babble-intro-img
babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

Catholic school funding 5

remind
Offline
Joined: Jun 25 2004

Continued from here

  Jans' post of:

Quote:
I would be very interested in reading of this individual's intergration work in Ireland. I too am interested in what is happening to Prue. 

At this point , what  Prue has advocated is to allow the membership to debate this policy idea. I think it is very democratic of him and shows leadership. It also makes me realize that some on the executive are concerned that it might well get wide support and thus the prevention of allowing this to come to the floor for debate in the last 4 conventions. That's very sad for a political party to prides itself on grassroots democracy.

is a good place to start a new thread, as the exploring of why would the executive block it coming to the convention floor for debate is needed, IMV.

 


Comments

Unionist
Offline
Joined: Dec 11 2005
Where is Scott Piatkowski when we need him? He could shed some light.

Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004
The roots of discord over religious schools 

Quote:

"... Irish beggars are to be met everywhere, and they are as ignorant and vicious as they are poor. They are lazy, improvident and unthankful; they fill our poorhouses and our prisons, and are as brutish in their superstition as Hindoos."– Newspaper editor George Brown

In 1844, Egerton Ryerson, an English-born Methodist, became chief superintendent of schools for Upper Canada (Ontario), charged with setting up a system of "common" or public schools. By public, read Protestant. A few Catholic schools run by the church and paid for by the community would be allowed on the side.

Ryerson promised that a public system would prevent a "pestilence of social insubordination and disorder" being spread by the "untaught and idle pauper immigration."

Ignorant old bastards they were. The halls of power needed cleaning out long ago.

 


janfromthebruce
Online
Joined: Apr 24 2007

 Thanks goodness we are living in the 21st century.

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!


Unionist
Offline
Joined: Dec 11 2005
janfromthebruce wrote:

Thanks goodness we are living in the 21st century.

It's not obvious from reading these threads.


Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

I thought so, too. Old politicks were made new again in Ontario for the last week of an election campaign. And a nineteenth century electoral system gave us a 22 percent dictatorship. Good things grow in old Ontario. So does child poverty.


peterjcassidy
Offline
Joined: Apr 27 2001
There are ways to get a resolution to the floor, just as there are ways to block tf. The left has to be smart to win. Yes, We can.

Unionist
Offline
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Since when do convention resolutions dictate party policy? Times must have changed since I left the NDP over that very issue. I'll see it when I believe it.

Inviting the priests to leave the public schools doesn't require a convention debate. It just requires a slim dose of courage, clearly lacking in all the likely candidates for party leader.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Offline
Joined: Aug 27 2001

Quote:

"... Irish beggars are to be met everywhere, and they are as ignorant and vicious as they are poor. They are lazy, improvident and unthankful; they fill our poorhouses and our prisons, and are as brutish in their superstition as Hindoos."– Newspaper editor George Brown

 

The more things change, eh? Maybe old Egerton Ryerson was right:

Quote:

"Ireland plans to impose tough new penalties on beggars for the first time since the Potato Famine 160 years ago.Justice Minister Dermot Ahern says the measure is necessary because of the growth of professional begging gangs who harass pedestrians. Children often are involved.

 

Now can we leave the Irish out of this, please? This is distracting nonsense. There is only one religion which has its indoctrination funded by the public purse. It is neither exclusively nor predominantly Irish today.

riffraffrenegade
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 2008
Regarding Prue, sorry, Jan, I should have said ONDP executive I guess, not membership. Yes, it is worrisome that the executive doesn't want this issue to be debated. And yes Prue should be commended.

I think that the Catholic trustees and teachers associations know that if any of the three major political parties put this in their platform, it will be game over. The Catholic trustees and teachers association don't want anybody talking about Catholic school funding or one school system. I'm sure every politician and Priest in the province is watching Prue and the ONDP executive to see what happens.
They know that a lot has changed since 1844 and 1984. Ontarians have seen what declining birth rates and four school systems has meant to the quality of public education and the viability of many communities. A lot changed with the 2007 campaign. Now more people realize its not just Catholic ratepayers who pay for Catholic schools. Now a greater number of voters realize that amalgamation could actually happen and that number is growing daily. People know that Newfoundland & Quebec have paved the way. School boards and individual school councils are passing motions in favour of one school system.  Catholic parents sit on these councils.

