United Kingdom 2

1007 posts / 0 new
Last post
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

As I've pointed out, it is impossible for any Labour leader to change party policy on any issue between party conference.  Party policy can ONLY be changed at the party conference.  And, since it isn't possible that a second referendum will be approved in this parliament, with the Tories still in power, it's pointless to demand that Corbyn fight for the approval of something he can't cause the approval of.  

I agree that some of the Brexit supporters are reactionary.  But what progressive outcomes could there possibly be of fighiting to keep the UK in a body whose rules make socialism and even social democracy impossible?  A body which can never be reformed or changed in any significant way?  A body in which all major decisions will always be made solely by the EU Executive, with the European Parliament having no real say over anything?

Since no once but the wealthy in the UK would benefit from the UK staying in that organization at this point, why not accept reality that Soft Brexit is the only decent way out, and that what matters more than anything else is removing the Tories from power so Soft Brexit can be achieved?

 

nicky

“Few Labour MPs, if any, relish the prospect of an election under their leader, although most pretend to want one. It is hard to present Corbyn as a man for the future, and May’s departure will date him even more. He will be a stale continuity figure from the time of stasis, irradiated through years of loitering ineffectually amid the referendum’s toxic fallout. His aura of specialness has dissipated, revealing the man in all his flawed mediocrity. The prospect of Britain having a radical Labour government is sliding into the gap that has opened up between an idea people once called “Jeremy Corbyn” and the actual Jeremy Corbyn.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/02/jeremy-corbyn-liability-brexit-labour-party

”none but the rich wd benefit fromRemain”?

did you really say that Ken? Millions wd be impoverished by Brexit. Hundreds of thousands wd be unemployed.

No it is not undemocratic to let the public vote again, now that the consequences are clearer and a large majority now want to Remain.

yes, the Labour policy does allow for a second vote. Read it Ken. And after the Sept conference, the quibbles will not be able to wriggle through perceived ambiguities.

And no, Labour wd not lose EVERY northern vote if the party was squarely for Remain. Nor wd it drive out EVERY youthful idealist, the youth being Remains most loyal demographic.

the Washington Post has a box score that catalogues Trump’s innumerable misstatements. We shd do the same for you.

 

 

nicky
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Seriously, nicky?  you would quote The Guardian, a website that pretends to be progressive but has proved it isn't by relentlessly attacking the first non-reactionary leader Labour has had in decades?

The Guardian has no credibility on this.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The policy calls for a second referendum if all other methods have been exhausted.  The policy, as currently written, does not allow Corbyn to center the second referendum of his own volition.

There's going to be an election within months.  Even if a second referendum were approved, it wouldn't happen BEFORE the next election.   

It's enough that the policy can be changed in September.  Until then, everybody needs to let this go, since it isn't possible to get a second referendum approved in a parliament where the Tories are in power, there's no reason to push Corbyn on this any longer.

What matters is defeating the Tories at the election which will almost certainly be held once the new Tory leader is held.  THAT is the key.   It's not a victory for anyone but the wealthy for the UK to stay in the EU, an institution that can never be changed or reformed, if the Tories stay in power.   There is no chance to ever end austerity or have a government which puts human needs and human dignity at the same level of priority as private profit.

If the EU could ever be run by the working people of the UK and Europe, it might be different.  But that day, tragically, can never come, since Germany and France have made changing the EU impossible.

NDPP

Labour MP Chris Williamson Suspended As Corbyn Again Appeases His Right Wing

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/07/01/will-j01.html

"It took just two days and a howl of outrage from a collection of right-wing Blairites and Zionists for Chris Williamson MP to be suspended from the Labour Party for a second time on June 28. Corbyn showed just as little appetite to defend Williamson as he has previously demonstrated in relation to Jackie Walker, Ken Livingstone, Marc Wadsworth and others targeted for slander and removal by the Blairites..."

