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Syndicate
Don't take this personally because it is not you, it is the argument. I really, really hate that argument.
[Begin Rant]
First of, all these new light bulbs -- the ones we're driving to the giant Wal-Mart that sits on what was once a woodland, where do they come from? How did they get here, from there? Where from here did they arrive to first? How did they get to that Wal-Mart way out there beside the cow pasture?
And if China is building two coal plants a week, how many of those coal plants provide the energy to power the factories to produce CFCs for our drive out to the country for the purpose of replacing every bulb in our home?
It is only a little bit of mercury in the bulb. And it is only a little bit of nuclear waste and a little bit of endocrine disruptors and a little bit of contaminants and just a hint of CO2, really.
The melting of snows feed rivers. It all goes to the same place and becomes part of the stew in which we are all immersed. When is just a little too much?
The solution? Spend less. Keep your incandescents but leave them off except when you're in the room. It is called conservation. Turn your heat down. Wear a sweater. Turn off the TV and read a book. Finished with the computer? Turn it off. Buy used where possible, recycle, and always buy local.
But you've heard it all before!
Look, it isn't really that hard. Here is the concept, we can't consume ourselves out of a problem we've consumed ourselves into. We can't dig ourselves out of a hole.
[/End Rant]
Thanks, I needed that.
Fair question, except that the same question could as easily be asked about incandescent bulbs (or LED lamps, for that matter).
See above. In fact, since CFLs last much longer than incandescents, fewer would need to be produced, so less Chinese coal would need to be burned to produce them.
And if you read my previous post, you'd see that if you live in an area where coal is used to produce electricity, using incandescent bulbs will produce a bigger bit of mercury, and a bigger bit of CO2 to boot.
I agree with all of this except the "keep your incandescents" part. Use CFLs and turn them off when you leave the room. Conservation is a big part of it, but energy efficiency is part of it too. It's not either-or- we have to do both.
[ 09 November 2007: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]
CFL and LED bulbs will allow us to use more of them and use more energy in the long run.
There is something to that, scooter. A comedian once opined that driving would be a lot safer if we got rid of seat belts and put a big sharp spike in the middle of the steering column.
And, hockey might actually be safer if helmets were banned.
I think it is true, too that if we have a conservation program to encourage people to buy new, more efficient appliances, it has to include a measure that insures the old appliances are destroyed.
But I don't think this phenomenon is at play when it comes to replacing incandescent bulbs people are currently using with compact fluorescents or Light Emitting Diodes.
Mind you, I have increased my house hold lighting with the advent of LED's. However, they are the garden lights that are solar powered.
Okay, Okay, I know. Someday the battery will have to be replaced, and the old one discarded. But I have a politically correct disposal method for that.
I'm saving them to throw at cops the next time I'm in a protest.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
But, can’t a person do the same thing with CFLs (i.e., use them only when you’re in the room)? CFLs use so much less electricity than incandescent bulbs, they last about ten times as long as an incandescent bulb, and the mercury in a CFL is not a problem if a person simply recycles them.
If a person is going to cut the time a light is on from, say, three hours per day to one hour per day, why not use a CFL during that one hour rather than a more wasteful incandescent?
The same goes for cars. Buying a used, mechanically sound vehicle, maintaining it, and then restricting its use to the greatest extent possible is a magnitude better than ditching your car and buying a brand new Prius.
Is the purpose to reduce and conserve, or to feel good about not reducing and conserving?
Okay, I understand what you're saying. Replace burned out lights but don't replace perfectly good lights.
Compact fluorescents come in various shades. I think for a dinning room or living room, you can get a warm incandescent simulation. You can also get "daylight" simulations, which has a bit more blue in it. I like that for certain applications, like the back entrance way and the bathroom. But, Rebecca West finds it a bit institutional for her taste. Fortunately, our differences in tastes for subtle shades of light does not constitute a deal breaker for us.
It all depends. If that 60 watt incandesent bulb still burns another 1000 hours it will use 60Kw of electricity. If your electricity comes from coal that would amount to burning appr. 45 lbs of coal to generate that electricity. If you had replaced that bulb with a CFL light you would reduced the coal use by 33 lbs.
