United Kingdom 2

NorthReport wrote:

Ken, it seems the Labour MPs disagree with you 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-general-election-final-say-vote-a9151131.html

Those are the same MPs who never accepted Corbyn as leader in the first place and have refused ever to treat him with any respect at all.  They are pushing for Labour to go all-out Remain in order to ensure that Labour loses the next election, so they can force Corbyn out as leader and then rig the leadership ballot to exclude any non-Blairite candidates.  That's what everything the anti-Corbynites have done for the last four years has been about.

"New: ComRes poll of 26,000 people shows that the majority of Brits want the referendum result delivered (regardless of how they voted), with LEAVE outpolling Remain as preferred outcome by 54% to 46%..."

https://twitter.com/isaby/status/1184373555443720192

 

"The tragedy for Labour is that it has been wrong on Europe. It has been on the opposite side of the argument to the British people at various times in history. Brexit was centre-left ideas made by centre-right politicians. If we'd been LEAVE we'd be the Gods of politics."

https://twitter.com/BrendanChilton/status/1183848981174112256

• BRINO By Boris: Brexit-In-Name-Only

https://twitter.com/C_Lapavitsas/status/1184891237863772160

"Johnson's deal accepts all EU constraints on public procurement and state aid, while adding a 'Free Trade Agreement'. It could block radical policies for decades. Johnson's deal with the EU is worse than May's and it has nothing to do with Lexit. But the answer to Johnson should not be to Remain in the restrictive and undemocratic EU. It should be LEFT BREXIT that would make radical policies possible."

I really hope this huge schism within Labour doesn't hand power to the Conservatives in the upcoming election. 

These last two threads support two points I've been trying to make:

1) The priority should not be on the fight to get a second referendum before the election, because even if it was possible to get a second referendum through this parliament-and the results of all previous parliamentary votes on the issue prove it isn't-it's far from clear that Remain would prevail in a second referendum, so having a second referendum would in all likelihood be a waste of time;

2) What matters is stopping Boris from getting what he wants-a goal that IS achievable if the majority of Labour MPs abandon their obsession with trying to destroy their party's current leader, and their obsession with trying to force said leader into taking a stand on Brexit they know would destroy Labour's chances of beating the Tories at the next general election, and focus instead on what they should be focused on; making sure Boris' Brexit proposal doesn't pass.

 

NDPP wrote:

"It is better for the UK to leave the EU with no deal than for the UK to accept a bad deal from the EU:' Agree: 45%, Disagree 27%. 75% of Leave voters agree, as do 22% of Remain voters."

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185277757665742850

If only there were a definintion of what is a "bad deal" this poll would actually mean something.

Prominent Remain and Leave Supporters Combine To Urge Opposition to Johnson's Sell-Out Deal

https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1185286556724150278

Bojo's new EU treaty is May's deal 2.0 with lipstick on the pig. Pound rises on the news - big capital approves.

It may very well happen. The consistent pattern observed elsewhere is for EU power players to repeat their enabling processes until power is achieved and confirmed. Collaborationist politicians left and right are always available as is msm to sell and cheerlead to ultimate surrender and neoliberal victory. I expect the UK will be true to the same template.

'The People Don't Know Their True Power'

https://twitter.com/communicipalist/status/1185533324816797697

"So Boris Johnson is refloating the May deal and calling it 'radical' while the coalition of Brexit nay-sayers in Westminster conspire to overthrow democracy by - 1. disregarding 17.4 million votes. 2 - refusing to call an election. Thus with few exceptions our MPs need evicting asap!"

Vote it down.

Fortunately, Syriza suffered a well-deserved defeat.

WATCH: George Galloway - The Mother of All Talkshows (Ep. 18)

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1185976740356603904

Journo Patrick Chrystys on Brexit, Geopolitical analyst Maryam Susli on Syria, and more!

NDPP wrote:

A Parliamentary Dictatorship

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/21/a-parliamentary-dictatorship/

"...We have a Remainer parliament defying the members of a Brexit electorate. MPs are now doing things in parliament that they explicitly told voters in the GE of 2017, they would not do..."

 

Brits See Opportunism of MPs on Brexit

https://youtu.be/BE-cbyl9G3s

"UK PM Boris Johnson is in a showdown with Parliament to move forward with putting his new Brexit deal to a vote or else demanding a snap election. But will the strong-arm tactic work? Former MP George Galloway joins In Question to discuss the Brexit latest."

