17-year old youth dead after being stunned by Police Taser

quote:Originally posted by reglafella:
"M.Spector maybe, said "get rid of the guns too!" or something to that effect and not a single word or sentence more. You've glammed on to that and made that your raison d'etre, so to speak."

Close. What really happened was that I responded to M. Spector, then others glommed onto me.

"Also, if you haven't yet realized it, this is not the place to cheer police brutality under ANY circumstances, even the loved ones protection scenario."

Where did I cheer police brutality?

I "cheered" having armed police. At least until we have unarmed criminals.

Strangely, even being the second person to accuse me of cheering for police brutality isn't considered negative attention. I don't regard that as a trivial accusation.

"Criminals" are people like you and me, maybe you should go to a court house and stay for a day. They are not all Clifford Olsens. They are ordinary people who are charged with various offences from a bar fight to stealing shoes from a Wal mart. Should all these people be killed if they become non compliant or even combative?

Well tasers introduce that possibility!

quote:"Canadians should be very concerned and think twice before they dial, the chance of them being indirectly resonsible for murdering an innocent person and child has sky rocketed."

If you call the cops and they come and taser someone, I can't see how you're the least bit responsible for that.

What you are saying here is if a cop tasers someone and that person dies on your property then don't worry be happy everything is alright as far as the propery owner is concerned, they are not responsible.

quote:"Then we'll take away their fucking guns."

What a great idea. I, for one, am very tired of the cops always taking control of situations and never letting the criminals have their way.

Everything is so clear to you. Criminal=arrest. Cop=good. But the real world is more complex and cops do abuse their powers on a daily basis. Criminals are my son or your daughter and "crimes" are not always clear cut bank robberies.

Sometimes it's someone sitting on a sidewalk who can't answer all the questions being put forth by a police officer.

quote:Could be, but just out of curiosity, what does this kind of vulnerability look like? I assume we're talking about a physical vulnerability?

And I ask because if being agitated or high (or whatever it is you're picturing) makes a person physically more likely to die if tased, that seems to me to be getting close to at least conceding that maybe the whole "excited delirium" thing isn't so laughable after all.

How about just standing in a puddle of water. Or maybe being confronted by two armed police causes you to feel "anxious". Do ya think?

Assuming the police are always right and the person they confront is always in the wrong is wrong dude. The police are NOT always right.

Don't bother saying you never said "Always", cuz it came through in every post you made.

Remember that police work for the state, the government pays them, do you believe the govenment has your best interests at heart?

Thanks for that link Spector. An important point that reglafella appears to miss is exemplified by this story (and also the one that spawned this thread), for disenfranchised minorities the interests of the police are usually quite clearly opposed to their own (afterall the police are charged with their overt oppression). Maybe reglafella's simplistic belief that cops = good as described upthread is easier to maintain because his own interests are closer to those of the police. I've noticed that comfortable white men tend to have a hard time shedding the illusion that cops = good; and I am one myself. I've had the benefit of a few "lessons" to correct this outlook; just step a little farther out side of the lines within which you are required to walk (those lines which the boy murdered in the incident which spawned this thread likely had the misfortune to be born outside of).

"What you are saying here is if a cop tasers someone and that person dies on your property then don't worry be happy everything is alright as far as the propery owner is concerned, they are not responsible."

To be clear, I'm NOT saying "be happy".

I AM saying the homeowner is not responsible.

If a police officer kills someone, whether it's on or off of my property, whether it's because I called them or I didn't, THEY are responsible for what they do. As a citizen, the onus is not on me to be a passive victim.

Are you really telling me that if someone were trying to smash their way into your home, you would choose to NOT call the police? You'd just wait there by the door to see whether the intruder was going to harm you, rob you, or both?

Well, help yourself.

"But the real world is more complex and cops do abuse their powers on a daily basis."

Yes, they do. But I don't believe that's a good enough reason to disarm the police.

"Don't bother saying you never said "Always", cuz it came through in every post you made."