NDPP

"So after a highly opaque and secretive process, the German Defence Minister who's a cheerleader for an EU army and directly called for a United States of Europe, has been appointed to the EU's most powerful position. I challenge any Remainer to name a single good democratic reason why..."

https://twitter.com/HughRBennett/status/1146112497784688641

nicky

Ken, you don’t seem to like the Guardian, or the New Statesman or Labour List  ( let alone the Spectator or the Independent), because none of them are sufficiently worshipful of Corbyn.

perhaps you could suggest some British publications that are reliable or authoritative.?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I don't expect anybody to WORSHIP Corbyn.  I don't worship him myself, or any other politician.  It's not worship to say that he's the only decent person who's led Labour in decades, or that he never deserved to have his own MPs spend four years refusing to fighting to force him out as leader, let alone that the vast majority of Labour members and supporters who wanted the party to embrace socialism again and stop supporting austerity never deserved to be treated by the MPs as though Labour shouldn't ever restore internal party democracy.

I haven't read Labour List in years-when I DID read it, its articles were all right-wing and anti-Corbyn.  New Statesman wanted Corbyn replaced by the Pfizer lobbyist(and therefore automatically reactionary) Owen Smith.

There is no reason you should have spent the last four years being this obsessed with trying to get Corbyn OUT as leader.   And there was no reason for the MPs to never accept that Corbyn had won the leadership race and that getting the Tories out of power and a Labour government in to replace them mattered more than everything else.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It's not as though the only possible positions a person could take towards Corbyn are worship or implacable hostility.

And nothing would be better for Labour if it had a cynical centrist hack who spoke in nothing but soundbites as leader.

nicky

I don’t think I’m “obsessed” over Corbyn, Ken.

you Post about 4 x as many words on this topic as me, although in fairness they are endlessly repetitive.

i asked you what publications you think present Corbyn fairly and you conspicuously declined to name a single one. Are there any? Or do they have to support Corbyn before you call them “fair”?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

OK.  Red Pepper, for one:  https://www.redpepper.org.uk/

The Off-Guardian, which has been frequently linked to here.

Jewish Socialist:  https://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/resources/js

Since the British media, as a bloc, is pro-neoliberal, pro-austerity, and still largely in support of the discredited concept of "humanitarian" military intervention and still mostly take Netanyahu's side against the people of Palestine, there's almost no other publication there I have any reason to trust.

 

nicky
josh

YouGov.  LOL.  “We guarantee to register Labour’s lowest number of all the polls, or your money back.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

nicky

LOL indeed Josh. You might more accurately say “whistling past the graveyard.”

YouGuv was the most accurate poll in the recent EU election. It nailed the Labour vote while almost all other polls substantially overestimated it.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/06/30/the-best-test-of-a-pollster-is-not-how-theyre-currently-doing-against-other-firms-but-what-happened-last-time-they-were-tested/

josh

Off in the 2017 election, an election that matters.

nicky

Are ALL the polls wrong Josh? Are there any that say what you want them to say about Corbyn?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The strength of the Brexit Party in those polls PROVES Labour wouldn't gain votes by putting the impossible goal of getting a second referendum on Brexit BEFORE the next election.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Labour has to hold the support of the young.  

nicky

It proves nothing of the sort Ken. Brexit Party  has been drawing mostly from the Cons . The Greens and Lib Dems have been canibalizing Corbyn' s corpse.

As for holding the young, they are abandoning Corbyn in droves, mostly over his dithering stand on Europe. Poll after poll shows the hus ge majority of young voters are pro Remain.

nicky
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Labour can't ever hold the support of the young if it repeats its 1987 to 1997 project of abandoning everything it stood for.  It certainly couldn't if it put in as leader any of the MPs who accepted the Harriet Harman tactic of abstaining on -which is the same thing as supporting-Theresa May's indefensibly savage cuts in benefit and the barbaric "benefits sanctions" policy.

If Labour does those things, everyone in the UK under 40 will vote Green at the next election.  The only way to appeal to the young is to be anti-austerity, anti-economic inequailty and antiwar.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Corbyn's been down in the polls, in part, because the Labour Right is once again slandering him on antisemitism, when he's done everything that can be done on that issue and when he was ALWAYS an implacable opponent of antisemitism.

As to the mural whose destruction he temporarily opposed, most of those depicted on it were American CHRISTIAN robber barons.  

