Venezuela

josh wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

People in the country are starving to death. There's no food, inflation is set to reach 10 million percent in 2019.  Citizens are fleeing in all directions.

Should the US get involved or sit back and send thoughts and prayers. 

Should the US and other countries just throw money at them (like the 53 million Canada is pledging)? Or physically step in? 

If a country is donating millions of dollars in aid or just money do they have a right to become involved in how its used? Ensure its not lining warlords and criminals pockets?

 

In 2017 Maduro devised a plan to raise rabbits in order to feed the starving population- the only problem is that anyone with an outdoors background will tell you you can't survive on rabbit meat. You'll die, the meat is too lean. 

 

I saw photos of those demonstrators.  Didn't see anyone who looked like they were starving.

The U.S. has been involved.  Trying to bring about that starvation through economic sanction.

The whole thing is nothing more than a pretext for overthrowing a regime that won't bow down to the U.S. and the neo-liberal world order. 

Right on josh! 

Paladin did an excellent job of bringing this topic to life. 

JKR wrote:

Wasn’t the cataclysmic economic downturn in Venezuela mostly caused by the drop in oil prices?

What's your opinion JKR. Are Venezuela's problems due to the price of oil or due to US meddling?

Or how about a bit of both? Not to suggest that I would encourage the latter, just to say that it's an in between position of a sort?

JKR wrote:

montgomery wrote:

JKR wrote:

Wasn’t the cataclysmic economic downturn in Venezuela mostly caused by the drop in oil prices?

What's your opinion JKR. Are Venezuela's problems due to the price of oil or due to US meddling?

Or how about a bit of both? Not to suggest that I would encourage the latter, just to say that it's an in between position of a sort?

I think Venezuela’s current problems are predominantly caused by their country’s brand of socialism’s over-dependence on high oil prices. I think Venezuela would still be doing well if the price of oil was still higher than $100/barrel. As it is, Venezuela’s oil revenues cannot prop up Venezuela’s command economy. I think Venezuela is learning a hard lesson from not having an economy that respects the economic law of supply and demand. I think the Venezuelan government ignored basic economic principles because they were awash in oil money and now their country is paying the price.

Thanks for your opinion JKR. I read that as you believing that the US hasn't had any effect at all on Venezuela's economic misfortunes. 

I'm anxious to get into it with you but I think I'll sit back for 24 hours or so in order to hear of any good arguments against your position.

But to add a bit of fuel to the developing "fire this time": Would Cuba be the same thing in your mind? 

Paladin1 wrote:

People in the country are starving to death. There's no food, inflation is set to reach 10 million percent in 2019.  Citizens are fleeing in all directions.

Should the US get involved or sit back and send thoughts and prayers. 

Should the US and other countries just throw money at them (like the 53 million Canada is pledging)? Or physically step in? ....

Very funny/tragic. Got "Humanitarian intervention"?

The US has been VERY actively "involved" for years "throwing millions" to destroy Venzuala and bringing misery to the populace, creating a coup-friendly climate:

Internal US Gov’t Document Outlines Program of ‘Economic Warfare’ on Venezuela

An internal government document reveals tactics of “economic warfare” and “financial weapons” the US is using against Venezuela in the name of “furthering capitalism.”
By Ben Norton

Venezuela has suffered from an economic crisis in recent years, and while the US government and corporate media outlets have blamed this hardship solely on the ruling socialist party, internal US government documents acknowledge that Washington has been using what it clearly describes as “financial weapons” to wage “economic warfare” on the oil-rich South American nation.

