babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Entrapment by Rogers
November 7, 2008 - 5:40am
I discovered this by accident. I was late in paying my latest Rogers internet bill, and I'd received a phone call to make me aware of it.
I decided to downgrade my internet speed to cut costs, so after speaking to the billing department, I spoke to a customer service rep about changing my net service down to 'ultra light'
I was told that the option was unavailable to the representative, because the account was in arrears. So I asked her what would happen if I couldn't pay my bill at all - she said the service would still be billed to me, even with it shut off for non-payment, in perpetuity until the bill was paid.
Imagine being forced to pay for potentially months of 'services' that you don't receive, simply because you couldn't pay a previous bill.
Entrapment.
(Sorry this isn't like an 'article', I hope it is useful to folks here though.)
[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: Kevin Laddle ]
I like to call this the advanced "drug dealer" school of selling goods/services.
At the front-end it looks like this: Rogers is introducing a bunch of new channels, one is Deja View from the US. Very bad reruns from the 70s and 80s. It's "free", for now. Until one is "hooked" on Cosby and Roseanne, then one has to pay for it.
By the way, we get 1000 channels in my household and there are many times when there is nothing on. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
They do technically have better reception/coverage in Toronto than Bell, my former service provider, but I'd switch back in a split second, given the opportunity. Can you imagine how totally fucked up an organization has to be to make one nostalgic about Bell Canada?
Unfortunately, I'm tied into a 3 year contract with Rogers, and I'm only halfway through serving my sentence.
I'm sorry to hear about that, LTJ. I'm a cellular commitment-phobe myself. That's why I'm with Virgin pay-as-you-go. Reception sucks outside major centers, and the cost per call/text is quite high, but it fits my usage, which is low.
Back to ThePB's problem. I'm pretty sure that what they told you re. your service isn't legal. How could it be? Unless it's in the fine print that nobody ever reads. Document everything, and don't pay anything except what you actually owe them for services received.
But when the country would like to attract high tech business, it doesn't serve us well that we are the lowest consumers in the Western World of high tech gadgets because companies like Rogers act like pirates.
It's gone beyond individual consumer issues, and is a matter of a few tyrannical companies acting against the national interest.
I just canceled my Rogers account with 1.5 years left in the contract. It cost $200. Don't listen to what the operator on the phone tells you. Tell them you want the cancellation department.
In Rogers defence (not that I like defending Rogers), call centers like these have exceedingly high turn over rates. About half of the people you'll talk to are likely fresh from training and not really sure what they're doing. I'd suggest that ThePB probably found one of the many that didn't know what they were doing.
Me too... You can get monthly rates as well, no contract. After Virgin... You'd be better going off with the big 3's cell companies (Fido, Solo, and Kudoo. Cell phone marketers like ending in o's?) over the big 3 themselves.
N.Beltov:
Telco billing systems are the flakiest POS's around... You should always be checking your bill for charges you're not expecting.
[img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] Aaaaauggg!! Flashback!!! Why are you so cruel Polly? Hasn't ThePB suffered enough? Haven't we all?
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
After my most recent move two years ago, I took the morning off work to wait for Bell for phone jack installation and hook up. We're in a walk-up apartment building that doesn't face the front of the street, but our doorbell is very loud. They were supposed to come by noon. At 12:30 I called them (on my cel) and they LIED and said the installer had come, rang the bell, and nobody answered. I said, um, no, I've been here and the doorbell didn't ring. I asked to reschedule for another day and was told no, the installer could come by later that day. I think you know the rest of the story: nobody ever came, and when I called later was told "you were down for a morning appointment".
Fucking hell fuck. [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img] I couldn't leave the apartment to do laundry or groceries, and I missed a full day of work. Grrrrr.
Both Bell and Rogers are fucked. Who's working on the cool progressive phone/cable/internet service provider? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
The second something sends you a bill it becomes powerfully uncool [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Most providers that would be considered that are really just purchasing space from one of the big 3 and reselling it anyways (remember the 'throttling thread a while ago where Bell started dropping peer to peer connections being created by the smaller Internet Service Providers that were buying space from Bell?). Might change with White Space line of thought, but I'm not sure how that fully works yet.
Hey, send them an invoice, see what happens.
On one level, the anger expressed against the piratical practices of Rogers or Bel seems missplaced, when we look at many of the other past and continuing injustices in this country.