The people of this province will make education funding a major issue in the next municipal and provincial elections whether the ONDP executive or McGuinty, Wynn & Co want it or not. And it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be pretty sometimes. I am just hoping that a few of our political leaders can see that we should be informed by Canada's history, not bound by it. I hope they recognize that we shouldn't prop up or bailout one of our many failing traditional Christian churches due to misplaced political correctness.

I, like you Jan, realize the critical nature of this issue and its many ramifications. I think the demise of the publicly funded Catholic school system is inevitable. The problem is that if we let this go even one more generation, we will be destroying communities and have nothing left to the public system.

 


janfromthebruce
Online
Joined: Apr 24 2007

 And that is my concern for all the children in our public education system and also the children who are not but might be if we put quality programming as the focus for excellence in education.

I sit in budget deliberations and know that I have to make decisions that effect what happens in my local communities, students and parents. This is about both social and economic policy and they are not separate silos but intertwined. 

In a thread else where today, Lord Turn. (sp) linked to this thread from May 2007 -

Quote:
A related thread. It's not just the private schools that are two-tiered.
.

So for Wynne "fundraising becomes an important skill." If one rereads that link, babblers were all talking about the amount of fundraising Parent Councils are doing. When parent councils were first formed their objective was not fundraising, now that is still mainly what they do. This is not about frills. 

There seems to be a disconnect between the economics of funding education and what folks want. I actually think we have lots of money in education but it is being spent inefficiently - we need to get rid of the silos. I think in my school area that every kid should be able to go to the outdoor education centre for "free" (in other words paid by the school board) rather than costing say, $75.00 per child. Planned educational class trips and bringing in speakers should also be a part of the education as it broadens children's outlook. 

I guess I'm of the mind of doing the most of what we have. I can tell you all now, no matter who is in power provincially, allocating of tax dollars is a problem that requires thinking beyond the past ways. I can remember when my kids were very young in the early late 80s and through the Harris years, how tough it was to come with the money to pay these "user fees" that just continue to grow. I cannot image what will happen as we enter the depression of 21st century. Talk to the kids, and they appear a lot brighter about this and they can clearly articuate what is important to them.

 

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!


Lost in Bruce County
Offline
Joined: Feb 20 2008
riffraffrenegade wrote:
I think that the Catholic trustees and teachers associations know that if any of the three major political parties put this in their platform, it will be game over.


Recently, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that shutting down Catholic schools is something Catholic teachers would support! If we stopped paying for the administration and maintenance costs of the Catholic system a lot of money would be freed up, and I mean A LOT. Thus, more jobs for teachers, more funding for students, lower student to teacher ratios, etc. Everybody wins! But the big seller is JOBS.... oh and quality education (sadly this is least considered in many debates). For most Catholic teachers there's no question if it comes down to Jobs or praying to God you had a job.... though I gotta wonder, what would Jesus do? Wink

Summer
Offline
Joined: Apr 21 2006
janfromthebruce wrote:

 Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

 

Did this used to be in your signature line and with the new interface it just looks like part of your post? 

 

Because everytime I read it, I just think of the reverend's wife in the Simpsons yelling "Won't someone please think of the children?!" IMHO It reduces your post to a catchphrase, makes you sound repetitive and minimizes the effect of whatever you are trying to say. 

 


Unionist
Offline
Joined: Dec 11 2005

IMHO I disagree. Jan has made invaluable contributions to the subject matter of these threads, and her signature line is a tasteful and non-adversarial summation of the basic thrust of her argument (with which I happen to agree).

Speaking of the subject matter of these threads, did you have any opinions about that, Summer?


janfromthebruce
Online
Joined: Apr 24 2007
Summer wrote:
janfromthebruce wrote:

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

 

Did this used to be in your signature line and with the new interface it just looks like part of your post? 

 

Because everytime I read it, I just think of the reverend's wife in the Simpsons yelling "Won't someone please think of the children?!" IMHO It reduces your post to a catchphrase, makes you sound repetitive and minimizes the effect of whatever you are trying to say. 

Hi Summer, it's part of my profile but I need to figure out how to change it so that folks see that is what it is. The new interface of babble has me somewhat baffled (and many others share that sentiment). Thanks for your opinion

 Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!


Lost in Bruce County
Offline
Joined: Feb 20 2008

Completely off topic now, but I would like to contribute by saying Jan, one way I have seen other babbalers make their slogan appear as such is to make a line with your dash key above the quote eg/

____________________________________________

Our kids live together and play together....