NDPP

"...Without deselection of around 60-70 MPs there is no chance of a Corbyn-led Labour government, as a sizeable number of the PLP won't support one. So even if Corbyn 'wins' a GE he loses. Those who signed Watson's letter on Chris Williamson will see to that."

https://twitter.com/NeilClark66/status/1146487588334768128

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Read that-the man lost any credibility when, after pretending to be a left-winger, he described opposition to breaking up NATO, an outdated institution that should have been wound up when the USSR was abolished in 1991, or opposition to the UK keeping the pointless Trident missile as "Stalinist".

If you still use Cold War rhetoric in this day and age, you're right wing.  

 

NDPP

I agree with the tweet. Not  points having nothing to do with what I posted.

josh

Noam Chomsky on the anti-Semitism smear campain against Corbyn and his supporters:

https://twitter.com/DCKennard/status/1147064458537263104

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

I agree with the tweet. Not  points having nothing to do with what I posted.

I agree with the tweet itself, too.  A lot of other things that writer came out with are sketchy, but he's bang-on on the point he's making.

There anti-Corbyn MPs need to be given a clear choice:  accept the guy as leader and commit to supporting him as pm if he leads Labour into government, or face de-selection.  Most of them would probably just stand down at the next election-the dismal poll ratings for CUK prove there's no real support for the idea of SDP 2.0

contrarianna

To recap once again. Before the 2017 General Election Nicky campaigned for months against Corbyn with endless smears, polls and comments, claiming total a Labour election disaster. 

When Labour gained 30 seats in the election he immediately went into hiding--for many months-- only to return with the same crap . 

He is either incapable of embarrassment, or he imagines people have no memory at all. 

Not surprisingly, Watson is model of integrity for Nicky:

2. You have often denounced TOM WATSON as a Blairite, but now concede that he worked to undermine Blair. Do you not see a contradiction? In any event I think WATSON is an admirable MP. Labour is lucky to have him as deputy leader....

http://rabble.ca/comment/5605381#comment-5605381

Watson's yes/no/  Blair plotting, as noted in 2011:

It’s strange to recall that his relations with Blair used to be good. Watson, elected in 2001 at the age of 34, was a New Labour loyalist, a supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and, as late as January 2005, was nominated “Top Toadie” by the Guardian diary. Yet by then it was clear to those inside the party whose camp he was in, and the so-called “curry house plot” the following summer ensured that his Blairite ties would be severed permanently....

https://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/09/watson-news-interview-m...

Oops, not quite "severed permenently" since Blair now has high praise for Watson, and regrets ever having said bad things about his opportunistic backstabbing  rival:

Tony Blair moves from hating Tom Watson's guts to loving his work

https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/diary/tony-blair-moves-hating-tom...

As for Brexit, Watson is now asking for a "Chilcot-style inquiry into Brexit" though he opposed having the REAL Chiclot Inquiry:

Tom Watson opposed all inquiries into the Iraq war he voted for. But now he wants one for Brexit?

....

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2019/03/25/tom-watson-opposed-all-inqui...

In 2013, Watson put pressure on Cameron's government to hold the referendum before any negotiations with the EU:

Watson, a former Labour minister and campaign director, said he was planning to support Adam Afriyie, a Tory backbencher, who is leading calls for an in-out poll before 2015.

The move has been firmly rebuffed by No 10, which said the prime minister would in no circumstances allow a referendum before he had had a chance to renegotiate Britain's relationship with EU. Cameron is supporting a bill by James Wharton, a backbencher, which sets out a plan to hold a referendum before the end of 2017....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/david-cameron-eu-refere...

From Watson's Wikipedia bio:

European referendum:

In 2013 Watson joined a cross-party campaign in support of a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union. He supported an amendment by the Conservative MP Adam Afriyie, for a referendum to be held before the 2015 general election.[49][50]

Opposition to anti-war protests:

In December 2015, Watson spoke about Labour members who took part in a vigil against proposed UK airstrikes on Syria outside the office of Stella Creasy MP, saying that "if there were Labour party members on that [anti-war] demonstration, intimidating staff members of an MP like that, then I think they should be removed from the party." His spokesman later said that Watson was unaware that the office was empty at the time.[45]

Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen:

In October 2016, Watson abstained, along with 100 other Labour MPs who abstained on or voted against the Labour Party’s unsuccessful motion to withdraw UK support from the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen. The Saudi Arabian–led intervention in Yemen had led to thousands of civilian casualties.[46][47]