But, on another level, it takes on a symbolism all it's own, and we're right to be pissed off to the max, even if it is over things that in most instances are not the essentials of life or liberty.
Thing is, the lack of consumer protection in this country not only endangers lives it costs lives. And it costs us jobs and is a serious drain on the finances of the nation when we have to clean up the mess.
And it goes beyond lack of consumer protection. Corporations are frequently given a pass on the criminal code, too.
I'd rather we got the torches and pitchforks out over issues like Arar, or Fantino the wire tapper, etc, but if it's over cable bills and cell phones..... hey, as long as we get the toches and pitchforks out, I'm happy.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Larry Page in Support of Whitespace?
Just thought I would attach this link above since it helped to insight a continuation on the line of thought.
Maybe your Government will change it's mind as to the money it made by auctioning off the airwaves, to pushing faster on the outcome of connection in rural places.
I will show later on "how all of us can save money" in terms of using this new White Space connection and appropriate software.
Best,
[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: admin ]
That's good customer service, right there.
We have a terrible regulatory system in this country. It allows for the creation of what amounts to an oligopoly on wireless services and regulated monopolies for local service and cable and the regulators are firmly up the ass of the telcos. They are a captured agency, in my view.
I would support good market regulation if the infrastructure was considered a public asset and the services were regulated to ensure the best access to services and features for the benefit of the Canadian public and Canadian industry. But its not. The regulatory system serves to protect the telcos from market competition.
I would argue the market needs to be opened to competition as it is in other countries. We can revisit it after the revolution.
One aspect of the current regulation that really pisses me off is the control of hardware. When you switch service providers, you are expected to also switch phones. Your current, perfectly good, and likely expensive phone becomes fodder for the sock drawer and in the meantime a thousand more lives are lost in the Congo over coltane. It is an absolutely repugnant practice.
[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
Remember the 15 cents on text messaging? The two companies announced the exact same fee at the exact same time.
Price fixing.
Put the bastards in jail.
FM:
Yes and no... It actually ensures competition by allowing telco's to access each others networks. There are large segments of canada that only one provider can provide access to, and theorectically this would allow them to charge whatever the want. The CRTC regulations make it so another company can buy that network space and resell it to the customer (and therefore 'competition).
So it ensures competition between the few corporations in or telco oligarchy. Heh, I'm not supporting the regulations, but there is a purpose to them.. Kinda.
I'm not sure about this though... As it currently sits, the big 3 are investing billions into the network providing upgrades and new services. Would the 'public' be willing to build and maintain this network? Who would provide service assurance? What happens in the event of a network outage (remember Air Canada's fun when their network died)?
If the network infrastructure was publically owned, I'd fear it becoming just like our inefficient buearocracy of a healthcare system pretty quickly.
This is hardward based FM, not the corporations. GSM and CDMA are incompatable technologies at the moment... You're basically bitching at Apple's incompatibility with MS Office and trying to blame that on regulations. There is a technical reason to this hardware issue unfortunately. General rule, Rogers and it's affiliates are GSM, Bell and Telus are CDMA... A phone that works with one will not work on the other, unless it's one of them expensive ass world phones where they basically put both technologies in one phone.
So it's not just me? Good to know I guess. We had a problem with Bell Satellite. Last winter we had a medium package and ran into a financial crunch and since we weren't home that much anyway decided to put the service on hiatus a few months which they said, fine no problem. We were late on one bill and then paid a basic fee for one month and then the next month suddenly got a bill for over 500 dollars. Huh?
So we phoned and said and asked what was up? Well they said that since we dropped down to no service we were now on the hook to pay the fully cost of the satellite hardware that before had been broken down into a monthly fee that came along with the package fee. The problem, they failed to tell us that was going to happen when we requested the service reduction. If they had we wouldn't have done it in the first place.
Well there was no way we had the cash to just pay it off and the bill went into arrears and when finances picked up to the point where going back to the previous monthly payment level there was no way to get even the cheapest package hooked up unless the 500 was paid off first. So basically no satellite. No amount of aruging about going back onto the monthly plan and pay it off in bits like before was possible. Pay the full bill or nothing it's not our fault we forgot to mention that you would be on the hook for it.
So basically all we could do in order to get actual tv back was to pay off the balance, which would take about 6 months if we paid the same amount a month that we were before reducing the service in the first place and have no channels, except the free preview ones while doing so. Not even the basics.
