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I live in The Netherlands

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oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001
quote: Very well, the tourist areas are safe. But Old Goat castigated me for not knowing anything about Canada, and not having a desire to learn. I disproved this claim, but really how can someone truly learn about a people if they only visit the tourist areas?

Oh for heaven sake, Wilf is from Port Hope! Kinda says it all. A charming little boutique town I'll admit, and the only crime there is what they charge in the boutiques. I do enjoy going there though.

But anyway, Like I said somewhere on this thread, my work takes me everywhere. I'm in Malvern once or twice a week. I used to get over to the Jane/Finch area regularly. I'm always in public housing developments around Scarborough. I don't feel unsafe. My personal opinion is that these neighbourhoods leave a lot to be desired aesthetically, but in lots of cases there's good grassroots movement going to help make them nice vital neighbourhoods. There are poverty issues for sure, but nothing like in some American big cities. In terms of visiting from another country though, unless your interest is urban planning and how to avoid pitfalls, these would be rather boring areas to visit.

You'd like Port Hope though. Catch a live performance at the refurbished Capitol Theater followed by dinner at any of a fine choice of restaurants, or just enjoy an ice cream cone and a gentle breeze on a warm sunny afternoon down by the Ganaraska River. (that was for you Wilf [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


Noise
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Joined: May 16 2006
quote: Jane Creba was not a media invention. Luckily there has been nothing further like that in the past 26 months, or it wouldn't be just outsiders avoiding Toronto.

Ooops sorry... Never ment to imply that the Jane Creba shooting was a media invention. Was speaking to how our rating seeking news stations affect how people from other nations view ours.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001
quote:Originally posted by pk34th45:

Yes, the kind of crime and violence that involves running gunbattles on crowded streets. I have done a Google search on Toronto "toronto+shooting" and came up with this:

The long list above

OK, now I did one for Amsterdam:

Two Brits arrested for shooting arrows to pedestrians in Amsterdam center.

Big difference.


You might want to try translating the term into Dutch before you do your search. I did, using babelfish.altavista.com and came up with a similarly long list - and I'm not certain babelfish is giving me the most apt term (het ontspruiten?) to search.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]


oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001
This is really descending into one of the stupider threads now open. Not that I've read all the others.


pk34th45 if you come I hope you have a nice time. You can get very good beer in this country. That's only because we import a lot of it from your country. If you don't though, I hope you have a nice life.

Pissing matches about which large an relatively safe city is the relatively safest is getting a little threadbare. However, everyone's being reasonably civil, so WTF. If this thread starts to get a trifle silly, it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen.


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
I will definitely be visiting Canada this Summer. My vacation time slot was approved last week, and I'm planning a trip for July. As I said above I will be visiting Sarnia, then going out to the Western Provinces. Lots to see. Yoho and a place called Field British Columbia.

Ciao.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002
quote:Originally posted by pk34th45:
I will be visiting Sarnia.

To my surprise Sarnia does not seem to have a Heritage Conservation District, although they do have a Sarnia Heritage Committee and a nice Walking Tour site. Also the nearby Village of Oil Springs seems to be about to be so designated.
quote:Originally posted by oldgoat:
You'd like Port Hope though. Catch a live performance at the refurbished Capitol Theater followed by dinner at any of a fine choice of restaurants, or just enjoy an ice cream cone and a gentle breeze on a warm sunny afternoon down by the Ganaraska River. (that was for you Wilf [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

Indeed the Capitol Theatre (note Canadian spelling) is one of Canada's only two surviving operational "Atmospheric" Theatres. Eat your heart out, Sarnia.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


500_Apples
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Joined: Jun 3 2006
This is a very silly thread. All this because of one reaction by an ignorant European, who seems very likely to be a creative troll. I'd like to visit Singapore one day... I don't think I'll google "Singapore politics forums" before going, spoiling for a fight, that sounds kind of absurd.

