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How have I proven to be right wing? In fact, I love the fact that we in the Netherlands have powerful labor laws (did you know that if an employer has you work more than 40 hours a week he must give you CTO?), relaxed attitudes on sex and drugs, and provide everyone with the basics for a healthy life, like water that does not need to be boiled. If this makes me right wing, what does that make you?
I doubt my account will be gone soon, provided I stay within the rules. In fact you are the one making unfounded accusations against me.
And I really am from the Netherlands. Check my IP address. You will see where I am. In fact, I will say that I live in the South of the Netherlands, in Brabant province near Belgium and Germany.
Why do I think you're a right wing troll? easy. No progressive would come on a Canadian board and talk about how they won't travel for fear of "gun battles in the streets". Only right wing trolls are that stupid. Left wing progressives would never, ever read a newspaper and decide not to travel because they read about gun shots.
Like I said, stay home. You'll never experience life outside your country but since you can't handle anyone else's country (and did I tell you that there are gun shots in all major cities?) you really are not a traveller at all, just a reactionary troll.
I'm done with this thread (and you) but see, you've managed to ingratiate yourself here already! I'm sure many people here will be thrilled by your progressive stance on travel.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
You seem to equate a lack of desire on my part to no longer visit Toronto to a general lack of desire to visit ANY country. That is a very narrow view, very Toronto-centric.
I mentioned above that I live in the South. I have visited Germany, Belgium and France, so far this YEAR. I think I am able to handle other people's contries. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
In the EU we can cross borders without passports or travel permits. Can you cross into the USA without a passport? Can you vist Europe without passports? No you cannot.
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: pk34th45 ]
Secondly, Toronto centric me obviously can't keep up to vastly superior you. You know, you who obviously had some say in where you were born. You who clearly must have drafted some of those very progressive laws yourself. You must be very proud of that accomplishment. I really think it's uber classy to throw around how much you despise a country you haven't seen, been to, or know nothing about.
But, here I am engaging in conversation with a pompous troll. Again.
This time, I really do leave you to your lovely, magnetic personality. Enjoy your time on this Canadian message board. Try not to let your ego get in the way. We have some expensive nic nacs around here.
Yes, the kind of crime and violence that involves running gunbattles on crowded streets. I have done a Google search on Toronto "toronto+shooting" and came up with this:
Guns and Shootings in Toronto 2008
Mar 15 - 1 dead, five wounded in Toronto shooting.Police said seven or eight shots were fired around 10 p.m. as a group of teens gathered at a townhouse complex on Amaranth Court, south of the Yorkdale Shopping Centre.
Mar 10 - Shortly after midnight a fight occurred in the Yonge St. and Sheppard Ave. area. One man was shot in the leg and taken to Humber River Regional Hospital. Police are looking for the shooter.
Mar 9 - Around 4:45 am, a 16-year-old was shot while in his home in the Shuter and Sackville area of downtown Toronto. The shooter was in the victim's backyard and aimed at him through the window. The youth is in hospital and expected to survive. Police are looking for the shooter.
Feb 24 - Shortly before 1 am, two men were shot in the stomach. The shooting took place at a private party held in a cafe on College Street near Manning Ave. Both men are expected to survive although one is in serious condition. Police are looking for an 18-year-old suspect.
Feb 22 - Around 9:30 pm, a man in his 20s was shot to death in a home in the Markham Rd and Lawrence Ave area of Scarborough. Police are looking for several suspects who were seen fleeing the area.
Feb 17 - Around 6 am, several shots were fired in the Finch and Neilson area of Scarborough. When police arrived they found the body of a man in his 20s just outside a home where an all-night party was being held. Witnesses reported four men fleeing the area in a vehicle at the time of the shooting.
Feb 10 - Shortly after midnight, a 21-year-old man was shot in the chest. The shooting happened in a parking lot of a community centre near the Kennedy subway station. The man was able to flag down an ambulance who took him to hospital with serious but non-life-threatening injuries. Police are examining surveillance tapes.
Feb 6 - Around 11 pm, a 30-year-old man was shot multiple times while sitting in a car at 160 Chalkfarm Dr in the Jane and Wilson area. He was rushed to hospital in critical condition. Police, who believe it may have been a case of mistaken identity are looking for 2 suspects who were seen fleeing the scene.
Feb 1 - Shooting - Around 1:30 pm, a shootout occurred during an apparent home invasion in a high-rise located in the Danforth Rd. and Eglinton Ave. area. Two men were killed while a third was taken to Sunnybrook Hospital in critical condition. All men who were in their late teens and early 20s were known to police. Police are looking for 3 more suspects.
