Corbyn’s Labour and the path to power

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

No Ken, you are so wrong. Corbyn has tolerated anti-Semitism in many ofhis supporters. 

Many respected Labour members recognize this.their view is far more balanced than your myopic excuses.

He's accused of tolerating anti-Semitism by those who equate non-Zionism with anti-Semitism.  And he bore no responsibility for the emails which were sent to Luciana Berger.  There's no evidence that any of those were actually sent by Labour supporters or members(there's no way to actually tell the political affiliation of anyone via their email addresses) virtually all of them were sent by far-right types, and the only two incidence of any Labour types sending anything like to Berger occurred years before Corbyn was in the leadership at all.

It's silly to act as though there's some sort of massive increase in anti-Semitism on the left, or to act-as reactionaries like Margaret Hodge do-as though anti-Semitism, horrible as it is, has somehow become the most prevalent form of bigotry in the whole of the UK.

And it's never anti-Semitic simply to point out that what the Israeli government does to Palestinian civilians-not Fatah, not Hamas, but the vast majority of Palestinians who are guilty of nothing other than trying to get through their day as best as anyone can while living under a brutal and unjustified military occupation-is indefensible.  Saying that simply means you are a decent human being.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

What would good local election results in 2019 look like?

quote:

The councils up for election this year are all in England and Northern Ireland and include almost all the non-London metropolitan areas but also nearly all the rural and small town district councils, which are not good territory for Labour. There are no elections in the Remain strongholds of London and Scotland, nor in heavily-Labour Wales, nor in some areas with unitary (single-tier) councils such as County Durham.

The following elections are being held:

  • One third of the seats in 33 of the 36 Metropolitan borough councils (the exceptions are Birmingham, Doncaster and Rotherham)
  • Every seat in 30 unitary councils
  • One third of the seats in 17 other unitary councils
  • Every seat in 130 district councils
  • One third of the seats in 49 other district councils
  • The metro-mayor of the new North of Tyne City Region
  • The mayors of Bedford, Copeland, Leicester, Mansfield and Middlesbrough
  • Every seat in all the 11 councils in Northern Ireland

quote:

Whilst Labour is polling a bit better now nationally than the result it got in the 2015 general election, the distribution of the party’s votes has changed because of the patterns of support for both Brexit and Corbyn, boosting Labour in urban areas and university towns, and reducing its support in small towns and former mining areas in the Midlands and North.

The London boroughs where Remain and Corbyn are most popular are not voting this year, whilst a large number of seats are being contested in district councils covering small towns in the Midlands where Brexit is popular (and Labour is perceived as anti-Brexit) and Corbyn is unpopular.

For these reasons, Labour will be fighting a primarily defensive battle in the 2019 local elections, looking to minimise net losses rather than make net gains.

In other words, Labour could look forward to doing badly in those areas under ANY leader, including the allgedly saintly Emily Thornberry.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

You are absolutely right Aristotle. It is unfair to blame all of Corbyn’s monumental unpopularity on his mishandling of the Brexit file.

there are plenty of other reasons why 72% of the British public disapprove of his leadership.

Even the hapless Theresa May polls better.

It's almost all because of the false accusations:
1) The false accusation that Corbyn tolerates anti-Semitism, which is really just code for "he won't automatically expel all non-Zionists"

2) The false accusation that he "supported the IRA"-he simply supported a united Ireland in the 1980's, at a time when there was no hope that the perpetual discrimination and repression visted on the pro-Irish minority in Northern Ireland would ever end while British rule continued, when massive Loyalist violence against that community continued unabated and neither the British Army nor the Royal Ulster Constabulary nor anyone in the Unionist leadership was doing anything to stop that-and in many cases were clearly abetting such violence and repression-and when the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the non-violent pro-Irish party in N.I., ALSO supported Irish reunification.  It was an era with the pro-Irish minority was utterly powerless within electoral politics and also only a decade or so past the time when the Parachute Regiment of the British forces had made nonviolent protest impossible by firing into a nonviolent protest march on Bloody Sunday and when the SDLP had been shortly thereafter humiliated and sent on a long, irreversible path to electoral oblivion by the violent Unionist/Loyalist uprising which destroyed the peaceful power-sharing arrangement that was set up by the Sunningdale Agreement-an agreement which would have created a power-sharing cross-community government for the North that did not include the IRA.  To take any other position but "Troops Out!" on the Northern Ireland question in the Eighties was to support keeping the misery of the status quo in place for the rest of eternity.  None of those, in either the Conservative Party nor the Labour far right or the SDP, who wanted British troops kept in Northern Ireland even cared about changing the conditions of the pro-Irish minority.  In the Eighties, you could either be "Troops Out!" or go coat-trailing with the hateful fascists of the Orange Order.   "Troops Out!" was never a pro-IRA position; it was simply an anti-oppression position.  