Personally I'd love to visit Toronto sometime, it's got a lot of art going on, and I bet there's really good cuisine as well. I'm as likely to get killed visiting Toronto as I am from crossing the street. I would rather not live there however. Due to my traumatic CEGEP-University experience (2001-2007) a long-term goal of mine is to end up in a city where I can live in a nice place but not commute for all the hours of the week. That means probably ex-nay on any city larger than a million.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
quote:Originally posted by pk34th45:
I will definitely be visiting Canada this Summer. My vacation time slot was approved last week, and I'm planning a trip for July. As I said above I will be visiting Sarnia, then going out to the Western Provinces. Lots to see. Yoho and a place called Field British Columbia.

Ciao.

Please don't be afraid to pick other possible vacation destinations. That said, Sarnia would be a great place to start, on your westward journey, as at the very least this will direct you through the USA, which is a wonderful place to dodge bullets and avoid lethal bodily harm. In particular you could start in Windsor, and visit the "Combat Zone" and the travel west to Chicago, a lovely little town to be sure. That said for someone of your dispositon Sarnia might be good since it would give you an opportunity to go a little west and then straight North, missing most of what makes the USA interesting, and where you can visit sunny little Sioux St. Marie which is a town partly made up of an Indian Reserve where you can visit one of the local hang outs and pass along your concerns about conditions on the reserve, which imo are largely valid. However, you may find that they make some personal "observations" about that overall problem of arrogant Europeans newly arriving in Canada, jaunting about here and there as if they own the place.


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
quote:Originally posted by 500_Apples:
I'd like to visit Singapore one day... I don't think I'll google "Singapore politics forums" before going, spoiling for a fight, that sounds kind of absurd.

I found this site because it professes to be progressive, like most people in my country. Discussion of my travel plans was simply an ice breaker. But now I see that criticism of Canada is not tolerated here, despite the fact that criticism of other countries is widespread (justifiably in most case I may add).

Yes, I believe my country and its people are more progressive than Canadians. You talk a lot, but still force Indians to boil their drinking water. Sorry if this sounds "rude". I guess I am a very rude person for pointing this out.

But it's still true.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
I don't see what is so "progressive" about nationalist jingoism. But maybe that is just me.

As I said, why not head up to the Sioux and show your solidarity? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

But that is all a long way off in the summer, so perhaps you can help us out a bit here, in terms of how to structure compensation. See there is a great ongoing debate in Canada, about what kind of compensation should be paid to native peoples who have been ripped-off by the colonial process, not something that that the Dutch are complete strangers too. For example native people don't pay taxes, and are also supported by numerous loans and grant unavailable to other Canadians. But I agree, this is not nearly enough, considering the difference between what was taken, and how it is now on many reserves.

I am sure "progressive" Dutch people have something to teach us in regards to dealing with the legacy of colonialism. So I have a question.

How much do you take out of your pocket evey year to pay off the compensation to the people of Indonesia and Borneo? I am not so up-to-speed on Dutch history and policy, but I am sure that a truly progressive country like the Netherlands could give us some insight into how to deal with the colonial legacy. Surely, the Dutch must have shown their deep gratitude to the indiginous peoples of the Dutch colonies somehow, considering that the wealth generated there has contributed so much to the burgeoning industrialized state, its banks and its oil companies that pretty much sit at the core of the Dutch economy today?

Or is that all paid off now? Certainly the Dutch didn't just cut and run when the going was good, did they?

Or do you just send them bottled water, and pamphlets on the usefulness of euthanasia, and legalized prostitution? This gives me an idea... why not hand deliver these items yourself this summmer? Trust me! In Indonesia they just love the Dutch! Rather than worrying about smelly stampedes, and the possibility of getting gunned down in Toronto you could hang around Jarkarta for a few weeks.


Jakarta -- the Dutch are such experts on colonialism

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
Sorry, but we cut and ran in far East.

But we did things differently with the Antilles. There were referendums in the Netherlands Antilles a few years ago where the vast majority decided to remain a part of the Kingdom (independence received only about 5% of the vote if I recall correctly).

