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Syndicate
Oh good. I'm glad that cleared up what I was trying to say when you first posted your comments I was like crap crap, that's not what I mean't it to sound like. That's so not where I'm coming from.
And yeah good to know that there's other 'crazy cat ladies' out there too. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
You sure did, my oversight. Thank you ! I have an interest in experiences re: compatibility of meat-eaters with people of alternative gastronomical orientations. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
That was an interesting post, I didn't know turtles could be pets, So a couple questions,
1) You have a turtle? cool. What can they do?
2) What song or band was called pepper? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] .Right now the only pepper I can think of are the bad doctor and the female assistant to Tony Starks in Ironman (played by Gwyneth Paltrow in the new movie).
3) You come off as a "sane turtle woman" to me [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] You should get that as a tshirt.
An estimated summary of stargazer's current life:
Note: The flowers above are "stargazer lillies".
[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
I know, I usually name my animals after a song but Pepper is short for Peppermint and this time, no song. Turtles don't actually do a lot but Pepper is allowed out of her home to wander around the couch, at which point she turns into Evil Knievel and starts trying to run toward the edge of the couch. I haven't quite figured out if she is really smart or really silly.
My new kitty's name is Hannah - again no song but a gorgeous name I always associate with strength and kindness.
The Stargazer Lillies are absolutely beautiful. I'll have to see if I can find them somewhere.
especially Evil Knievel turtles...
[ 22 May 2008: Message edited by: jas ]
You've got us there. Just the other day I saw cowboys herding their cattle down 11th Street towards the slaughterhouse.
Oh wait, those were diesel-burning transport trucks.
Mind you, coming out the other end of the slaughterhouse is blood and bone - ie, blood and bonemeal fertilizers.
Or maybe you want your NPK to come from petroleum.
Your said that an all-plant diet would depend on fossil fuels, which presupposes that meat-eating somehow doesn't. I was merely pointing out a flaw in your argument through which you could drive a haybine.
I'm not sure that agriculture can get by without using fossil fuels at this time, and I've said this in other threads. The idea is to only use them when necessary until a legitmate sustitute can be found. Not in fertilizers, in other words.
Haybine? What am I, a hayseed? Hehe.
I've never driven my haybine, I usually attempt to drive the tractor instead.
Just to back you up from an organic farmer perspective. Growing food takes resources out of the soil. You have to replenish them or you land becomes increasingly less fertile for food production and way more fertile ground for weeds, insects and disease, which of course also reduces yield.
You must put something back. Green manures (like buckwheat) just don't cut it over the long term, although obviously they help. So it has to be either commercial fertilizer (which has a huge petroleum and natural gas component) or animal manure- unless of course you want to spread sewage or paper sludge.
There is just no other way to do it. Then there is the issue of the amount of fuel it takes to plant a field and crop it vs taking off a forage crop or just pasturing the animals. Life is just not as simple as we might like it to be.
Happy eating everyone whatever it is you like to make. It all ends up in the same place anyway.
They are fun to handle! When you get them upside down and they're going nutty trying to get at your fingers it is a little worrying, but they're such cool animals!
I have a bad habit of trying to pick up anything and everything cold-blooded. Tarantulas, scorpions, monitor lizards, a whole variety of snakes, the odd politician...
Yeah, yeah; if I'd have written "tractor" my point would have been lost.
I suppose I could have written "bale wagon," but nobody around here uses them any more, although these guys have made a whole business out of selling them.
But to give one last kick at the Qa'Bong - I suppose veggies walk themselves to market? It's quite a hike from Mexico, ain't it?
That's half a joke, Bong. I think animals must be part of food production. As for the transportation and procesing of food... fuck... I have enough trouble convincing people that what comes out of the ground must be returned, as per the ages old wisdom of BA's statements. Figuring out how to get food from field to plate seems to me more of an urban planning\transportation issue. Maybe a green thumbed Jane Jacobs will come along someday and enlighten us all. I'm hopeful.
Just to echo you're thinking Farmpunk. I've pretty much come to the conclusion myself though perhaps from a different start point. My background is urban and up and until recently largely theortical and academic in nature. I studied things like ecology, systems theory and recently that gamut of what could be called 'sustainability' studies and coupled all that with observation and experience with nature. I was also veggie for a really long time with leanings towards vegansim. When I came to the point actually practicing and working at designing a small scale food system I came at it with the idea or perhaps the desire is better, to not include animals. As I learned more and went through all of the 'figuring' which takes into account the entire system, both energy in and out that thought slowly eroded. Basic ecology and natural principles, ie nature itself did the overriding.
At one time I thought that indeed it would be possible to do the entire 'put back' part with green manure, like Bookish Agrarian spoke of but when added together with the whole of it which again they spoke of..the energy needed to deal with it it starts to get more complex. It's simply not that easy to say it's either one or the other.