What I did was replace my incandesent bulbs with CFL lights where practical and kept the incandesent bulbs for replacement use in those places where the CFL's are impractical, such as outdoor lights for example.
What will the future bring?
With a bit of Genetic manipulation we might grow light organs. Or night vision coating on our glasses. Or have trained glow worms on the ceiling. Maybe a coating that can store and release light, much like a battery can store electricity for later use.
But you don't conserve? You just burn that 1000 hours off all at one time? Zippo, presto, 33 pounds of CO2?
What is the cost in CO2 of producing a brand new light bulb, in China, to transport it across the ocean, to be inventoried and then shipped to regional warehouses, to be tracked and shipped to stores, for you to drive to the store to replace a perfectly good bulb that doesn't need to be on for 1,000 hours?
Replacing good, working bulbs is no solution to simply turning the light out.
And mercury? Read this.
China. Probably the largest emitter of CO2 gases pumping out so much brand new stuff for the North American consumer market including almost all the compact fluorescents you will find on the store shelves.
You lost me here. To get 1000 hours of light from a 60 watt incandesent uses about 45 lbs of coal, to get the same 1000 hours of light from a CFL uses only 12 lbs of coal. How did that not mean a reduction in CO2 production?
I am not sure about the carbon cost associated with the production of incandesent versus CFL,s. My estimate is about 5 lbs for the incandesent versus 15 lbs for the CFL. Transport cost from China? Here too I have to make a guestimate. Since a CFL will outlast eight incandesents, but is a bit larger then an incandesent, I figure the incandesents will use six time more carbon to get here from China then a CFL. Let us say one lbs carbon for the CFL versus six lbs carbon for the Incandesents. Then you have the packaging, again that will be about six time more for the incandesent since one needs eight times more incandesents for the same amount of light.
Now you have to figure the carbon costs associated with trips to your local store, replacing the light bulbs, getting rit of the packaging, disposing of the mercury in the CFL and the lead soldering in the incandesent. The demands placed on the electrical grit.
As far as I can see from a CO2 perspective replacing incandesents now, even if they are not burned out, makes sense. Especialy so if one can use up the incandesents in locations where CFL's do not function verywell.
After years of giving consumer "incentives" to switch from incandescent bulbs to CFL's, Toronto Hydro has finally decided to offer a "recycling program" for used, unbroken CFL's. They have set up two - count 'em, two - locations where CFL's can be dropped off. Both of them are at Hydro-owned buildings, at 14 Carlton St. and 5800 Yonge. And, for your further convenience, they are open 9 am to 5 pm, Monday to Friday!
So all that energy you saved by using CFL's can now be burned off by making a return trip to one of these locations to drop off your dead bulb, so that its mercury doesn't end up in the landfill. That's a $4.50 round trip on the TTC.
But I guess you could make it worth your while by saving up burned out CFL's for about 6 or 7 years so you'd be able to dispose of more than one at a time...
Oh, and another thing. You have to bring your CFL in a sealed plastic bag - just in case the bulb breaks. The plastic bag, we are assured, will also be recycled.
And, Hydro breathlessly reassures us, this recycling is done free of charge! [bolding is theirs], as if we don't pay for it anyway through our Hydro bills.
The first rule of recycling programs is: Make it easy and convenient to participate. Hydro hasn't got the message.
Edited to change CFC to CFL. These eco-abbreviations are so confusing!
[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
If I had the bills for them, and kept track of which came from where, I could simply return them each to their place of purchase for warranty replacement instead. I don't think I've ever had one last much more than 2 years, though they guarantee them for 5. Better than the old incandescents, which held up for about a year, but nowhere near what they promise.
Then the greenwashing spinmeisters use the alleged warranty period as input data for their theoretical calculations about how much energy and money you "save" compared to using incandescents. Bullshit in, bullshit out.
OK, it looks like I overlooked one of the dangers of CFLs...
- Reuters
If they don't buy them now, everyone's Easy-Bake Oven will stop working.