The quiet admission confirms what Caracas’ government has said for years: The United States is waging an economic war on Venezuela, the country with the world’s largest oil reserves

Crippling sanctions imposed by the Donald Trump administration have bled Venezuela of billions of dollars....

https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/30/us-economic-warfare-venezuela/

And:

The Making of Juan Guaidó: How the US Regime Change Laboratory Created Venezuela’s Coup Leader

Juan Guaidó is the product of a decade-long project overseen by Washington’s elite regime change trainers. While posing as a champion of democracy, he has spent years at the forefront of a violent campaign of destabilization.
By Dan Cohen and Max Blumenthal

And:

Venezuela’s US-appointed coup leader Juan Guaidó plans to privatize state assets and give foreign corporations access to oil, the Wall Street Journal admitted.
By Ben Norton
The Wall Street Journal reported that Venezuela’s US-appointed coup leader Juan Guaidó has already drafted plans for “opening up Venezuela’s vast oil sector to private investment” and “privatizing assets held by state enterprises.”

The report confirms what The Grayzone previously reported....

https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/02/03/wsj-venezuela-coup-leader-juan-gu...

JKR]</p> <p>[quote=montgomery]</p> <p>[quote=JKR wrote:

 

I think Venezuela’s current problems are predominantly caused by their country’s brand of socialism’s over-dependence on high oil prices.

That was what you said but I see you've modified that somewhat. That's what I was hoping for. Contrarianna really nailed it with a few links too, that soldily makes the case in my opinion for US meddling in Venezuela.

Quote:

  I think the US and others have taken advantage of a bad situation supplied to them by Venezuela’s government.

How did Venezuela's government supply something to the US?

You can eat it, you just cannot eat nothing but it or you will die

josh wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

People in the country are starving to death. There's no food, inflation is set to reach 10 million percent in 2019.  Citizens are fleeing in all directions.

Should the US get involved or sit back and send thoughts and prayers. 

Should the US and other countries just throw money at them (like the 53 million Canada is pledging)? Or physically step in? 

If a country is donating millions of dollars in aid or just money do they have a right to become involved in how its used? Ensure its not lining warlords and criminals pockets?

 

In 2017 Maduro devised a plan to raise rabbits in order to feed the starving population- the only problem is that anyone with an outdoors background will tell you you can't survive on rabbit meat. You'll die, the meat is too lean. 

 

I saw photos of those demonstrators.  Didn't see anyone who looked like they were starving.

Are you suggesting people in that country aren't actually starving and not facing food problems? 

I mean all the starving people couldbbe at be at home, too weak or sick to attend protests.

 The NYTimes had this to say 

Quote:

 Hunger has stalked Venezuela for years. Now, it is killing the nation’s children at an alarming rate, doctors in the country’s public hospitals say. Venezuela has been shuddering since its economy began to collapse in 2014. Riots and protests over the lack of affordable food, excruciating long lines for basic provisions, soldiers posted outside bakeries and angry crowds ransacking grocery stores have rattled cities, providing a telling, public display of the depths of the crisis. But deaths from malnutrition have remained a closely guarded secret by the Venezuelan government. In a five-month investigation by The New York Times, doctors at 21 public hospitals in 17 states across the country said that their emergency rooms were being overwhelmed by children with severe malnutrition — a condition they had rarely encountered before the economic crisis began. 

Quote:

 

The U.S. has been involved.  Trying to bring about that starvation through economic sanction.

I'll have to research that to make an informed opinion. 

Quote:

 

The whole thing is nothing more than a pretext for overthrowing a regime that won't bow down to the U.S. and the neo-liberal world order. 

Possible? What's the general consensus among citizens there about US intervention?

Paladin1 wrote:

Are you suggesting people in that country aren't actually starving and not facing food problems?

I won't speak for josh, but personally, I think it's pretty amazing how our concern for starving people just [i]happens[/i] to coincide with those people living under governments we want to overthrow. All of a sudden (and I really do mean all of a sudden – CBC's gone to wall-to-wall coverage of Venezuelan suffering more or less overnight since the Lima declaration), now that there's been a policy decision for regime change, poverty in Venezuela is totally unacceptable to us. We're still sending asylum-seekers back to Haiti, though. Haitians are just "economic migrants". They're poor because Haiti's poor, so fuck them (the logic goes).