Then we reached an agreement with just about all the islands to disolve the Netherlands Antilles by December 2008 and form new autonomous entities, still part of the Kingdom. Something like 1 billion euros will be given to the new states for poverty reduction and infrastructure.

I think we are doing it right this time.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
What about the war reperations for the vicious anti-insurgency campaign that the Dutch ran in Indonesia from 1945 to 1949, after being liberated from German occupation by the evil Canadians, when Indonesia declared independence?

How much comes out of your pocket to cover that, Mr. Progresivo?

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
Like I said, we cut and ran from the far East. As far as I know we don't send any money to Jakarta for reparations.

Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
I see that at least by this example, our Dutch friend establishes that Canadians can also be matched and even excelled by the Dutch in the fine art of liberal hypocrisy.

Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Not even "sorry." The Japanese managed that.

pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
quote:Originally posted by Cueball:
I see that at least by this example, our Dutch friend establishes that Canadians can also be matched and even excelled by the Dutch in the fine art of liberal hypocrisy.

Can you explain this? I have been honest here, and pointed out the we no longer have anything to do with the Far East since the 1940s. Since that time there have been many significant changes in the outlook of the Dutch people. We used to be very conservative, now are quite progressive. No one can change the past, only try to make the present and future better. So today the Dutch treat the colonies much differenly than the Dutch of 60 years ago.

That is called improvement.

Who knows, maybe in the future we will help Jakarta out. I don't know. But if this is your only criticism of my country, the way we relate to a former colony, then I think that we are still much better than Canada.

The way we relate to our dependencies TODAY is very progressive. The way Canadians relate to their Indian population TODAY is the way we treated our colonized people 60 years ago.

So I ask you, who has made progress?


The Wizard of S...
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Joined: Jul 27 2002
I think "The Netherlands" sounds cool. Like someplace Beetlejuice would live in, or Queen Beryl might reign over.

Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
quote:Originally posted by pk34th45:

Can you explain this? I have been honest here, and pointed out the we no longer have anything to do with the Far East since the 1940s. Since that time there have been many significant changes in the outlook of the Dutch people. We used to be very conservative, now are quite progressive. No one can change the past, only try to make the present and future better. So today the Dutch treat the colonies much differenly than the Dutch of 60 years ago.

That is called improvement.

Who knows, maybe in the future we will help Jakarta out. I don't know. But if this is your only criticism of my country, the way we relate to a former colony, then I think that we are still much better than Canada.

The way we relate to our dependencies TODAY is very progressive. The way Canadians relate to their Indian population TODAY is the way we treated our colonized people 60 years ago.

So I ask you, who has made progress?

Bullshit. Today, the "progressive" state of the Netherlands can say sorry to the people of Indoensia. Today, the "progressive" state of the Netherlands can agree to pay compensation. Tomorrow, you would then put away your travel guides because you would likely be that much poorer because of it.

Face it. You just are not willing to pay the price.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Canada Apologizes for Century of Native Assimilation Policy

quote: (IPS) OTTAWA -- The Canadian government has apologized to the country's 1.5 million Native people for decades of mistreatment that included attempts to stamp out their culture and assimilate Indians and mixed race people.
In a ceremony in Canada's Parliament building on Jan. 6, Native leaders and government ministers pledged to work together to try to heal the damage done to Native people and their culture. Indian leaders condemned the government for its 80-year program of taking children from native families and sending them to often abusive government-run schools.

During the colonial period, the 650 aboriginal nations in Canada were driven to reservations, usually in isolated, unproductive regions of the country. Native populations declined drastically until the 1940's, languages were lost and traditional ceremonies were outlawed.

Minister of Indian Affairs Jane Stewart read a "Statement of Reconciliation," that acknowledged the damage done to the Native population -- including the hanging of Louis Riel after he led a rebellion of Indian and mixed-race people in western Canada in 1885. But the government apology stopped short of pardoning Riel, something Native leaders have demanded for decades.

