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But that's CTV and Robert Fife again, right? It is disturbing, but until I see it confirmed I'm going to presume that the disturbance is intentional.
I just heard the first snippet of real polling data on this issue. CROP was in field this weekend polling about the Quebec election and they added a question about the political crisis in Ottawa. People were asked what they prefer - a Liberal/NDP coalition supported by the BQ or a new election. About 75% favour the coalition and only 9% want a new election.
Check-mate!
At this point I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that the government is not brought down. The Liberals can not afford to be seen as the party that waffled and caved to Harper again. They'll leak votes both to the NDP and the Conservatives. Further, Harper and the far-right of the Conservatives are in an exceptionally vulnerable position at this moment. If the Liberals/NDP press the attack, I think it's pretty likely that Harper is done in federal politics. If they say "he's made enough concessions, we can work with this" they will give him time to recover, and he will, and the Conservatives will remain a considerable power in federal politics. There is basically no choice for the opposition but to bring Harper down at this point.
As for proroguing parliament, while I wouldn't put such a move past Harper, I really have to think that that kind of move would really be fought by the rank and file, who are from what I gather getting impatient with Harper. It would clearly confirm the image of Harper as dictatorial and autocratic, and would shift the attention away from "the Liberals and NDP are trying to overthrow democracy!" to "Harper is trying to overthrow democracy!" I think it would hurt the Conservatives beyond anything that has happenned so far. They've already thrown away their chance at a majority, they can't risk throwing away whatever support they still have.
Go to bottom of the London Free Press page and vote - alreadt 55% of us are supporting trying out a coalition party instead of a new election.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
I agree. Joining a hasty coalition based solely on opportunity with a leaderless party in disarray is a sure method of going into the next election tied to a plethoria of very smelly baggage.
The NDP has NO experience in power and their Liberal counterparts will make sure that any stumbles on the learning curve will stick to the NDP's fur in the next election. That, plus of course, conniving to make the NDP take the fall for Liberal schemings.
AN NDP/Liberal coalition based on a solid platform that goes to the elctorate for a mandate, on the other hand may well achieve a majority from an electorate fed up with a vengeful, petty, partisan PM.
Ratbert, the only other alternatives to coalition would be either letting Harper call a snap election(which would inevitably lead to a Tory majority because the voters would simply punish the opposition parties for forcing them back to the polls so early)or passing Harper's legislation(which would mean a permanently right-wing Canada, since none of it would be repealed).
Do you actually see either of those options as preferable?
You know as well as I that a snap election couldn't mean NDP gains.
_____________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
crow rate? I hope so. NAFTA stands in the way though.
My home town's dying because the elevators are all closing. Who drives a grain truck 100 km to the next one?
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why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?
Yeah like bringing back the Crow would be a bad thing? No doubt saving the CWB from Conservative attacks will be bad too.
I have reasons both pro and con to this coalition government. One thing I read today on the Hill Times is the malcontents within the Conservative's rank & file, and their anger towards Harper. But It's bigger than this."Meanwhile, Conservative sources, in not-for-attribution-based interviews, said Mr. Harper's attempted strategy to cut public subsidies to political parties was a brilliant attempt to "kill" his political enemies.
"This is brilliant. This is good stuff, it's just that the timing is really bad. There's just so much money for the Conservatives right now, it doesn't harm them one little bit. In fact, I'm sure they'll get more money by doing that from the grassroots. It's good stuff and it really hurts the other parties. It kills them, it kills the enemy," said a former senior Conservative Hill staffer."
It's about getting rid of other parties, one party rule. This "war stuff" is so fascist centric.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
Yeah, I hear the tories are mobilising the "freicorps" to have "Save Canada" rallies.
on a historical note the freicorps were not fascist per se, but paramilitary mobs sounds like what the tories have.
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why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?
I'm not opposed to a coalition that lays its cards on the table before assuming power - such as Scott Brison's statement that corporate tax cuts will not be reversed - BUT I am opposed to a coalition of political expediency that melds an untried NDP with a headless venal Liberal party in disarray.
I'll go with the constitutional imperative that if the government loses the confidence of the House within 6 months of acquiring its mandate, the opposition be offered an opportunity to form government. I'll do so with grave misgivings that this loss of confidence is based both on vengeful partisanship on the part of the governing party and unprincipled opportunism on the part of opposition parties, not on respect for either the offices the incumbents hold or respect for the electorate.
On your presumption that Mr, Harper will be rewarded with a majority in the case of a new election, I beg to differ. As a red tory, my perspective is that Mr. Harper has shown his much speculated upon hidden agenda and proved to the electorate that his potential for strategic brilliance on behalf of his nation is subsumed by a sociopathic need for destruction of those who disagree with him and total control of those who do. He has to go. Quietly or otherwise.