 

You Were Warned. You Didn't Listen.

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1186717972594905088

"Latest YouGov poll gives the Tories a 17 percentage point lead over Labour among the C2DEs (the occupational working class). Staggering. Labour is hemmorhaging the support of its core vote..."

With the lopsided results of FPTP this will be a blow-out.

Will We Ever Have An Election Again?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/25/will-we-ever-have-an-election-a...

"This has become farcical. This Zombie parliament must end..."

Lapavitsas: Boris' Deal is No Left Exit

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/10/boris-deal-is-no-left-exit

"...From the perspective of the left the worst mistake would be to reject Johnson's deal, only to campaign foursquare for Remain. If the Labour Party fell into this trap, it would be decisively isolated from broad swathes of its working class base, while putting an end to the prospect of socialist policies.

Rather, the left of the Labour Party ought to propose radical amendments to Johnson's deal, including eliminating the role of the European Court, scrapping the neoliberal dreams of Johnson's Free Trade Agreement, and clear terms allowing for industrial policy. There can [be] no socialist radicalism today within the European Union. Even at this late hour, that message ought to be stated loud and clear."

Surely you must agree with this, Ken?

Ask yourself, would the Lib Dems be enjoying their current poll revival if Labour were led by someone instantly and intuitively identifiable as a conviction remainer? Or would remain voters feel no need to decamp to Jo Swinson in that scenario, happily rallying behind Labour instead? To be concise, Johnson yearns for an election because the remain vote is divided – and that is because millions of remainers have looked at Corbyn’s Labour and decided they need to look elsewhere.

Yet the curious thing about British politics just now is that, among Labour supporters, this is barely mentioned in public. To raise it is to bring social media ordure down upon on your head, as if it were improper or even sacrilegious to speak of such things – even though it is truly extraordinary that the party of opposition is not 20 points ahead of a government in office for nine years, so bitterly divided it has expelled 21 of its own MPs, including two former chancellors, and which has failed to deliver on its central promise. Such a government should be bracing itself for a wipeout. Instead, blessed by a record-breakingly weak opposition, it is preparing to win another term.

The diehards will say that to criticise Corbyn in this way is to side with the Tories against the poor and vulnerable. But the opposite is true. To stick with a path that makes five more years of Boris Johnson, and a hard Brexit, more likely is not to side with the poor and the vulnerable – it is to betray them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

Corbyn, unlike Swinson-whose support will collapse once her right-wing positions on almost all issues are exposed during the campaign-has offered the only position that can unite Labour Leave(most of the voters in the Labour heartlands) and Labour Remain(those working under the delusion that being all-out Remain is the only way to oppose xenophobia-it's not, actually, soft Brexit, which would preserve the immigration and human rights ties to the EU while freeing the UK from the unjustifiable constraints on spending taxation,and the ability to nationalize, all of which were the reasons Tony Benn opposed EU membership and all of which are the main reasons "social democratic" parties on the European mainland have totally abandoned social democracy and embraced Thatcherism, a stance which has destroyed popular support for every "social democratic" party and will continue to destroy it, as the EU leadership intended

If the EU could be made anti-austerity, it would be different.

If EU policies could ever be changed at all-they haven't on anything important since the institution was established, other than to be made more right-wing on economics and spending-it would be different.

But on economics, EU economic and spending rules are carved in stone for the rest of eternity and the only socialist position is to get out of those rules until the EU is replaced by a Europe-wide body that is not designed to present socialism from ever happening.

A Labour government can't BE a Labour government under EU rules.

And those of you who are anti-Corbynites don't care.

But go ahead with the abuse-those of you who are continuing to attack Corbyn, knowing that it's too late to change leaders before the snap election and knowing that Labour wouldn't run on a program any different than that from the Tories if anyone the PLP preferred to Corbyn was leading it.  Just go ahead.

Your lot never wanted the Tories defeated...because as "Labour moderates", you never wanted Thatcherism brought to an end.

I didn't lie about anything.

Everything in the EU IS unchangeable.  The fact that none of the economic constraints have been changed since the creation of the institution proves it.  If if was changeable, you wouldn't keep attacking Corbyn on this issue when he has said he would prefer to stay in the EU if it COULD be changed and when you know that the position he takes-a referendum with Remain as an option once Labour is elected-and when what he said proved he wasn't a hidden Leaver.  The man is actually a heartbroken Remainer-he would be conviction Remain if it was possible to be conviction Remain without being conviction "preserve the EU status quo forever".