Residential schools update, March 2007

quote: The Government of Canada will pay 100% of all compensation to eligible former students, both the Common Experience Payments and any compensation for abuse claims awarded under the Independent Assessment Process.

Something. Not much it is true.

On the other hand the "progessive" state of the Netherlands, has yet even to formerly recognize that Indoensia declared indpendence on August 17th, 1945, and not in 1949, most likely because that would mean recognizing the fact that anti-insurgency campaign of 1945-1949 was in fact an illegal war of agression atainst a sovereign state, which it would like have to pay reparations for, if Indonesia decided to pursue such compensation.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
quote:Originally posted by Cueball:

Face it. You just are not willing to pay the price.

Again I will be honest, but I will ask the same of you at the end.

If paying reparations to every person in Indonesia meant that we would have to give up our social welfare programs, like medical insurance, social housing subsidies, educational subsidies, public transport subsidies and everything else, then yes we would not be willing to pay the price.

And now honesty from you, please Cueball. Are you prepared for Canada to pay the Indian population fair market rate for all of the land that was taken from them? Would that even be possible? What services would your government need to cut to pay the price? Are you prepared to see social programs gutted to pay off the historical wrong?


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Well the fact is that a large number of our social welfare programs are directly targetted at compensating, or otherwise dealing with the problem of the colonial legacy of Canada. An example is quoted above. While on the other hand not one red cent comes out of your pocket or the pocket of Shell executives to pay for the occupation, colonization, exploitation, or damage done by the Dutch, their agencies, and their companies to Indonesia.

Not a dime.

Fine, feel free to criticize Canada and its treatement of native people, today, or in the past, or even tomorrow, much of the is justified But don't pronouce your opinions on the basis that the Dutch are somehow morally superior in this regard, since they have not done one damn thing to compensate the people of "the Indies," and you know it.

Sermons are free.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
quote:Originally posted by Cueball:
Well the fact is that a huge number of our social welfare programs are directly targetted at compensating, or otherwise dealing with the problem of the colonial legacy of Canada. An example is quoted above.

Well Cuebal, it has been interesting talking to you. I answered your statement about not being willing to pay the price.

But you never answered my question about whether you would be willing to pay fair market rate for all the land taken from the Indians.

I think we are done for now, unless you wish to answer my question.

I will say that although you are passionate about how well Canadians treat the Indians, you haven't stooped to personal attacks.

Thank you
Bedankt!


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
I don't think "we treated them well" but we do pay a price, or part of it, at least. The Dutch do not pay a cent.

If the price we pay is enough or not is a constant issue of debate in this country, and I for one think we could do a lot more. But, when was the last time that a progressive politician in the Netherlands raised the issue of compensating the Indonesians for the scars you left on those people?

So, if you are going to come along and criticize, fine, but don't pretend that the Dutch are in some superior moral universe in terms of colonialism. What do they actually teach you about Dutch colonialism in school? Anything at all?

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
Unfortunately Cueball we are at the point where I would like your answer to my question. I answered your statement honestly.

Are you willing to pay the Indians fair market rate for all the land that was taken from them? The question is somewhat longer up the thread.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
That is not the issue. The issue is your moralizing from a position of moral superiority. We do pay compensation. The Dutch do not. You are not arguing from a position of moral strength, here, but one of extreme weakness. Dutch Government does not pay, (you do not pay) and the Canadian government does, (I pay) however limited that may appear.

This would not be an issue here had you not made the superiority of the Dutch central to your point.

Your questions begs the arguement. It is rhetorical. Bottom line is that I do not think making compensation to Native Canadians requires the destruction of this country or it economy. This arguement is used time and time again, in Canada in exactly the same manner, to preserve the status quo, and justify not paying a cent of compensation, just as you are doing now to justify not paying any compensation to the people of Indoensia.