A worthy hero for Nicky indeed.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Good historical piece on the attitude of those-the Anti-Corbynites-who opposed internal party democracy and the right of constituency parties to be able to choose the person they want as parliamentary candidates at every election, as opposed to MPs having a seemingly Divine Right to perpetual automatic reselection-for-life-a battle that was always about whether or not Labour MPs owed their CLPs any accountability at all:  

https://www.redpepper.org.uk/labour-and-reselection-the-panic-last-time/

NDPP

Stephen Harper A Good Choice To Negotiate A Brexit Deal

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/07/02/stephen-harper-a-good-choic...

"The former prime minister was named as a possible Brexit negotiator..."

Who better to negotiate a neo-liberal surrender styled as a 'win-win' 'soft-Brexit' for all? He will complement the   other Canadian neo-liberal, ex Goldman-Sachs alumnus Mark Carney who may be moving from the Bank of England to head of the IMF to replace ex felon neo-liberal Christine Legarde named to take over the European Central Bank. Britain needs to 'Clean Brexit' the hell out of that EU mafiosi hellhole. The wheels will soon come off that runaway crushing cart in any case. Labour under the Blairites or Corbyn should beware it does not become a British surrender-monkey version of Syriza...

From Josh's latest post in the 'Greece' thread:

"The party's main difference from its rightwing rival New Democracy, is a laughable persistence in claiming to be a party of the left. It's government record shows greater zeal in implementing the neoliberal programme of the European troika - the consortium of the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF - in the years since the 2008 financial crisis, than any of its conservative predecessors..."

NorthReport

Just the beginning of the unraveling of the UK

Scottish secretary warns Johnson: no-deal Brexit could split UK

David Mundell says Nicola Sturgeon would use October exit to push for independence

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/06/top-tory-warns-johnson-no-deal-brexit-would-be-gift-to-snp

 

 

NorthReport

Can a Corbyn-Sturgeon alliance save Brexit Britain from itself?

A Labour-SNP coalition could reorder the UK's economic landscape, end free market orthodoxy, and even reverse Brexit.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/corbyn-sturgeon-alliance-save-brexit-britain-190705104539385.html

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It might, but again, since a general election is imminent and since we all know it's impossible to get parliament to approve a second referendum before that imminent general election, everybody needs to get off of Corbyn's case-which, in fact, means getting off of the Labour Party's case-on that.

The only party which can beat the Tories is Labour.  A vote for the Greens or LibDems on Brexit is a vote to give Boris a false majority.

NorthReport
NDPP

There seems to be a spate of these western politicians obviously 'light' on top. Trump, Trudeau, Macron, Bojo - boggles the mind to see such dim bulbs managing to find their way to the top.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

NDPP wrote:

There seems to be a spate of these western politicians obviously 'light' on top. Trump, Trudeau, Macron, Bojo - boggles the mind to see such dim bulbs managing to find their way to the top.

You are wrong on both counts, they are not stupid and they are not on top.

nicky

I guess some of you will mot be interested in the latest ComRes poll which has Labour down to 14% and in fourth place.

better not replace Cornyn or no ine under 40 will ever bote Labour again. Do i have that right Ken?

At 14% how many under 40s does Labour still have that it can lose?

 

josh
NDPP

The EU's Scurrilous Anti-Democratic Dealings Prove Once Again That It Is Beyond Reform

https://t.co/MvKIuyMPG5

"...The system now lies in ruins, proof of the impossibility of normal democratic practice within the EU. The proposed appointments are still more evidence that it is politically impossible to reform the transnational juggernaut of Brussels. Remain and Reform is a wild goose chase. If the aim is to achieve economic transformation in favour of the many together with democratic renewal, Britain will have to mobilise its own resources..."

NorthReport

Guess what's coming for the Brexit and non-Brexit fans alike.

Want to know what a Boris Johnson government would look like? I have just the book

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/07/boris-johnson-government-britannia-unchained

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

I guess some of you will mot be interested in the latest ComRes poll which has Labour down to 14% and in fourth place.

better not replace Cornyn or no ine under 40 will ever bote Labour again. Do i have that right Ken?