And Yemen? We take five Yemeni refugees per year, and not selling the Saudis tanks to continue the slaughter in Yemen is out of the question, because it'd cost some jobs in Ontario. Saudi Arabia, to reiterate, doesn't even bother to have sham elections. But we recognize Salman's government. It's only Venezuela, today, that "doesnt have a president". Because of poverty, or our idiosyncratic interpretation of their constitution (the one we rejected when the Supreme Court ruled the National Assembly unconstitutional), or some deeply principled set of talking points the Lima Group suddenly came up with after years of hating Chavez and Maduro for totally unrelated reasons.

I'd venture to say the vast majority of people on this board are in fact deeply concerned with human rights and human suffering. That doesn't mean we can't be skeptical when suddenly handed a sandwich of regime change propaganda. We've seen this movie before, you see.

cco wrote:

I'd venture to say the vast majority of people on this board are in fact deeply concerned with human rights and human suffering. That doesn't mean we can't be skeptical when suddenly handed a sandwich of regime change propaganda. We've seen this movie before, you see.

Great post CCO, completely agree with you.

You, me, the rest of this board may want to help because we're good people that give a shit when other human beings are suffering.

Why do governments want to help, because they care? I don't think so. I think they "want to help" in situations like this because

a) They expect that by helping they can garner votes among th demograph, such as Canada "helping" Haiti and the Ukraine (both with large voter bases back in Canada); or

b) Because they expect to get something in return. The US "helping" Kuwait in Operation Desert Shield.

No really following much of what's going on here politically, maybe the US is expecting to get access to oil? Or, maybe they just want to "help rebuild" the country with many American businesses and little contractors, like KBR providing food for relief workers and such.

It's no secret there IS suffering going on down there, lots of it. I think the question is (or one of them anyways) do we get involved and try to ease some of their suffering and help out despite we (west/US) may/may not have been involved in the lead up to these events, and despite we may benefit financially from it somehow, or, do we say sorry can't help and try to oppose it on the principal that we want to do the opposite of what Trump and the US government wants.  Doesn't matter what it is, if they want to do it then we want the opposite.

Maduro sounds like a pretty shitty president who's lead his country into a pretty shitty place. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolás_Maduro

Quote:

He has ruled Venezuela by decree since 19 November 2013 through powers granted to him by the Venezuela legislature.[5][6][7][8] His presidency has coincided with a decline in Venezuela's socioeconomic status, with crime, inflation, poverty and hunger increasing; analysts have attributed Venezuela's decline to both Chávez and Maduro's economic policies,[9][10][11][12]while Maduro has blamed speculation and economic warfare waged by his political opponents.[13][14][15][16][17][18] Shortages in Venezuela and decreased living standards resulted in protests beginning in 2014 that escalated into daily marches nationwide, resulting in 43 deaths and a decrease in Maduro's popularity.[19][20][21][22] Maduro's loss of popularity saw the election of an opposition-led National Assembly in 2015 and a movement toward recalling Maduro in 2016, though Maduro still maintains power through loyal political bodies, such as the Supreme Tribunal, National Electoral Council and the military.[19][20][23]

He came to power in 2013, country started going down hill in 2014, when Obama was still president. Is Obama the master mind behind their starvation then? 

Organized Labour Lines Up Against Canada's Stance on Venezuela

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cupe-unions-venezuela-maduro-cupw-clc-1...

"We warn Prime Minister Justin Trudeau against playing any role in bringing about regime change in another country.' At the news conference closing Monday's meeting in Ottawa of 16 Lima Group of nations, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said the idea that opposition to Maduro is part of a coup plot organized by western democracies 'could not be further from the truth..."

LOL! A sure sign Freeland is lying  -  her lips are moving. 

When I was a child, Pierre Trudeau was prime minister and Canada was a moderating voice that sometimes supported Third World experiments with nationalism and socialism as alternatives to foreign economic control. It was their right to try other ways, free from outside intervention, and it was our contribution to respect their right.