Jan 22 - Shooting - Around 8 pm, police found a teen on Jane St. near Chalkfarm Dr. who had been shot in the head. He was vital signs absent but was revived and rushed to Sunnybrook Hospital where he was put on life support. Police believe he may have been shot in a car and then dumped out.
Jan 17 - Shooting - Around 6 pm a man in his 40s was shot in front of a grocery store on Gerrard St. E. near Broadview. Police believe he was an innocent bystander that was caught in a crossfire. He was rushed to St. Michael's Hospital where he was pronounced dead. Police are looking for 2 suspects who were seen fleeing the area.
Jan 13 - Shooting - Around 4 am, a 16-year-old boy was shot in the foot as he was leaving a party in an apartment building on Kipling Ave. Police are seeking 2 suspects.
Jan 12 - Shooting - Around 10 pm, a man was shot in the stomach in an alley in the Bathurst St. and Eglinton Ave area of the city. He was rushed to hospital with serious but non-life-threatening injuries. Police are looking for three suspects.
Jan 12 - Shooting - Shortly after 1 am, a man was shot in the head on a sidewalk on Yonge St near the Brass Rail strip club. He was pronounced dead at the scene. Police are looking for a suspect who was seen leaving the area at the time of the shooting.
Jan 5 - Shooting - Around 4:45 am, a 27-year-old man was dropped off at York Finch Hospital after having been shot. He told police that he had been shot in front of a bar in the Jane and Sheppard area of North York. There have been no arrests.
OK, now I did one for Amsterdam:
Two Brits arrested for shooting arrows to pedestrians in Amsterdam center.
Big difference.
So, if you were in charge of increasing tourists to Toronto, do you think these statistics will make your job easier or more difficult?
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: pk34th45 ]
a: You are from the Netherlands
b: In some important areas of social policy development the Netherlands is more evolved than Canada, and recently our government has been looking in the wrong direction for a suitable model.
c: You know bugger all about Canada, and are too entrenched in your opinion to learn.
d: Rather than describing you as a right wing troll, I would characterize you as likely to the left, but you're also really rude. As in most places in the world, including I'm sure the Netherlands, rude people don't make friends easily.
As my Dad came from Holland, (Heemstede) I know lots of people from the Netherlands, and will attest that most of them are really quite nice.
Actualy, I am learning very much about Canada. I am reading newspapers, and looking up various statistics on Canada.ca. I am watching the National on CBC.ca. Short of actually visiting Canada, I feel I am learning a great deal. I believe that to truly understand a people you need to live among them, but come on. That's impossible to do except for maybe 1 or 2 in one's entire life. So the media and Internet will have to do.
In Amsterdam, there are places you just don't go at night because you'll be mugged; I have never experienced this in Toronto.
But the biggest shame in the Netherlands is the grotesque treatment of Muslims and the resultant conflict that has emerged in recent years between traditional Dutch and new Muslim immigrants.
I would urge my Dutch friend here to visit Toronto, and truly experience a multicultural city.
There are problems here, yes, but the problems in the Netherlands are quite a match. Miss Toronto, and you'll miss one of the best cities on this planet. And I've been to, and lived in, many many cities around the world.
Was thinking why would you as a progressive person want to attend the Calgary Stampede, surely a person of your upstanding progressive credentials would want to boycott such a inhumane activity?
Unless of course you are going to Calgary anyway on business, like perhaps oil business with Royal Dutch Shell?
Are you saying there are no places in Toronto where you will be mugged, or are you saying you have never been to the places at night where you will be mugged?
You know I did some research on this very thing a couple of days ago, and I agreee It is a barbaric practice, almost like the bullfights or dogfighting. The horses die, or go over cliffs on the cattle runs. Would not be tolerated here. So the Stampede is off my list.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Sure, you've got Calgary pegged there. Wait... Cows going over cliffs on cattle runs? Have you been watching Eastwood movies to do your Calgary research? [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] For a 'progressive' person, you're incredibly quick to accept generalizations and stereo-types, no?
Wasn't Amsterdam in the process of shutting down it's redlight district?
Oh well, there are a good many other things to do in Calgary, while you are there anyway, and you can always pretend you are at the CN Tower, by visiting the Calgary Tower.
I read a story about some horses that were on a cattle drive, and they fell into a river. It was a cattle drive related o the Stampede. I will see if I can find it again. It was 2 or 3 yars ago if I remember the story well.
