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It's ironic that I should commit an act of outright stupidity while discussing this subject matter...
No, most Australians are just yobbos :Ю
Anyways carry on..
As are, to be fair, most Americans.
What have been other women's observations?
But you're right, it does depend on the tone of the discussion. The more open-minded it is, the happier I am to share my ideas. And I do think men have a tendancy to be more aggressive in their opinions then women, though many men and women are exceptions to that.
I was re-reading ... what was it ... The Mismeasure of Woman? I think that was it. Yesterday. (Normally I'm not so incoherent, please believe me.) And she makes the excellent point that what we think of as "woman's communication" and "woman's intuition" is really "subordinate's communication" and "subordinate's intuition." Studies have been done which put men in subordinate positions and women in dominant positions, and they find consistently that those in the dominant position regardless of gender speak clearly and without qualifiers. "Subordinate's communication," according to these theories, is a way to avoid provoking a negative reaction. Neat stuff. Some of you may want to consider it, or read the book; it had a lot of really excellent stuff.
That said, I think the ability to speak clearly and confidently is something that comes along with practice. I don't want to valourize the "male as normal", as Audra has pointed out, but I do believe in this case that speaking clearly and directly and succinctly is a better method of communication. When I speak or write, I want someone to clearly receive my ideas, not a more polite or palatable masked version for public consumption.
I've been on-line for years. I've flamed, I've been flamed. I've spoken directly, I've spoken shyly. And what I have generally found is that the more honestly and clearly I present my ideas, the more respect they are given by readers, the better they know *me* as opposed to what I think I ought to be like, the more friends I make, and so on. It's counter-intuitive, but I really believe that speaking from the heart and to convince with all the passion that you have (whether you are right or wrong) is in the end more effective both at communicating and at building relationships and community.
You know, I missed this last time I read the thread, which I guess must have been a year ago? [img]confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Anyway, I think this sort of packet of debating tactics gets used because young males are less likely to learn conflict-resolution skills and so lack the capability to react except in an aggressive manner when "dissed".
Food for thought, I guess.
I'm probably going to get in trouble here, but let me put forth a suggestion. I think women, with numerous notable exceptions on this site, tend to have difficulty separating the political from the personal. In other words, men can say to each other in a political argument, "you're full of shit" or, "fuck off," things of that nature, without taking it personally. Women tend to react differently. I know in a political argument I had with wife last year, I said, "that's stupid," which she took to mean that I had called her stupid.
All right. Let the brick throwing begin.
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]
Granted, the "Fuck you!" "No, fuck YOU!" exchanges I've had with some guys haven't exactly been steeped in the great traditions of Aristotel.
Is it really that strange that if you accuse someone of espousing a stupid viewpoint that they would take it personally? You can disagree with the viewpoint but decrying it with such a derogatory word with the connotations it inevitably has (if someone described the views you held as stupid, would you really not consider/feel any of it personally?) is bound (in male or female) to make them feel it is a personal attack.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think your wife's reaction is that strange!
Neither: it's a perspective thing.
Why do you care so much?
It's only talk, ferchrissake!
Let's do that again, bigger, for emphasis.
IT'S ONLY TALK!
If somebody doesn't like your persona on a forum, what happens? If somebody disagrees with your opinion, what happens? If somebody thinks you're misinformed, ignorant, a moron, a Mormon, a maroon, stupid, full of shit, a nasty commie, a wimp, a boor, an enslaver of mankind... what happens?
Absolutely nothing.
I've heard (well, not heard - seen, read) people say things like "They crucified hem for expressing that opinion." In fact, they did no such thing: they made some rude remarks, is all. Not a scratch on the victim. It's like saying, "S/he has to fight traffic three hours a day." One doesn't fight traffic; one merely sits, in safety and comfort, and is bored - maybe not even that, given radio, tape-deck and cell-phone.
Hyperbole. We tend to take hyperbole far too seriously.
Step back a pace, put it in perspective.
It doesn't fuggin' matter!
Just speaking for myself, if someone called my argument stupid, I would not equate it to calling me stupid.
By the way, I've found that Canadian women are much better at political give and take than American women.
I've only known two American women well enough to talk politics with. One was from Chicago, quite well educated. She had no hesitation, no shyness at all in expressing fairly extreme opinions. She wasn't all that good at listening, but would, if one insisted. The other was from a southern state - Georgia, i think. She was slow and careful in putting an opinion forward, but totally adamnat, once she had - wouldn't listen at all. It's a negligible sample to draw any conclusions from, so i'd be interested in someone else's observations.
OK, I think that is stupid, but there you go...
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
I agree. It's a totally subjective and arbitrary observation.
I base it primarily on the numerous on-line chat rooms I've been in. I haven't as of yet had enough face-to-face contact with Canadian women to make a more detailed appraisal.
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]
Well constructed arguments that adhere to reason and are delivered in a confident manner are just arguments. I get the feeling that some believe that this is a 'masculine' style.
It's not.
josh* - i won't hold my breath, but i'd still like some ground-level observations. Interesting subject, how women from different backgrounds express opinions on socially important (which involve all of us) matters, and whether geography plays a significant part. See, i think women -generally - have a more fundamental grasp on events and trends than do men. Not being sexist, just considering different perspectives: nothing major goes down, but both kinds of prespective are needed to understand it.
*breakthough. I started a sentence, with a name, in lower case and Hell did not open to gobble me up, nor did i get sent to the vice-principal's office. See? It's just talk.
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]
How can you ever make such a comparison without it being totally subjective and arbitrary? How many women to you need to discuss politics with in each country in order to make the comparison objective?
All I know is that on this site alone, I've encountered more bright, ballsy (take that as a complement) women than in most of my personal political encounters with American women.
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]
Point taken.
Wow, powerful, and says it like it is, and then people ask where are the feminist voices, here, and ti is true the men want this to be like a boys club where the little woman can just be hectored away.