No more, sadly.

http://troymedia.com/2019/02/04/trudeau-wrong-intervene-venezuela/

Paladin1 wrote:

Maduro sounds like a pretty shitty president who's lead his country into a pretty shitty place. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolás_Maduro

 

Quote:

He has ruled Venezuela by decree since 19 November 2013 through powers granted to him by the Venezuela legislature.[5][6][7][8] His presidency has coincided with a decline in Venezuela's socioeconomic status, with crime, inflation, poverty and hunger increasing; analysts have attributed Venezuela's decline to both Chávez and Maduro's economic policies,[9][10][11][12]while Maduro has blamed speculation and economic warfare waged by his political opponents.[13][14][15][16][17][18] Shortages in Venezuela and decreased living standards resulted in protests beginning in 2014 that escalated into daily marches nationwide, resulting in 43 deaths and a decrease in Maduro's popularity.[19][20][21][22] Maduro's loss of popularity saw the election of an opposition-led National Assembly in 2015 and a movement toward recalling Maduro in 2016, though Maduro still maintains power through loyal political bodies, such as the Supreme Tribunal, National Electoral Council and the military.[19][20][23]

 

He came to power in 2013, country started going down hill in 2014, when Obama was still president. Is Obama the master mind behind their starvation then? 

You of all people should know that "sanctions" are a weapon of war. The US and Venezuela's elite have been waging an economic war since they could not even beat Chavez's replacement in an election. In BC we no longer have a forest industry to speak of because of decades long interference in our economy by the US softwood lumber producers. In Ontario we are bleeding jobs because of Trump's sanctions on Canada for being a security risk.

If Canada had the same level of sanctions applied to it by the US for electing a left wing government, our economy would be devastated.  The US has been using economic sanction to set the stage for regime change and the MSM in North America is cheering them on. None louder than the CBC, Canada's state media.

Paladin1 wrote:

 

He came to power in 2013, country started going down hill in 2014, when Obama was still president. Is Obama the master mind behind their starvation then? 

The US is the master mind of the problems Venezuela is having, but likely short of starvation. But all US presidents are responsible for the evil deeds of their country. Our first concern is for the people of Venezuela if/when the US bombs start raining down on the people.

But there's also a huge concern for what could happen if Russia and/or China stands firm for Venezuela and their interests in that country. 

I'm sure you're not rooting for the US but sometimes it really sounds like it. And surely you're not opposed to Maduro holding on to his legitimate power as the country's leader??

montgomery wrote:

I'm sure you're not rooting for the US but sometimes it really sounds like it. And surely you're not opposed to Maduro holding on to his legitimate power as the country's leader??

Say, who I would have to root for in order to piss you off to the point where you stop bringing up my name in conversation and just ignore me?

NDPP wrote:

[Zionist] Neocons like Michael Levitt MP claim Maduro's policies lead 'millions' to 'starve'. Although Venezuela's people are enduring hardships due largely to US sanctions, I've seen no evidence of mass starvation in 4 days in Caracas. I shot these photos today in a poor part of Caracas."

https://twitter.com/dimitrilascaris/status/1092612920331124736

Zionist?  What was the point of adding that?

montgomery wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

montgomery wrote:

I'm sure you're not rooting for the US but sometimes it really sounds like it. And surely you're not opposed to Maduro holding on to his legitimate power as the country's leader??

Say, who I would have to root for in order to piss you off to the point where you stop bringing up my name in conversation and just ignore me?

Paladin, you're either braindead stupid or you're a fukking closet Conservative. So even though Kropotkin is still in the 'gentle persuasion' mode with you, I'm not. You're no NDP'er Paladin and it's time you were told so. Your ignorance on the Venezuela issue is enough to make real politically astute NDP'ers puke.