3) The lies that Corbyn was a "communist"-none of his positions were ever close to that-or an agent of the Czechoslovakian Stalinist regime-they'd only have recruited a Tory for that; there'd have been no point in turning an opposition back-bencher.

4) All the shit from the Murdoch press and the BBC-including that backdrop on the BBC show where they altered his hat to make the guy look vaguely like Lenin.

He hasn't taken any positions on any issues outside of Brext that have been unpopular.  And he proved during the 2017 election that he is a brilliant campaigner who can connect brilliantly with the electorate when given the chance to do so directly.

The country is with him on opposing UK military intervention against the Arab/Muslim world.  They support his economic policies.  They are clearly anti-austerity.

It's all down to the unjustified vilification.

BTW, why did you bring up the meaningless 2016 "no-confidence" motion from the MPs(and almost entirely from Blair's handpicked cabal)when he put that to rest by running for re-election to the leadership and winning by a larger margin?  You can't still be arguing that that motion obligated him to immediately stand down and just hand the party back to the Blairite MPs for deity's sakes.  Why on Earth should he have done that, when doing so would have caused hundreds of thousands of Labour members of supporters to instantly resign and brought no one in from the right to replace them?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And as to "respected Labour MPs"...nobody respects Margaret Hodge, and she's basically the only one who won't let the anti-Semitism smear go.

Obviously anti-Semitism, which is an almost entirely right-wing bigotry, must be fought and fought passionately.  But the agenda of those smearing Corbyn on that issue was never actually about opposing anti-Semitism; it was never about anything but equating non-Zionism with anti-Semitism, and with equating virtually any public criticism of the Israeli government and the barbarism it inflicts on Palestinians with anti-Semitism, as if a person can't denounce the Occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, or the siege and bombing of Gaza unless that person is acting out of hatred for Jews, or, if that person happens to be Jewish(as is the case with Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker) out of "self-loathing"(a term which implies that everyone in the world who is Jewish has an obligation to merge their personal identity with the State of Israel)

That was the point of the IHRA "guidelines"-under those guidelines, it is impossible to say anything at all critical of Israeli government security policies, because under those guidelines, all Netanyahu has to say is "they're singling Israel out" and "hey, presto!" whatever was said is not anti-Semitism and whoever said it is an anti-Semite.  There's no way you can oppose any aspect of Israeli security policy and NOT be on the wrong side of those guidelines.  And at a time when yesterday's election results mean that Israel has just voted to become South Africa in the old days-Netanyahu is now talking about stripping Israeli Palestinians/Arab Israelis of the right to vote, a step which would make Israel indistinguishable from the regime Nelson Mandela spent twenty-seven years in prison for trying to overthrow.

The IHRA guidelines make it obligatory to support all of that.  And if you support all that, you forfeit any right to claim to be any sort of a progressive.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The despicable part of the "he supported the IRA" lie was that it implied that Corbyn was disrespecting the suffering of the relatives of British soldiers killed there, when he was clearly doing nothing of the kind. He simply felt, as did virtually everyone to the left of the SDP in the Eighties, that British rule in Northern Ireland, and especially the enforcement of that rule by the British Army, was wrong.  Given that nothing positive ever came of the presence of British troops in the North and that, in that era, nobody in the Unionist side was willing to do anything at all to ease the oppression experienced by people in the minority community, why on earth shouldn't he have felt that way?  There was no such thing as a Left case for continued British rule at that time.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 40%

CON: 31%

LDM: 8%

UKIP: 8%

GRN: 5%

Via , 5-8 Apr.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

New Open Europe poll on forthcoming European Parliamentary elections

10 April 2019

Assuming the EU grants an extension at the special European Council summit on 10 April, Britain will have to prepare to hold European Parliamentary elections on Thursday 23 May.