I'm a big boy. If I want to say something, I can type it right here on my keyboard. I don't need you or anyone else putting words in my mouth.

But that seems to be the norm around this place. Why tell the world what you think when you can tell the world what the other person thinks?

Hmm, reglafella. Not that I want to take away that bone you've got such a good grip on, but would you have any remarks about Brian Minchin, the dirt poor father of the 17-year old victim, who will be panhandling this weekend for decent clothes to attend his son's funeral?

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Don't feed the troll......

What D said.....and BTW, I would never call the police if I was raped..that's because I have so much faith in them. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

x

quote:Originally posted by It's Me D:
As someone to whom this has happened I'm afraid I have to burst your bubble: whether or not you call the police you WILL just "just wait there by the door" and if the intruder wants to "harm you, rob you, or both" they WILL do so (unless you are armed and personally able to stop the intruder).

This happened to me, where they, the attempted burglars, thought they would break in through the glass in the basement door.

As I heard the glass break, when they threw a propane tank through it, I met them with a loaded rifle in their faces, as they tried to enter, after undoing the lock through the broken glass in the door. They ran, and I actually fired a shot into the tree trunk as they were running past it. Interestingly, I was furious, but not scared.

But I had just happened to be downstairs, and in the room where the rifles were kept, at the time and do not know what would have happened otherwise though. There was definitely no time to call the police even, until after it was all over. An officer did come though and took a report and that was the end of it from the RCMP perspective and I ever heard from them again about it.

remind:

Sounds like you were lucky. We certainly had no weapons in the house although the police were called within the first minute and arrived well after the intruders had fled (after the break and enter, assault, attempted murder, and robbery). At least you never heard from the police again (disgusting the better outcome!), my previous roomates have been harassed by the police ever since, despite moving, because we had the especially unfortunate luck to be consuming some illegal drugs when the break and enter, assault, attempted murder, and robbery took place; I guess the police found the drugs to be more important [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

quote: Tell Canada that the left agrees that only the criminals should have guns.

But that is your position. If a cop violates the law, the right is always right there defending the violator - the criminal. Their is even a whole slew of movies glorifying police and vigilante murder. The right wing loves crime and criminals. It is why the right never has support for crime prevention but has all kinds of money for prisons where the right wing entertain their fantasies about male prisoners brutalizing and raping each other.

"But that is your position. If a cop violates the law, the right is always right there defending the violator"

Is it? Or is it your imagination that it is?

Because not two whole hours ago I said:

I most surely support the disarming of any individual officer who abuses their power. Presumably, this disarming would be a natural part of immediately firing them.

How could you possibly read that an infer that my position is that criminal cops are OK? I mean, can you read? Do you have some kind of difficulty seeing all these funny shapes and making sense of them.

Is there any kind of policy around here regarding putting words in people's mouths? Yesterday I accused someone of endorsing a horrible thing because they accused me of endorsing a horrible thing, and surely enough, a moderator was calling me on the carpet for it in a flash, but nothing got said otherwise.

I find I'm spending more time responding to the things I've never said than the things I did say.

And I'm sure that for a lot of you the response will be "if you don't like it, go away". Ya, thanks for that. I'm getting the sense that you'd like me to leave. That's pretty clear. Does it occur to you, though, how many people watch you do your damndest to drive new members away if they won't mouth the same little oaths as you do? Do you ever wonder how many people decide that a clique like this just isn't worth their time?

Or is that just fine because you all are all you need, and anyone else is probably just a "troll" you don't need anyway?

quote:do you know if a fund has been started for the family?

Nope. Let me look into it.

ETA: Judging by the remarks on the CBC discussion around the story, there are plenty of people who would like to kill the father as well. Kick 'em when they're down! It's really quite vicious and disgusting.

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Brian Minchin: "Nobody deserves to die that way."

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:Originally posted by reglafella:
I'm getting the sense that you'd like me to leave.

Yikes! It does have a brain!