I respect those in the party who are Remain because they believe it's the only way to oppose xenophobia-it's not-but staying in an unchangeable and permanently right-wing on economics EU means you have to give up ending austerity and reversing Thatcherism.  It is that fact that is the main reason most of the Labour Right is Remain-the antisocialist anti-Corbynites(there's no such thing as a socialist anti-Corbynite) want to stay in the EU because they want to make sure that if Corbyn is elected, he would be unable to do anything to the left of Blair.  

It's possible to negotiate an arrangement that keeps the human rights protections-the ONLY progressive part of the EU-without staying in the economic constraints.  And Boris' no-deal Brexit is dead now with his having had to ask for an extension, so why not admit that it's time to get off Corbyn's case?

As I pointed out above Ken, you told nineteen lies in two posts. Here they are:

1.    the Brexit Party would then win every Labour Leave vote 

2.    and hold those votes for the next twenty years.  

3.    It's not possible to win Labour Leave votes in the Labour heartlands when you take the we-agree-to-give-up-on-socialism "conviction Remain" position.

4.    It's not possible to put Remain over everything else and want a decent society for the working and kept-from-working poor.

5.    Corbyn’s position, whatever you think of Corbyn, is the only sensible one

6.  it's impossible to get a second referendum or Article 50 repeal passed in this parliament, it's enough to stop Boris' "deal".

7. what matters is getting the damn Tories out. But you don't care about that.

8. [it is] a despicable accusation that he's nonchalant at best about a form of bigotry he has fought all of his life. 

9. No one who'd lead Labour as a "conviction Remainer" could possibly be a socialist or oppose austerity in any case.  

10.  Swinson-whose support will collapse once her right-wing positions on almost all issues are exposed during the campaign-

11. "social democratic" parties on the European mainland have totally abandoned social democracy and embraced Thatcherism.

12. EU policies could ever be changed at all-they haven't on anything important since the institution was established, other than to be made more right-wing on economics and spending.

13. But on economics, EU economic and spending rules are carved in stone for the rest of eternity and the only socialist position is to get out of those rules until 

14.the is designed to present socialism from ever happening.

15.  A Labour government can't BE a Labour government under EU rules.

16. And those of you who are anti-Corbynites don't care.

17. it's too late to change leaders before the snap election.

18. Labour wouldn't run on a program any different than that from the Tories if anyone the PLP preferred to Corbyn was leading it.  

19. Your lot never wanted the Tories defeated...because as "Labour moderates", you never wanted Thatcherism brought to an end.

Oh, and not a single one is backed up by any facts or analysis, only your simplistic unsupported assertions, however ridiculous.

The Absurdity of Labour's Enthusiasm For the European Project

https://brexitcentral.com/the-absurdity-of-labours-enthusiasm-for-the-eu...

"I've never been able to understand my party's ignorance of economics and production. We're good at fostering consumption and excellence at the NHS, education, social services and welfare, but appalling at understanding the basic economics of building and sustaining an industrial base on which everything rests. Instead of growing the economy by state backing and export-led growth as competitors have done, we're left behind clinging to a protectionist bloc designed to protect French agriculture and German manufacturing at our expense.

EU membership means no nationalisations, no state aid to protect jobs, no effective regional policy, no massive deficit-spending to stimulate a flagging economy. Instead, Britain must continue to be drained and dragged down by a European Union, once dynamic but now on the brink of recession thanks to its German inspired neo-liberalism. The alternative to breaking out and fighting back is slow, long term decline..."

NDPP wrote:

"The vast majority of Remainer politicians are rated negatively. It might make them pause before asking the public a second time - on anything."

Why shouldn't the UK public be allowed to accept or reject Boris Johnson's deal with the EU as the UK voters never voted for Boris Johnson's deal with the EU?

Four more lies:

1. None of those are lies.

2. [I am] economic privileged

3. [I am]antisocialist

4. [I] still think Blair was right to strip Labour of everything it stood for.

JKR]</p> <p>[quote=NDPP wrote:

"The vast majority of Remainer politicians are rated negatively. It might make them pause before asking the public a second time - on anything."

Why shouldn't the UK public be allowed to accept or reject Boris Johnson's deal with the EU as the UK voters never voted for Boris Johnson's deal with the EU?

[quote=NDPP]

Fair enough. So let Labour stop blocking a general election on it.

Labor will support a December election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/downing-street-signals-compromise-on-potential-general-election-date