An electoral bounce that happens once in a while like a solar eclipse without cloud cover?

In part the problem is that political power requires compromise and this is a situation where there is no comproise on either side. Don't mistake this for a push to the right -- the right side of left parties have become adept at compromising on their right but do not even understand the concept when it comes to their left.

And there we are.

Tue, 2019-02-05 14:26

#296

nicky

Ken, has Corbyn called for Blair to be prosecuted for war crimes as you suggest?

link please

Tue, 2019-02-05 14:46

#297

josh

Left of centre parties the world over are facing the challenge that if you move to the centre the further left will not vote and if you move to the left the centre votes for the right -- even an extreme on the right.

The left has lost votes to the right--Trump, UKIP, NF--when it's moved to the middle.

Tue, 2019-02-05 15:01

(Reply to #297) #298

bekayne

nicky wrote:

Ken, has Corbyn called for Blair to be prosecuted for war crimes as you suggest?

link please

That would have been headline news all over the world had it happened.

Tue, 2019-02-05 16:35

#299

epaulo13

..an important aspect of the corbyn agenda is transformation. a transformation for climate. a transformation for economy. but one transformation that is not talked about very much is the empowerment of communities. a transformation for democracy. like the other transformations it is still in the early development stages none the less it is a move towards decentralization. why this is necessary lies with the failure of representative democracy. look at the state of the world. look at the state of our respective countries. look at the state of our provinces.

..there has been and continues to be much interest in europe for this decentralization. there were the indignado movements in spain and greece. which transformed into the municipalist movements that has spread outside of europe. most recent is the uprisings by the yellow vests in france. and finally in the near future the uprising that will come as climate conditions worsen.

..there is nowhere else to turn now, imho, as the wheels are in motion and have been for some time.

Tue, 2019-02-05 17:24

#300

montgomery

In the US now with Trump in power, the [b]Left[/b] isn't definable. Trump, who is righter than Adolph, now owns the left, while the Dems own the philosophy of the right.

Sean babbles on about how the sides divide tradionally when in fact that's no longer the case.

And now the really big concern we all should have is that Scheer can grab the hearts and minds of the leftists. And we see no warnings from the people on this board to avoid letting that happen. On the contrary, in order to be as anti-Liberal as possible, they laud praise on the Conservatives.

So can Scheer hijack the left in the same way Trump hijacked the ordinary people in his country, by feeding the people the same kind of lies?

Be cognizant of the fact that the NDP's support is just as likely to choose the 'right as they are to choose the more left Liberals.

Tue, 2019-02-05 17:29

(Reply to #300) #301

Sean in Ottawa

montgomery wrote:

In the US now with Trump in power, the [b]Left[/b] isn't definable. Trump, who is righter than Adolph, now owns the left, while the Dems own the philosophy of the right.

Sean babbles on about how the sides divide tradionally when in fact that's no longer the case.

And now the really big concern we all should have is that Scheer can grab the hearts and minds of the leftists. And we see no warnings from the people on this board to avoid letting that happen. On the contrary, in order to be as anti-Liberal as possible, they laud praise on the Conservatives.

So can Scheer hijack the left in the same way Trump hijacked the ordinary people in his country, by feeding the people the same kind of lies?

Be cognizant of the fact that the NDP's support is just as likely to choose the 'right as they are to choose the more left Liberals.

Monty1 you are acting like an asshole even if you are wearing new underwear.

Corbyn’s Labour and the path to power

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