Most political parties have scarcely begun organising their campaigns, and support is likely to be volatile. However, a new Open Europe poll conducted by Hanbury Strategy reveals current voting intentions for the European Parliament elections:

Labour – 37.8%

Conservatives – 23.0%

Brexit Party – 10.3%

Liberal Democrats – 8.1%

UKIP – 7.5%

Change UK – 4.1%

SNP – 4.1%

Greens – 4.0%

josh
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The smears are failing.  The lies are failing.  And the 8% support received by the "LDM"-is that meant to be the LibDems ?-means that the anti-Corbyn MPs, as they used to disdainfully say of people on the Labour left "have nowhere else to go".

NDPP

Kate Hoey MP on Labour Brexit Betrayal

"Labour MPs stood on a manifesto in an election not a conference motion. It should be country before party." - Kate Hoey: MP UK Labour

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1116096253631324160

"None of the critics of Lexit ever refute our proposition that the EU is an inherently neoliberal body that codifies the will of banks and businesses into law. They can't refute the economic truth so they attack Lexit on superficial grounds claiming it allies us with far right."

https://twitter.com/JoshuaYJackson/status/1114104744920977409

 

NDPP

Pursued For 'Exposing Evidence of US Atrocities': Corbyn Opposes Extradition of Assange

https://on.rt.com/9s2m

"Leader of the opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, has publicly opposed UK's possible extradition of WikiLeaks editor Julian Assange to the US, saying he exposed evidence of atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan..."

Let us see what the reactionary Canadian faux left and NoDifferenceParty has to say...

josh

YouGov poll:  Labour up 4. Brexit and UKIP with a combined 14%

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1117028447069659137

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Water bills cut as Corbyn threat looms

Under threat of nationalisation from a putative Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour government, Britain’s three listed water companies have agreed to the largest cuts in customer bills since privatisation by Margaret Thatcher 30 years ago.

The reductions will mean that households in the West Country will pay 15 per cent less at 2019 prices over the next five years. In the northwest of England, bills will fall by 11 per cent before inflation.

While the inflation link in water charges will mean bills will fall by less, new penalties for missing environmental and operational targets could mean suppliers having to cut household charges by even more as a means of compensating their communities.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Labour considers automatic voter registration to add millions to electoral roll

All British adults could be automatically registered to vote under radical plans being considered by Jeremy Corbyn‘s Labour Party. 

The move could see around seven million voters being added to the electoral register, with huge numbers of young and low income individuals automatically enrolled for the first time.

Mr Corbyn's party believes the current system of individual registration has so far failed to give a voice to huge swathes of the UK public, and Labour will now examine various models around the world.

According to the most up-to-date analysis by the Electoral Commission, between 7.6 and 8.3 million eligible people were not correctly registered to vote across Great Britain in 2015, including one in three under the age of 34.....

NDPP

Nancy Pelosi Meets Labour Sellouts

https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1117395599685558273

"Important discussion with former Labour Party MPs to hear their perspectives on Brexit, Why they left the Labour Party, and the importance of standing unequivocally against anti-Semitism wherever it is found."

josh

Her effort to marginalize the left has gone international.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

The Justice Democrats should primary Pelosi. Replace her with someone like AOC.

NDPP

"I suspect that future historians will find the disconnect between a left-leaning Corbyn supporting mass membership in the LP and their overwhelming swallowing of the Blairite/liberal view of the neo-liberal EU to be one of the strangest aspects of British politics of this period."

https://twitter.com/Jim-Lancashire/status/1118584456133136386

NDPization. Pro-Israel, Pro-Neoliberalism, 'free-trade' etc.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:
The Justice Democrats should primary Pelosi. Replace her with someone like AOC.

AOC endorsed Pelosi for Speaker. She's not the anti-establishment hero that she paints herself to be.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:
The Justice Democrats should primary Pelosi. Replace her with someone like AOC.

AOC endorsed Pelosi for Speaker. She's not the anti-establishment hero that she paints herself to be.

A first-term congressperson in the States usually doesn't have the luxury of immediately calling for the removal of her party's current leader in Congress.  And there was no real chance of ousting Pelosi.  

cco
bekayne
josh

cco wrote:
Right-wing British press: Corbyn's polling lead is a national emergency

I didn’t know Nicky wrote for The Telegraph.