Cool


janfromthebruce
Online
Joined: Apr 24 2007

thanks little lost in Bruce County - those youth they think they are so smart-alec (sp?) Sealed

__________________________________________

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!


Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004
Catholics flee Liberals in droves ...    but choose conservatives as an alternative Frown

Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Offline
Joined: Aug 27 2001
The most frightening thing about that article isn't the stats, but the comments that follow.

Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

They're not bad people really, just a little misinformed and clinging to tradition. As much as I'd like to see them use their heads with issues surrounding SSM, I'd like for "Christians" in Canada to examine the two old line parties' records in power and how it's affected their god damned communal values and such. Stupid bastards anyway. 


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Offline
Joined: Aug 27 2001
I can well understand the thought that the patriarchal Conservatives are the 'family' oriented party for a Christian traditionalist, but how they ever claim that the Conservatives aren't complete sell-outs to corporate interests just boggles the brain...

Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

And it's why I think there is little the NDP could do to appeal to those voters - that 22 percent of registered Canadian voters who elected Harper nationally and 22 percent in Ontario who elected McGuinty. I think even if we did have someone named Jesus Christ leading the ONDP, it'd still be a tossup with this whacky electoral system steering a lunatic fringe of voters to vote old line party religiously.


janfromthebruce
Online
Joined: Apr 24 2007

 So it's best that the NDP represent 78% who do not and that means offering folks a non-denominational platforms where everybody is welcome

 Platforms with policies that reflect universal accessible opportunities for all regardless of folks ethnic, racial or cultural backgrounds, social or economic status, individual exceptionality, or religious preference.
And it means providing a education system that does just that.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!


Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

There were non-Catholics attending the same Catholic school I did. No room for them in the all public system then. They werent forced to pray or anything so oppressive.


Unionist
Offline
Joined: Dec 11 2005
What did they do while the Catholic kids prayed?

Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

They usually went to the library down the hall.


riffraffrenegade
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 2008

In my town of 5,800 we have a secular elementary school, a Catholic elementary school and a secular high school.  The secular PS is over 100 years old and two years ago got funding to repair and paint the exterior stucco.  About 7 years ago, even though they were facing declining enrollment, St. Joe's elementary got funding to do away with a few portables, fully renovate and further expand their school. 

Today St. Joe's student population is half non-Catholic....they're the ones that when trotted off to Mass during school hours cross their arms over their chest  and receive a blessing from the priest rather than the sacrament.  The teachers there report that only one child per class goes to Mass on a regular basis.  They know because they take up the Homily every Monday morning with the whole class. They say about 10 of the Catholic kids go to Mass at Christmas and Easter, the rest just don't go. In grade 8, parents of St. Joe's students, Catholic and non are told that if their children are academically inclined, they should go to the bright shiny renovated and expanded Catholic SS in the city.  If they are not academically inclined, they should stay in town and go to the secular SS.  Parents do as they're told figuring that the local SS can't meet their child's needs.  Our PS principal gets parents coming in asking whether they should send their kids to the Catholic city school or our community SS.  Non-Catholic and Catholic high school students are on buses three hours a day but hey it's one way to keep your kids out of trouble.  About 150 students leave our area every school day for the city.  Most go to the Catholic school, some are going for French immersion others go to private schools.

Teachers at the two elementary schools compare notes, it's a small town.  Their opinion is that the secular school has more kids with more pronounced learning disabilities, have less resources but do more for those kids.  Our high school does more for the "non-academically inclined" students than St. Joe's every did.  David Thomas, the director of education for the Upper Canada DSB says that our board has become the go-to board for kids with special needs.  The less PC among us would suggest that it is a dumping ground.  

Were it not for the library, our secular PS could close its second floor.  We have a student population of about 246.  St. Joe's has about 450 students.  Our high school has about 525 students.  The board is trying to sustain the highschools so has decided that grades 7 and 8 will be moved to the high schools as enrollment declines.  This will put our PS under the magic number (200) and it will be slated for closure or will become a "community hub" or be absorbed into the highschool as well and become a JK to Grade 12 facility.  We already have one of those in our board and a few more are already in the works.  

Stop the insanity.


George Victor
Offline
Joined: Oct 28 2007

 

On the evidence presented by riffraff,  the secular institutions are suffering (increasingly) from having to care for the school area's  most intellectually disadvanteged.