Question for you -- when you are banned again are you planning to come back as Monty-the-turd?

montgomery wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

montgomery wrote:

I'm sure you're not rooting for the US but sometimes it really sounds like it. And surely you're not opposed to Maduro holding on to his legitimate power as the country's leader??

Say, who I would have to root for in order to piss you off to the point where you stop bringing up my name in conversation and just ignore me?

Paladin, you're either braindead stupid or you're a fukking closet Conservative. So even though Kropotkin is still in the 'gentle persuasion' mode with you, I'm not. You're no NDP'er Paladin and it's time you were told so. Your ignorance on the Venezuela issue is enough to make real politically astute NDP'ers puke.

Your problem Montgomery is that you have no real idea or understanding what it's like to be an NDP member. I think you're like a kid who watches batman at the theater then runs to an online martial arts forum to talk about how amazing ninjitsu is and when actual ninjitsu practioners (read NDP members) tell you you have no idea what you're talking about you get upset because your obsession of the month were you see yourself an expert is being challanged.

The idea of what you think it is to be NDP isn't consistant with the party beliefs. You pick subjects to try and apply your own phoney made up views of NDP virtues to and it's very alarming. Lie deny counter-accuse appears to be your mantra when challanged. You lack the confidence of a true believer which is why you're constantly trying to pit posters against each other here, what you're saying won't hold up on it's own. You need to hide behind others. 

It's very telling of who you are seeing how quickly your nice guy act washes away into a mess of personal insults, wrapped in a skin typically thin that you are quick to call people names but any semblance of the same treatment has you crying about being attacked and how your the victim. A try NDPer doesn't hide behind being a phony victim.

You can't learn ninjitsu by joining an Internet forum and you can't understand what it is to be NDP that way either  Go and do some hard training then come back when you're ready to be a real NDPer. 

You're certainly welcome Monty. 

Perhaps your  brand of passive aggressive  fire and brimestone style of posting might be better recieved at some kind of conservative forum? Either as a convert or letting them know they're all wrong. Lots of opportunities! 

Finian Cunningham from stragetic-culture.org

A foolhardy invasion of Venezuela could be such a detonator..........

The configuration of chaos and conflict is a very dangerous one. The volatile mix could blow up into a global military confrontation. Washington’s desperation to avert its fate of demise could result in a one reckless aggression too far. A foolhardy invasion of Venezuela could be such a detonator.

Nevertheless, it is crucial to understand the present international precariousness as stemming from inherent American economic problems. That is the key factor that links up all the other seemingly disparate tensions and conflicts. Venezuela is but another demonstration of a wider structural problem centered on American capitalism’s collapse.

Russian, Chinese and other informed planners are presumably well aware of the fraught transition in global politics away from US imperial dominance. Moscow and Beijing hardly want a sudden collapse of American power because that could precipitate a disastrous military reaction. A gradual undermining and weakening of the dollar in a phased withdrawal is probably the safest way to defuse the American time bomb....

As for Canada? caught in the trap of being leader of the co-conspirators against international rule of law...

where will the populaist movement for sovereignty and rule of law come from?

When is a Democracy Not A Democracy...?

https://t.co/wwieKa7Vnu

"...When it's Venezuela and the US [and Canada (including the NDP)] is pushing for regime change..."

Bloody Canada...

https://t.co/9McHHju4jm

"Cheerleading the Lima Group's plot to overthrow the government of Venezuela..."

The NDP is publicly supporting an illegitimate usurper. The party either has a policy or it doesn't and it is clear that its policy is Ready Aye Ready just like the other two main parties in the House.

Until such time as the NDP is prepared to condemn the politics of crimes against the Peace, by supporting the elected President Of Venezuela, there can be no debate. The NDP must raise $53 nmillion from its supporters to support Maduro, thereby cancelling at leaswt morally the Canadian Government support for the coup.

It is either or, with no fantasies about what NDP may do or elect in the future as leader.

No one who believes in justice and peace can dare to support the NDP!