NDPP

"The Labour manifesto said unequivocally 'we accept the results of the referendum.' It was adopted unanimously 11.5.2017 at Labour's Clause V meeting representing all sections of the party. It's the basis on which we won nearly 13 m votes. Labour is the membership, socialist huh?"

https://twitter.com/Lashesxx/status/1123185578932092929

nicky

Can we change the title on this thread to “Corbyn’Labour and the path to betrayal and irrelevancy”?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/30/so-team-corbyn-decide-to-take-a-massive-gamble-and-ignore-lab-voters/

josh

From the same poll that shows Labour in first.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Can we change the title on this thread to “Corbyn’Labour and the path to betrayal and irrelevancy”?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/30/so-team-corbyn-decide-to-take-a-massive-gamble-and-ignore-lab-voters/

Because the massive explosion in support for the Brexit Party coinciding with collapsing public support for the top 2 parties proves that Corbyn is hated simply because he's not doing enough to stop Brexit?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
Can we change the title on this thread to “Corbyn’Labour and the path to betrayal and irrelevancy”?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/30/so-team-corbyn-decide-to-take-a-massive-gamble-and-ignore-lab-voters/

Because the massive explosion in support for the Brexit Party coinciding with collapsing public support for the top 2 parties proves that Corbyn is hated simply because he's not doing enough to stop Brexit?

A reminder:  nicky thinks a leader who drove his party from second place down to a humiliating third, and thus had no chance of leading that party to any significant gains in the next election, was a success, but one who led his party to a ten point gain in the popular vote and a gain of 30 seats, during an election where many of his own party were trying to force him out as leader during the election campaign-a time when it is impossible for a party to change leaders-is a failure.

Consider that when reading anything nicky has to say about Corbyn.

Also, nicky would have to go to an epic level of pretzel logic in arguing that Labour would be doing better if only it had taken the Blairite position of putting the repeal of Brexit over all other objectives, given that it's the pro-Brexit party surging in the polls, while the anti-Brexit parties, the LibDems and CUK,  are languishing at the bottom.

nicky

There are local elections tomorrow which will shed some light on Corbyn’s leadership.

the European elections are also scheduled for late May. They will also be revealing, unless they are cancelled. Corbyn now has an interest in striking a deal with May over aBrexit deal before then. That will enable the cancelation of the EU electionandavoid humiliationfor bothparties.

Corbyn has now manoeuvred hisparty into accepting such a deal without a confirmatoryreferendum. He may also avoid giving the public a say through the EU election.

His anti-democratic stand looks to be very damaging for Labour.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6979785/Labour-members-slice-cards-Corbyns-second-referendum-fudge.html

nicky

Incidentally Ken, if you add up the polling results for the Remain parties ( ChangeUk, Greens, SNP, Plaid etc) you get well over 30%, well ahead of  the Brexit parties,theCons or Labour.

and keep in mind, unlike their hapless leader, the great majority of Labour voters are pro- Remain.

anyway, tomorrow’s elections  and the EU elections later this month( assuming Corbyn and May do not find a way or circumventing them) May show which of us is right.

josh

nicky wrote:

There are local elections tomorrow which will shed some light on Corbyn’s leadership.

the European elections are also scheduled for late May. They will also be revealing, unless they are cancelled. Corbyn now has an interest in striking a deal with May over aBrexit deal before then. That will enable the cancelation of the EU electionandavoid humiliationfor bothparties.

Corbyn has now manoeuvred hisparty into accepting such a deal without a confirmatoryreferendum. He may also avoid giving the public a say through the EU election.

His anti-democratic stand looks to be very damaging for Labour.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6979785/Labour-members-slice-cards-Corbyns-second-referendum-fudge.html

 

The Daily Mail?  LOL.

josh

nicky wrote:

Incidentally Ken, if you add up the polling results for the Remain parties ( ChangeUk, Greens, SNP, Plaid etc) you get well over 30%, well ahead of  the Brexit parties,theCons or Labour.

and keep in mind, unlike their hapless leader, the great majority of Labour voters are pro- Remain.

anyway, tomorrow’s elections  and the EU elections later this month( assuming Corbyn and May do not find a way or circumventing them) May show which of us is right.

 

And if you add up the brexit parties and the Tories, you get well over 40%.  So what's your point?

NDPP

Labour Party Strife

https://youtu.be/lCjkIOF1Qb4

"It would be tantamount to telling Brexit voters to vote again until they get it right,' says George Galloway, after the Labour Party met to decide their stance on a second EU referendum."

nicky

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Also, Corbyn isn't "hated".   He represents the views of the vast majority of Labour voters who WANT the party to make a total break with the essentially Tory policies of Blair.  His popularity ratings are down because the Brexit question has been manipulated against Jeremy-even though he couldn't center the unwinnable fight to overturn the last referendum without fatally splitting the party-and because the Labour Right won't let the antisemitism slur die, even though Corbyn has done everything that could be done to address the issue and everyone knows he's a passionate opponent of antisemitism.