Oh and I think someone upthread spoke about using human waste as a resource. It is possible and I'm aware of people who do use or and/or developing techniques for it's 'safe' use. However because of it's inherent nature namely disease and other microbial nasties it's not an easy to just say, go and dump it. Again it takes some sort of energy and process to allow it's 'safe' use. Input in and input out. In a sustainable system that all has to be taken into account.
Just teasing.
We are even more old fashioned here, and a lot hillier for such a high tech devise. We still use thrower racks for a lot of our hay. High snow area, so sometimes getting a round bale to cattle is a lost cause so we still have to have small squares. Besides I have a collection of round bales I thought I let out on a level spot that gravity slowly took over on and dumped in the bush, the creek, that wet hole, and my pride and joy over the side of a steep bank and into the waiting arms of a big, huge maple and resting about 25 feet off the ground.
And Farmpunk I think that is the first time anyone has called me
calm [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] Either I am getting old and mellow or is that a 'in comparison' kind of thing.
What's your point? You can't seriously claim that livestock production somehow is easier on fossil fuel consumption than grain or other plant production.
One third of the land on the planet is used to feed livestock. Does that make sense to you?
One third of the land on the planet is used to feed livestock. Does that make sense to you?"
I won't bother to ask for a link to that 1\3 comment.
In fact, what I attempted to illustrate in this thread - poorly, perhaps - is that in term of plants and animals and agriculture, the two cannot and should not be separated. The intelligent use of domesticated "meat" animals in a sustainable system will certainly reduce fossil fuel useage in ag.
What's your point, by the way? Grain and plants aren't fossil fuel intensive?
Anyhow, I've derailed this thread enough. Shall we start a new one in the environmental section? Maybe Bookish-Agrarian will continue to contribute.
This writer assumes that there are battle lines.
Believe it or not, many vegetarians would prefer not to have to explain or account for their dietary choice whenever they eat in public with carnivores. It would be a pleasant change to be treated with indifference by the meat-eating community.
I generally do treat vegetarians with indifference unless pontification begins, or, as a host, I need to ask how I can accomodate a guests eating habits or restrictions -- just as I would for a guest who can't tolerate spicy foods or a friend who is diabetic.
So I guess you know how I feel, then.
I do. Though my experience has been both as a meat-eater and a veggie. When I was veggie I got annoyed with having to explain and defend it when all I wanted to do was eat my eggs benny sans ham and replaced with a tomato and when I went back to eating some meat ditto with getting flack from veggie people when I ate it with ham. Maybe it's just the company I keep but I didn't find one way particularly more annoying then the other. The disdain from both, on an individual level was pretty much equal in that regard.
I really don't care what or why people eat the way they do when we are all actually eating. Whether a meatie or a veggie it's annoying as heck to sit through a lecture on how horrible and immoral I/we are or be peppered with question after question when sharing a meal. I really think in that case people, all people just need to respect the others choices. If at a restaurant just save the comments when people order, 'zmgod you're eating that? Ick, eww *insert some devaluing comment about particular way of eating here and maybe a moral judgment for good measure*. It's just rude.
If hosting a dinner party just ask about food preferences and go with it because imo that's what's being hospitable is all about...taking care of your guests.
Conversations about it can happen and I find them quite interesting to debate the pros and cons of it all. There's just a time and place for it.
Even without dietary restrictions, when a couple moves in together, there usually is a general set of recipes that tends to take over. This is usually up to the primary cook, but their need to be agreement. At home, Mom always said Dad was really easy in this regard for day-to-day meals (although our holiday meals the foods tend to be taken from my Dad’s mom’s playbook). Women at work talk a great deal about the foods that there family won’t eat and one always assumes it’s the children who won’t eat the greens but mostly it’s the husbands!
Unless there is some uniformity between the foods people are willing to eat, I foresee problems at least for me. Like anything else food even if you don’t love to cook is a major part of our lives, do you tend to go for fast food? Do you like to eat popcorn at the movie theater? Do you like to bake? Do you drink pop? Water? Have allergies? Spend hours planning your meal? Eat something bland but healthy? How much meat do you consume? A lot? None?
I am vegetarian, and my husband is a carnivore, relying on meat for all his meals. The truce is working great for us, in that it was clear for both from the beginning that we have to respect each other's choices and not necessarily understand them. We have separate cooking utensils and meals, and each of us is mainly cooking for oneself, but we share as much as we can. He is sometimes cooking simultaneously two meals of the same kind, just that he's leaving my pancake meat-free. Living with a carnivore for many years didn't change anything in my diet, I guess same for him, except the fact that he is now eating more veggies (but not less meat). And we are a very close couple, sharing and relishing many of our common beliefs, which aren't few, it just happened not to resonate on this one.
I guess it's all a matter of perspective, I always viewed my vegetarianism as my personal choice and imposing it to others translated for me in disrespect toward their own life choices. My parents are vegan, and my mother is the judgemental type who thrusts her beliefs onto others at all occasion and I dislike that intensely.