Now if you want to confront this issue on a different level, why not head on over to the Aboriginal Issues forum and discuss it with Native Canadians.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004
Interesting contentions by our friend from the Netherlands, in the face of what Royal Dutch Shell is doing in the Amazon basin, and indeed in respect to FN's territory here in Canada, and to the rest of Indigenous populations around the world.

quote:Absolutely no substantial legal provision has been made for indigenous people and to date companies involved have showed little inclination to cooperate with them beyond offering low-paying, hazardous jobs on survey
or wildcatting crews. Claims by an Agu aruna Indian gravely injured while working for geophysical contractor Halliburton have gone unanswered.
Royal Dutch Shell has recently re-initiated operations in the huge central jungle Camisea field, where several native laborers were injured and even killed as a result of accidents during exploration in the mid-1980s.


Some recent contracts signed for jungle operations in native rainforest areas that bear watching include:


*Royal Dutch Shell in the Camisea field in Cuzco Department

http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/region/news/arc/lasnet/1994/0267.html

http://www.skeenawatershed.com/projects/sacredheadwaters/

or this one is good below to see what Royal Dutch shell is heiniously doing around the world.

http://shelltruth.com/index_engels.html

quote:It is our understanding that Royal Dutch Shell is planning to proceed with coalbed methane drilling in the Sacred Headwaters this year. This raises some important issues.

The Sacred Headwaters, located in the northwestern region of British Columbia, Canada, (an area also referred to as the Klappan) has significant ecological values. It is the headwaters of three great salmon watersheds
– those of the Stikine, Skeena and Nass Rivers. Skeena River wild salmon alone contribute $110 million annually to the local economy. The Sacred Headwaters is part of the Spatzizi ecosystem, one of the largest intact
predator-prey ecosystems left in BC. This rich and diverse area provides important habitat for BC ‘s largest population of woodland caribou as well as bears, moose and wolves.

In British Columbia, there is currently no commercial production of coalbed methane. In other jurisdictions such as Wyoming, New Mexico, and, more recently, Alberta, coalbed methane developments have fragmented landscapes, contaminated fresh water aquifers and disrupted ecosystems. Coalbed methane has never been developed in a wild salmon watershed.
Both British Columbia's regulations for coalbed methane and their enforcement remain woefully inadequate.

http://www.earthworksaction.org/publications.cfm?pubID=281


pk34th45
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Joined: Mar 2 2008
Did you know that there was a huge protest against Shell in December here in the Netherlands about the very issues above. Organized by the Greens, who are a somewhat popular party here.

Not minimize what Shell is doing but if it was not Shell it would be Exxon or Petro Canada. Until people stop buying 8 cylinder monsters and commuting alone in their cars the oil companies are going to continue doing this.

Think gobally and act locally. I ride public transport or my bicycle for just about all of my travel needs. This is possible in the Netherlands because we have made massive investments in public transit. There are even dedicated bike lanes, separated from car traffic by raised curbs with there own signals and intersections.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004
Oh for pete's sake, you did minimize it, in order to try an play holier than thou. Heads up, you can't, and neither can we, but at least we progressives here in Canada are honest about our countries failings and do not try and tout a small protest against the world's second largest corporation as being the personification of progressiveness.

Also, we have dedicated bike bike lanes in Canada, even in small towns. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]


N.Beltov
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Joined: May 25 2003
I'm reminded of an experience back in 1983 or thereabouts. A fellow student, the son of a brain surgeon, from Argentine came forth with the most outstanding analysis of British colonialism and imperialism I'd come across since reading Karl Marx.

About the Argentine military regime, disappeared persons, not so much.


cdn.infidel
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Joined: Mar 19 2008
pk34th45

Je kan hier overall makkelijk op bezoek gaan. Maar net als bijna overal moet je uit de zwarte en de arabieren buurten blijven en dan ben je fijn af. Het is hier een heel mooie en ontzettend groot land. Als je nog nooit hier bent geweest ken je je eigen niet voorstellen hoe groot en uitgebreid het hier is. Veel plezier met je vakantie als je komt. Ik woon een uur buiten Sarnia en kan echt zeggen dat je je eigen wel goed vermaakt als je hier bent. Veel geluk, Doei.


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