You personally hate Corbyn because you wanted Labour to stay Blairite-i.e., Tory-for the rest of eternity.  

BTW...if you're going to play the "if you knew who I was" card again, you pretty much have an obligation to TELL US who the hell you are.

You clearly can't be a person who cares about working people and the poor, because it's only people on the left wing of "center-left" politics or those to THEIR left, only those who are anti-capitalist, anti-austerity and as antiwar as possible who have any right to make that claim.  Nobody who obsesses about balanced budgets, nobody who wants social spending kept low and benefits subjected to sanctimonious judgmental means-testing, nobody who wants unions kept weak, nobody who wants privatized enterprises kept privatized and nobody who still thinks the Western invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya or the U.S. bombing of Yemen are justified has any moral right to even pretend they are fighting for the working and kept-from-working-by-capitalism poor.

 

nicky

Ken, I have never said that Corbyn is “hated.” His abysmal popularity ratings are not based on hatred so much as disdain, an image of incompetence, lack of qualification, poor performance in Parliament, tolerance for anti-Semitism, irrelevance, and vaccination over Europe, amongst other deficiencies - but not hatred.

incidentally, here is a link to his popularity polling which shows a pretty consistent 3 to 1 disapproval rate, consistently worse than even Theresa May. And none of these polls reflect what happened at the NEC on Tuesday.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Aristotleded24

You're absolutely right, nicky. How dare Corbyn commit the horrible sin of saying that Palestinians are humans and their human rights should be respected. He should just go along with the MSM consensus in the English-speaking world by agreeing that Palestinians are horrible people and that the Israeli government is justified in levelling all kinds of brutality against him. Then people would love him!

Aristotleded24

Anyways, with all the serious issues like Brexit and Corbyn's anti-semitism going around, we had to deal with the silly little distraction that the Parliament adopted his motion that we are in a climate change emergency. Does anyone think the UK Parliament would have done so under any other leader?

Nicky, are you so blinded by your "hatred" or "disdain" or whatever other adjective you use to describe Corbyn so as to not notice that the planet is on fire and will make human life all but impossible soon unless we act? Or is stopping Brexit the only issue in the world that needs to be dealt with?

nicky

I am unaware A24, that I have criticized Corbyn for his positions on climate change or Palestine. 

But then I may lack your peculiar powers of Aristotlean logic.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

nicky wrote:

I am unaware A24, that I have criticized Corbyn for his positions on climate change or Palestine. 

But then I may lack your peculiar powers of Aristotlean logic.

As you are no doubt aware, the accusation of anti-semitism against Corbyn, which you have personally referred to many times with approval, is based solely on his support for Palestinian human rights. There is no evidence whatsoever of actual anti-semitism.

As well, you have studiously avoided any discussion of policy as regards Corbyn, including climate change. It's all personality as far as you are concerned. I suspect that the reason you do this is that you realize your reactionary opinions would be mocked and rejected by most babblers if you were ever foolish enough to state them.

As far as your repeated claim to be someone we would all love and respect if only we knew who you are, I would say it is quite the opposite. If I discovered that you happen to be someone I had previously admired and respected, I would have to admit that I had been completely wrong to see you in any positive light, as demonstrated by your babble posting history.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Michael Moriarity wrote:

nicky wrote:

I am unaware A24, that I have criticized Corbyn for his positions on climate change or Palestine. 

But then I may lack your peculiar powers of Aristotlean logic.

As you are no doubt aware, the accusation of anti-semitism against Corbyn, which you have personally referred to many times with approval, is based solely on his support for Palestinian human rights. There is no evidence whatsoever of actual anti-semitism.

Or even, in any possible sense, of toleration of anti-semitism.

Corbyn, if anything, is the most committed opponent of anti-semitism ever to lead a major British political party.

It is never necessary to restrict criticism of the Israeli government or of Zionism as an ideology to fight against antisemitism.

 

 

nicky

I have never called Corbyn an anti-Semite. My criticism of him is the same as that made by many others, including innumerable Labour Party members - that he has tolerated anti-Semitism amongst his followers.