This would lead to stigmatization of its graduates, and is in itself justification for combining the two systems. But within the combined school system, there would also be a sorting process, a "streaming". 

Would you care to further discuss your school district's dilemma from this micro perspective, riffraff. What do teachers say about streaming and stigmatization - whatever the structural situation. A very human and limiting part of the problem.

Or have I focused on only a small - and not so important - piece of the overall problem as you see it?


riffraffrenegade
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 2008
George, I think this is a critical issue. Disabled people remain the poorest of the poor. I fully support integration of children with disabilities. I see this as no different an issue than racial or religious integration. I do not have a child with an identified disability. But I worked as an occupational therapist for 20 years in the community, as adjunct faculty at Queen's and in research with colleagues in the Canadian Independent Living Movement and Disabled Peoples International. So I am not your average parent (in that regard only!) Since deciding to be at home with my kids, I am behind on the literature. I have never worked as an OT in the school system so can only comment as an active parent volunteer within one secular public school.

IMHO where integration of children with disabilities is failing miserably is in the first few years of school. There is inadequate funding for timely assessment/ diagnosis and intervention/support. To get an EA in the classroom, a child must have pretty severe physical limitations or behavioural issues. Your average child with a learning disability or those children who come from very socially disadvantage families don't get an EA. Naturally, parents take a look at the disruption taking place in their children's classrooms and wonder how it's affecting their child's learning experience. Some look for a way out.

But teachers teach differently than when we were kids. My eldest son has been in split classes all along. Within our small school, there are three classes with grade 4 students where kids are streamed according to academic and social abilities. Yes, the kids in the lower streams risk stigmatization but they also get to take on leadership roles that they would never have had in a single grade classroom. Besides splitting the classes, in grade 2 they had my son spend the mornings with the grade 3 / 4 class for reading. This did not involve the hounding of an overbearing parent, we didn't find out about it til a month in. In grade 3, his science teacher saw that he handled the grade 3 science curriculum with ease so he was encouraged to go beyond that (within his own class) and mastered the grade 6 science curriculum for the same module. He's in Gr 4 (a 4/5 split) right now and is tackling grade 7 spelling. He's doing this all within a classroom where older kids with pretty involved learning disabilities are also thriving. He doesn't think twice about the fact that John needs a computer to write or Jack only reads at a grade 2 level because of inadequate ESL. (He does wonder why Jack isn't getting more help.) These kids happen to be two of his favourite playmates..... And on top of all that, in this small community, his two very best friends are Muslim and Buddhist.

A society can't legislate a change in parental attitude or prejudice toward disability, race, or religion. It can't force parents to care as deeply about their neighbours' children as their own. But Ontario can reduce duplication and inefficiencies, provide caring teachers with adequate resources, and integrate children so they can do what comes naturally.

Another way too long post. Sorry!


George Victor
Offline
Joined: Oct 28 2007

Another way too long post. Sorry!

-------------------------------------------------

As a retired guy with a B Ed. and a son-in-law actively teaching,  and husband of a retired teacher, I stand in awe of your knowledge and commitment. Your analysis is bang on.

Now, it is a question of funding - which isn't going to blossom forth in this depressed economy. But I spent two years helping my ever-loving give an adequate reading program to her Grade 2s (and, yes, if they're not sailing by the end of primary, it all gets very struggly) and felt that old retired farts from outside the system could be just the assist needed in the reading program. Guided reading for sure, in ability groupings (if not the phonics instruction). Just think, phonics is "in" again.

I stand in awe of the new techniques mastered by the son-in-law, the individual-centered instruction. The no nonsense in the room expectations creating a reasonably quiet atmosphere for learning (at senior gaaaaa elementary level).

There used to be streaming, entering a vocational or academic course stream at grade 9.  And it is becoming evident that the people learning trade skills and entering apprenticeships will have it made in the shade of the evolving service economy.

Public school systems must again become trusted to do the job by performance. And while the McGinty group have upped spending on education, we are still trying to overcome the rot of the common sense mobsters.

Maybe the unfolding crises will make integration necessary?

 

 


Lord Palmerston
Offline
Joined: Jan 25 2004
So has Paul Miller, MPP in the heavily Catholic riding of Hamilton East-Stoney Creek, just committed political suicide for supporitng that dangerous radical Michael Prue?

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or register to post comments