At 14% how many under 40s does Labour still have that it can lose?

 

None of which could be changed by Labour centering the second referendum fight when therer can't BE a second referendum before the next general election, as everybody in the UK knows.

BTW, the most recent poll has Labour 2 points ahead.  If those who still won't accept that the discussion is over the only choices are Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit would just let the pointless fight for a second referendum go, a Labour victory would be assured.

Staying in the EU is simply not possible.  The only thing that matters now is defeating the Tories and Farage's party, and neither can be beaten by a party which doesn't accept that the EU issue is settled.

 

nicky

Of course it is possible Ken. Remain is now heavily favoured by the public and is only a few votes short of prevailing in Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/07/labour-remainers-must-seize-control

NorthReport

If this is democracy stop deceiving the citizens and give them dictatorship 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-04/boris-johnson-says-brexit-is-key-to-keeping-u-k-together

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Of course it is possible Ken. Remain is now heavily favoured by the public and is only a few votes short of prevailing in Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/07/labour-remainers-must-seize-control

There's going to be an election as soon as Johnson is chosen pm.  Nothing can be done between now and then.  Neither Corbyn nor any other possible Labour leader would be able to force the Labour Leave MPs to vote for a second referendum.  Why can't you accept that Soft Brexit-which keeps the tiny number of decent, progressive things related to the EU and which is just as anti-xenophobia as Remain, is the best that can be done?

It was enough to fight Brexit in 2015.  Nothing progressive or social democratic or even humane would come of continuing to fight it now, since the EU is permanently right-wing on economics and can't be made to change its policies on that by any means at all.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And Hutton and Watson are wrong:  "mainstream Labour" is not anti-Left, is not pro-austerity and is not pro-perpetual war against the Arab/Muslim world.  ACTUAL mainstream Labour is John McDonnell.  It could only be a tragedy if Labour moved right on any issues at all.

josh

nicky wrote:

I guess some of you will mot be interested in the latest ComRes poll which has Labour down to 14% and in fourth place.

better not replace Cornyn or no ine under 40 will ever bote Labour again. Do i have that right Ken?

At 14% how many under 40s does Labour still have that it can lose?

 

Maybe ComRes gave you a heads up, but I still haven’t seen this poll.

nicky

Ken, as I understand current legislation an early election cannot be held unless 2/3 of Parliament agree.

 

That is what happened in 2017.

 

Corbyn  currently says he is in favour of a general election (notwithstanding the polls) but, if he chooses, Labour could vote against it .

If Johnson's request for an early election is refused, Parliament could then revoke s 50 or legislate for a second referendum. 

 

Both these positions were only a few votes short in Parkliament before and could well pass if Corbyn took a stand instead of continuing the dithering that has so damaged Labour.

You have said many many times that this is not possible. Repeating it ad nausium doesn't make it so.

NDPP

Leak of Ambassador's Trump Views Shows Honesty Has No Place in International Relations

https://on.rt.com/9xrs

"...Sir Kim Darroch called Trump, among other things, 'incompetent', 'inept', and 'clumsy'. That all looks pretty rich now that his innermost thoughts on the one man he is supposed to be buttering up have been released for all to see. Here is the official response of the prime minister: 'The prime minister has full faith in her ambassador to Washington. Our ambassadors provide honest unvarnished assessments of politics in their country.'

This from Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt: 'It's a personal view and there will be many people in this building who don't agree with that view and indeed I don't agree with some of the views that we saw in these letters. I think the US administration is highly effective and we have the warmest of relationships and a partnership based on standing up for shared values..."

No wonder our own Foreign Minister gets on with Hunt so warmly.

NDPP

New Documents Reveal a Covert British Military-Intelligence Smear Machine Meddling in US Politics

https://twitter.com/JimMeeks13/status/1147903806396669952

"The Integrity Initiative has mobilized an international disinformation campaign across Europe. Now, with government and right-wing foundations managing this massive 'political smear unit' is infiltrating the US:

'A bombshell domestic spy scandal has been unfolding in Britain after hacked internal communications exposed a covert UK state military-intelligence psychological warfare operation targeting its own citizens and political figures in allied NATO countries under the cover of fighting 'Russian disinformation'..."

Pages