And I do not claim any special consideration for who I am. I have been accused of any number of right wing positions to which I do not ascribe. In response I pointed out that if you knew what I had done over the years for progressive politics you would not be levelling such slurs at me.

Anyway, let's pay attention to the British local elections tonight and see if we can take any guidance from the results.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The big takeaway is likely to be that the only party which will make significant gains is the Brexit Party.  There is no way Labour could have gained in this situation from doing what you wanted and giving the fight to undo Brexit a higher priority than the fight to defeat the Tory government.  There is no possible way anything progressive can ever happen in the UK if the Tories are re-elected at the next general election-we can assume another Tory majority will be the death of the NHS-and once the NHS is dead, no progressive possibilities can ever exist in the UK, and it will no longer matter who wins any elections after that.

The anti-Corbynites don't care about that-all they care about is dumping Corbyn, expelling all his supporters, and making the party a Blairite dead zone again.  There is no concern for the poor and the working class among those people-if there was, they would have accepted that 2017 settled the leadership question and given up sabotaging the only credible leader Labour could possibly have.  Any of the alternatives you've suggested are sharply to Corbyn's right and virtually all still defend the Iraq War.  

This matters-because if they succeed in expelling the Left again, there will no longer be any reason for Labour to exist.  It will go back to the slow death it was sliding towards from 2010 to 2015-years when there was never any hope for a Labour victory at all, years when the membership levels of the party kept plummeting.  A party without a growing membership base cannot be politically successful.  

Why couldn't you just stop after 2017?  Why couldn't the anti-Corbynites just stop then?  Hadn't all of you done enough?

You keep saying that if we knew what you'd done for the progressive cause, we'd see you differently.  Can you name any progressives, any left people anywhere in Canada, who think that, for example, it's better for the NDP to have a less-progressive leader than a more-progressive one?

Also, what does "progressive" even mean to you?  Does it mean what it means to the Liberals-tiny, trivial increments that no one notices?

And why should we take your assertions that you are some sort of legendary hero of the Left when the rest of us have no idea what you've done or said?  You do realize that anybody can say they are "all that", right?  You keep acting as if your views should get greater deference than those of the rest of us, but you can't just expect people to take that on "spec".

nicky

So far the results show massive losses for the Cons and large losses for both Labour and UKIP (Brexit Party, contrary to your prediction Ken is not even running in these elections). Huge gains for LibDems and Greens.

how does this fit with your narrative Ken?

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
So far the results show massive losses for the Cons and large losses for both Labour and UKIP (Brexit Party, contrary to your prediction Ken is not even running in these elections). Huge gains for LibDems and Greens.

I think someone said in one of these threads that most of the areas that are voting were pro-Brexit areas. The fact that the Greens gained proves that a left-wing message resonates with voters.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
So far the results show massive losses for the Cons and large losses for both Labour and UKIP (Brexit Party, contrary to your prediction Ken is not even running in these elections). Huge gains for LibDems and Greens.

I think someone said in one of these threads that most of the areas that are voting were pro-Brexit areas. The fact that the Greens gained proves that a left-wing message resonates with voters.

It doesn't prove that centering the unwinnable and right wing fight to overturn the last referendum would have led to anything positive for Labour.

The only reason the anti-Corbynites wouldn't let Brexit go was to use it against Corbyn.  It was never done out of humane and progressive intent.  It was never done out of any intent to fight for a better UK.

nicky

That’s such nonsense Ken. 

In your universe everyone who opposes Brexit or fails to worship the hapless Corbyn is part of some right wing conspiracy.

you seem incapable of learning any lessons from these elections.

if Labour is similarly blinkered it will have an unhappy future

josh

Both main parties lost votes.  Labour’s losses were in the north where pro-Brexit support is stronger.  Both will continue to fall as long as parliament refuses to implement the 2016 vote.  Apparently remainers are content with the possibility of Niles Farage becoming PM in order to remain in the EU.

nicky

The two parties that registered large gains were the Lib Dems and the Greens, both unambiguously anti-Brexit. The two most pro-Brexit parties, the Cons and UKIP lost massively.

Labour should hav3 cleaned up in this climate but instead was drowned in Corbynite hypocrisy an$ incoherence.

sure there were some regional variations but this does not obscure the overall verdict which was pro-remain

josh

The Brexit Party was not on the ballot in these local elections.  And national polls show the Brexit Party gaining at the expense of both major parties.  Little movement for the LDs and the Greens. 

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