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Not that I disagree with the sentiment of your post... but you agree that what is a racist statement?
Boisclair maintains he used an "everyday expression" with no racist connotations. I personally can't tell whether this is true of the French language as spoken in Quйbec, because I haven't heard this term.
When I was a child, it would have been considered offensive to say, "I was surprised that one third of the students in that class were black".
Language evolves. I guess it's what's intended by the comment that is important. And I believe that the content of Boisclair's message (the need to compete with the Asian tigers) was more offensive than the phrase.
The article is here.
Just because he and others regularily use the term doesn't mean it isn't racist.
That being said, I don't speak French and am not really all that familiar with the Quebec context, so its hard for me to know whether Boisclair's expression, presumably said in French to a francophone audience, has the same meaning. Fo Niemi has asserted that Mr. Boisclair's comments were racist, and I would give a lot of credence to his interpretation.
But what I really find interesting is the PQs response. Rather than a simple apology, it's been angry denial, coupled with Boisclair asserting he "uses the expression all the time." Well, that's hardly an excuse! It does make me wonder, given that there is a backlash going on in Quebec right now towards immigration (and poc generally), whether Boisclair might be trying to use this controversy to his advantage? IOTW, is this really a gaffe?
[ 15 March 2007: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]
What about referring to people as black? Does that trouble you?
How about "yellow"? Is that ok?
By the way, your "Pure Wool" terminology is offensive to me as a Quebecker - and I'm very serious when I say that. So where do we go from here?
Black is okay as a term. However, it would still be offensive if Boisclair had specifically pointed out Black students and said the dumb stereotypical things that he went on to say.
Yellow is not okay.
I think we're outraged at different things, unionist, and that's perfectly okay. It's not either or here.
And for the record, I'm not in favour of "banning" any specific terminology. I'm in favour of education, challenging people, and the eventual disuse of problematic, hurtful and hateful terms based in racist ideas. As well as, of course, the eventual cessation of hurtful, hateful and murderous behaviour based on racist ideas. Even more so.
Banning isn't the solution, IMO.
I can't believe the gigantic hole that you are digging for yourself Unionist - it speaks volumes of your own systemic bias. It is quite possible to be simultaneously offended by both the racist and neoliberal aspects of Boisclair's comments - one need to rank them. And yes, there are many other ways to refer to people, which would also be considered racist.
I can't believe that we are even having this discussion. Worse, I can't believe that Boisclair is refusing to apologize. This suggests to me that a politician believes the race card to be politically expedient in Canadian politics in 2007, and that I find deeply disturbing.
[ 15 March 2007: Message edited by: Benjamin ]
The reason I used it is because the use by the leader of the PQ of derogatory language in regard to people of Asian descent reminded me very much of the comments by the former leader after the last referendum. My only personal experience with Quebec currently is when I get to visit with my Acadian cousins who grew up in Montreal. They tell me that they felt discriminated against by the Quebecois and judging by the rude behaviour towards the local Acadians I've seen by Quebec tourists in Shediac and Moncton I have no doubt that they were treated less than equal to the "real" Quebcois while they were growing up in a francophone household in Montreal. It makes me wonder about the culture of the Quebec mainstream.
In singling out people by the crude term he used to describe those countries that may include China, Japan, Thailand(SIAM) Singapore and other countries where the abovementioned physical characteristic is assumed to occur, Boisclair is showing himself, whether he realizes it or not, to be a person who assumes that francophone Quebecers have endured suffering and oppression beyond that experienced by anyone else. He still seems to believe, at some level, that what occurred to francophone Quebecers in the past, loathesome and inexcusable as it was, was so terrible that it excuses francophone Quebecers from feeling solidarity with anyone else...with allophones(who surely can't be said to be oppressing francophone Quebecers simply by speaking their OWN languages)by First Nations peoples, and by working class people of all races in the ROC and the rest of the planet.
This is why, while the right to self-determination for all people is something to be supported in theory, Quebec nationalism is no longer, if it ever was, a progressive cause in and of itself.
Interesting problem. Take Anna Lo, elected last week in South Belfast. Chinese media reports also described her as the first Chinese person to be elected as a lawmaker anywhere in Europe. Anna Lo, who is the chief executive of the Chinese Welfare Association, said she also wanted to give a voice to Chinese people who never felt they had any part to play in Northern Ireland politics.