Here it is:
The Stampede is a celebration of cowboy life but, like Pamplona's Bull Run, is open to criticism for its treatment of animals. (This year, nine horses drowned as they were being herded to the Stampede).
Metro.co.uk
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: pk34th45 ]
Oh Yeah, I remember something about that. It was sort of a mock cattle drive they did within the city if I recall correctly, that went awry and some cattle drowned.
Ya, I was there during the Stampede a few years back too, about 25 I think, watched the parade, and watched my daughter start a stampede, during the parade, her little 3 year old arm went up hucking a orange juice can into the midst of a bunch of horses who were carrying flags and going by us...her little friend thought it looked like fun, so he threw his too. And that ended our time at the parade. But we had a great 4 hr lunch at the Tower instead, the kids liked it way more than the parade actually.
However, I must admit that the fireworks each night are very good, not on par with Vancouver's though.
And we managed to dodge the falling cows on our way out, but not by much.
From Calgary, East to the mountains, or West?
Promise me you'll never lead a cattle drive. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Oh crap! Sorry, I meant west! [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img]
? I guess it depends what side you're looking at as far as boring goes... I'm assuming you haven't been on the red mile. Population wise, it's one of the youngest cities that got flooded with oil money (rig pigs will bring back 5k to blow on a weekend and then head back to the rigs for a couple weeks to repeat the process)... Really, it's a city looking for an excuse to party. The Folk Fest is worth checking out (Late June held in Princess Island Park... pretty much right in the Calgary downtown).
I guess it'll depend when you were there... The boring little town that I was born in is now transforming into a metro.
I recall it... Forget if it was as part of the stampede, some culture demo, or something else. Might be hard to beleive, but there are actually ranchers here that do these things weekly (The stories from my mom herding holstiens with an oldsmobile are hilarious).
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]
Only two of those were downtown, one at 4:45 a.m., one at "Shortly after 1 am."
I would not hang out in downtown Toronto at those hours. I have taken my granddaughter up the CN Tower with no concerns. There are parts of Toronto I would not take her even in daylight hours. They are not tourist areas. I really don't think you need worry.
Yea, I was reading that and thinking WTF??!!
The Stampede used to drive the horses in from the stampede ranch to the grounds. The incident people are talking about was that a few years back a CP train lit off its whistle just as the horses were crossing the bow river on a bridge. The horses stampeded and a few were killed.
The stampede people were really broken up about it because they really care about the welfare of the animals.
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]
Very well, the tourist areas are safe. But Old Goat castigated me for not knowing anything about Canada, and not having a desire to learn. I disproved this claim, but really how can someone truly learn about a people if they only visit the tourist areas? Can you imagine someone visiting Cuba by only going to Club Med (or whatever it is called) and then saying you understand them? That would be total bullshit. In the same vein, if I were to simply visit the CN Tower, and not Janne and Finch Streets, could I really say I have an understanding of Toronto? If you only visited the windmills of North Holland (which are quite spectacular in their own right) could you say you have an understanding of Dutch culture?
Now that I think upon it more, does anyone truly understand their own country, if it is a large sprawling place or even medium sized like the Netherlands. I hardly ever visit Amsterdam or know people from there, so can I really be sure that their views are like mine? I know many people inmy own city, and I think I have a good understanding of the overall body politic, but start to spread out and I cannot really be sure. Are we all just islands, the tribe, and everyone else the "other"? There are some villages in the far south of the Netherlands, in the swamplands, that were virtually isolated until the 1950s. The inhabitants could not really venture too far because they would get lost and die in the forrest swamps. Even today they have quite diffeent outlooks on the world from village to village, despite 50 years of good roads.
I thought it was kind of a weird example to pick... If a person gets killed in a traffic accident on the way to the stampede, does that count as human right abuses caused by the stampede as well?
Now if he was to pick one of the incidents where the animal is put down on the track...
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]
Added to PK:
Would you get any better understanding of the culture by visiting certain areas you wouldn't want to be in at 2am? Every city has it's dangerous locations, why would you consider not visiting a location because it has some place that you probably don't want to be alone at 2am at? You'll also notice most shootings have a history or reason behind it and isn't just random people. It's a pretty flimsy reason to avoid Toronto for... Although it's interesting to see what our society looks like to an outsider like this. Gotta love our media
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]
Jane Creba was not a media invention. Luckily there has been nothing further like that in the past 26 months, or it wouldn't be just outsiders avoiding Toronto.
[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]