So we basically said screw it, screw Bell and paid nothing and have watched the free previews when they pop up and used bunny ears to get CBC and CTV. They don't even seem to want their money either because we haven't got another bill since....
I believe though that in early 2009 all channels are planning to go digital so there goes CBC and CTV.
So if we want any TV at all we have to go back on a satellite service. We've had so many problems with Bell telephone and dial-up as well including somehow they managed to have us down for two accounts so when we made a payment it went onto only one account and they other one went into arrears and signaled to computer (or whatever the f they use) to cut us off for non-payment. That was a fun one to sort out, impeded by the fact that I do the payments online and had to go to another location (since the internet was down) to see what the heck was going on and sort through proof of payment. Then...with great apologies we got hooked back up. All hunky dory until the next bill which surprise surprise had a reconnection fee added onto it.... ARRG!!!
So by now as you can probably see I HATE BELL but it is our only choice for phone service or internet where I am so that's the breaks eh?
Back to the satellite issue...our choices, come up with the full payment and get hooked up with Bell again or go with another company. We're most likely going to go with another company because both of us just can't stomach forking over the money to BELL, they don't deserve our business as far as I'm concerned. It's actually way cheaper to get an entire new system and hookup with Starchoice anyways. They have better packages too for less money.
The only question is what to do with the current hardware. Maybe I can make it into some sort of fancy lawn ornament.
Apple has software, its own and opensource, perfectly compatible with MS Office. But that's beside the point. You're making excuses for them. In the US, and other countries, where there is healthy competition, rather than the collusion we experience, a consumer can buy a phone not tied to any vendor. A user can change vendors without chaning phones.
The system sucks and is geared to supporting the Telcos at the expense of consumers, residential and business, in terms of prices, features, and service.
It's technology FM... My incompatability example appears to be out of date mind you. Would 'trying to plug an ethernet into a phone jack' work better? If you transfer to or from Rogers or it's affiliates to Bell or Telus, you'll need a new phone since it's simply not compatible. You can transfer to and from Bell, telus, virgin and few others without getting a new phone as they use the same technologies.
The same is true in the US (it's technological not social) if you transfer from a CDMA network to a GSM one you'll need a new phone too... It just happens less since CDMA is much more prevailent in the US and it's more than likely you'll be going from CDMA to CDMA there. If you had a CDMA phone and go to Europe or most other places in the world, you'll need to go get a new phone for the same reason.
I agree with you on the complete lack of healthy competition, but if you're ever in a discussion with someone that knows telco and the difference between the technologies, you're gonna look silly. Stick to your other arguements ;)
ElizaQ:
The US will be doing that in '09 but not here... We'll likely follow suit after the Americans try it (let them iron out the wrinkles).
Noise,
Thanks for the info. Glad to be wrong on that! The bunny ears will still stand strong. :)
"I'm not sure about this though... As it currently sits, the big 3 are investing billions into the network providing upgrades and new services."
Are they really, Noise? As far as cell phones go, there are still many dead spots if you stray fifty miles or so from the 401. And I've used a cell phone on the Bruce. Nasty. But maybe more reliable than land lines, at times. And that's not really heck and gone, the Bruce.
If these telecomunications companies are justifying their gouging by saying they are providing a public service, then we are getting ripped off on both ends.
Heh, Much more to the network than cell towers of course... Alot of the investment is to support new technologies (like the iPhone with Rogers), which is entirely bandwidth and has very little to do with cell tower coverage. How many billions do you think has been put into the current network (including maintainence) thats only good up to er.. 40 miles from the 401? And hate to say it... But you can spend billions on the cell network without coming within something as important as 50 miles from the 401 ;) Most of the wireline investments seem directed at bandwidth too.
I wonder how much Bell is sinking into the infrastructure for the 2010 Olympics
After February 17, 2009, full-power television stations in the USA will broadcast in digital only. In Canada, this is scheduled to happen Aug. 31, 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television
Start counting the months! In the states they provide a free or discounted box to all antenna users to still recieve digital antenna signal so I am assuming they will do the same up here. So antenna users can still watch for free!
http://www.dtvanswers.com/dtv_converterbox.html
Be that as it may, if telecomunication companies are trying to justify gouging by way of "we are providing a public service", then, they are on thin ice.