And she has lived in Northern Ireland for 32 years.
The first person of Chinese origin to sit in the Northern Ireland Assembly . . .:
What is the polite way to refer to her? "Hong Kong born" is the commonest, but seems like a euphemism.
[ 15 March 2007: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]
BCG, we seem to have a hard time communicating with each other. When I say a term should be "banned in polite discourse", did you think I meant legislation? I meant it in exactly the same way that reference to adult women as "girls" has long been banned in polite discourse.
I find your distinction between "black" and "yellow" interesting. Do you speak French? Do you know whether these terms are offensive, unoffensive, or one of each, in French? What about the expression "yeux bridйs"?
You reacted to an English translation. I know Fo Niemi and have worked with him on a couple of projects over the years. CRARR (which he heads) is essentially an anglophone organization. Fo speaks French but I think he was reacting to the English version as well.
I am very concerned that some stupid remark by Boisclair (he makes them every day) will divert attention from the real danger (IMHO) in this election, which is Mario Dumont.
[ 15 March 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
The latest Leger poll has the PQ and ADQ tied at 30 percent, with the Libs at a not far ahead 33. Maybe the problem is that Boisclair, in a sense, is trying to become Mario Dumont.
And the lack of any criticism from Charest and Dumont towards this adds weight to that theory. Poll numbers like that could cause politicians to do ANYTHING.
Charest, Dumont non-reaction
[ 16 March 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]
I mean it.
unionist, no I'm not fluent in French, and haven't lived in Quebec for many years. Based on a previous gaffe of my own, I recognize that I can't comment on Quebec politics, having neither the background or history to do so intelligently.
However, "yeux bridйs" couldn't possibly mean "attached eyes" as my google translator tells me. Tell us about the phrase, unionist, and how it's used and who uses it, and why you think Fo Niemi is reacting to the translation.
What do you mean, it "couldn't possibly mean attached eyes"? That's exactly what it means. Look up "epicanthic fold". for the rest of your question, here is a detailed answer I posted in EM - sorry for copying it in full, but it seems to be responsive to what you ask:
Saying 1/3 of students had "les yeux bridйs" is roughly equivalent on the "offensive" scale to saying they were black or persons of colour.
In other words, it's not like saying someone was a "slant-eyes" or calling someone a "blackie"!
Furthermore "bridйs" doesn't even mean "slanted" - the proper translation is "attached", referring to the epicanthic folds characteristic of some Asian and other phenotypes.
The attacks on Boisclair (whose remarks I found stupid in more ways than one, but certainly not "racist") have come almost exclusively from English-language sources, based on an English version of remarks he made in French. The French media have started to comment on this, so let's have a look. I will give the link to the French item, and do my own English translation of excerpts.
Gilbert Lavoie, columnist from Le Soleil:
Le Devoir, article by Antoine Robitaille:
Presse Canadienne, dispatch by Martin Ouellette:
[ 16 March 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
Someone just brought this post to my attention - must have missed it before.
Kindly retract your "metaphor" and your accusation.
Moderators advised.
And what accusation might that be? Are you sure you're not just having interpretation/translation issues?
There is no excuse for claiming high ground, especially since a Chinese Quebecer in his own party agrees (and several linguists) agree that the term is offensive. It's a racist cariacture, no matter how it is dressed up (or dressed down).
From what I know of the term, and it's limited, those terms are not equivalent. Do Chinese-Quebeckers call each other that term among themselves? Do others in mainstream society use the term in strictly descriptive (which you presume to be non-offensive, which is a whole other discussion) ways? Seems like no.
"Black" and "person of colour" are terms used by the people who belong to those groups. That makes a huge difference.
But just to be clear, any white guy, like Boisclair, who uses even BCG-approved terms ( [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) like Black or POC, to single out and describe a group of anonymous students whose backgrounds he knows not of, and then proceeds to say what and where they're going to be working and doing, is guilty of racism.
I don't think M. Boisclair would want those of us living outside Quebec making "colourful" references about himself or Quebeckers.
Accusation: systemic bias. Can't you read your own posts?
Metaphor - digging holes. I had family members who were required to do that in 1942-43. Please just retract it.
If anyone can find a style guide, please attach a link to your message.
We're all one big happy family!
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That's a cute one! I wonder who refers to themselves as "Oriental"?