The problem with a Quisling coalition based on expediency is that it has no legitimacy with the electorate and such an arrogant assumption of power may well hand a victory to Mr. Harper in the next election whereas a coalition with a policy platform that proves intent to govern in the best interests of the nation rather the best interests of opportunistic self-servers may well hand a majority to such a coalition.
I believe that IF the proponents of a coalition have the best interest of the nation uppermost, they will propose a solid coalition to the electorate. If not, this coalition is sure to disintegrate with very negative connotations for the leaders who stake their political capital on this ill-conceived venture.
That may be the best solution for Canadians - get rid of the whole nest of dysfunctional self-serving vermin and entice individuals of integrity and public committment to serve.
Where is your home town? In Saskatchewan where the Premier has to go to Ontario to hold job fairs in an attempt to find workers or Alberta where its still busier than the ROC?
Your home town is dying because there is nothing to keep the young from moving away, not because of a lack of archaic protectionism from your betters in the east.
Dion to lead Liberal-NDP coalition, Liberals confirm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/01/coalition-talks.html
Liberal caucus members agreed unanimously on Monday that Stéphane Dion will stay on to lead a Liberal-NDP coalition, following reports that the two parties reached a tentative agreement to replace the minority Conservative government.
Mr. Ratbert
As a red tory, who, please, would you nominate to lead the Cons of Canada next time out?
No, its an entity willing to sell out the nation to the Bloc in order to achieve power.
Dion to lead Liberal-NDP coalition, Liberals confirm
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Oh dear, oh dear, of dear, oh dear, oh dear!
So the Bloc holds its collective nose.
As previously stated, I'll go along with the constitutional imperative but with the noted misgivings.
If this is the depth of your analysis I will start reading your posts with a salt lick.
In the interim, Jim Prentice but in the longer term, I hope that new individuals with the welfare of the nation uppermost in their motivation for political office will come forward in all parties to seize the moment and save Canadians from the present dysfunctional morass.
It may be too much to expect that respect and decorum will ever return to Parliament. The raucous history of the house notwithstanding, the soundbite and electronic media posturings has replaced any need for elegant oratory with venal brinksmanship.
Nevertheless, one can only hope that younger generations raised on videogames and the detachment of the internet can summon the passion required to provide the substance over style that government desperately needs to put the needs of the nation above the wants of the political class.
Ratbert wrote: As previously stated, I'll go along with the constitutional imperative but with the noted misgivings.
I'm not sure I'm concerned about the misgivings of a Red Tory.
I'm with Lagatta on your use of the term Quisling.
If ad hominem is all you have to offer, a high salt intake may be contributing to your paucity of intellectual aspiration.
"Ratbert, the only other alternatives to coalition would be either letting Harper call a snap election(which would inevitably lead to a Tory majority because the voters would simply punish the opposition parties for forcing them back to the polls so early)or passing Harper's legislation(which would mean a permanently right-wing Canada, since none of it would be repealed).
Do you actually see either of those options as preferable?
You know as well as I that a snap election couldn't mean NDP gains."
Another option that I saw stated in another blog on another site was that Harper could go to the GG and announce his resignation as PM and advise the GG that another Cons is willing to try and form a new government and try for a vote of confidence in the House.
This would be an interesting scenario since so much of the anger and disgust is directed at Harper and that a perceived more moderate leader - not from Alberta who would then in an open letter express a willingness to meet with the other party leaders and see if he/she would have a chance of winning a confidence vote.
On balance the pros for the coalition far outweigh the cons as far as the NDP is concerned.
Yes, there is a risk that we look opportunistic, power-hungry and unprincipled (and maybe we are). Yes, there is a risk that we become indistinguishable from the Liberals and are punished (or worse - ignored) at the next election. Yes, we risk losing our soul as we get our hands dirty with a Liberal-dominated government adgenda. But still, IMHO, it is something we need to do.
Harper is a clever and dangerous opponent. I have to agree with Paul Martin's brain, Scott Reid, who advocated killing (politically) Harper now, while we have a chance, lest he find some way to escape. If nothing else, getting rid of Harper would be reason enough to set up the coalition.
We get a chance to show our stuff. If we are incapable of administring a half-dozen ministries and present ourselves as a competent social-democratic governing option then we don't deserve to be there. I suspect that instead our ministers will shine relative their Liberal counterparts - and the Tories may help this along by disproportionately asking questions of the NDP ministers to give them more face-time in Question Period.
The Liberals lose thier convention/new leader bounce. There is always a boost to a party and a leader following a leadership convention (even Palin looked good for a week in August) but by (apparently) annointing Ingnatiaff without a convention the Liberals lose that honeymoon period.
We show that coalition government can work and, as a consequence, undermine the biggest arguement against proportional rep - that you get gridlock. But unlike the accords of the past, we can wear some of our successes more clearly because we will have been at the cabinet table and in the House implimenting our policies.
Ratbert:
Nevertheless, one can only hope that younger generations raised on videogames and the detachment of the internet can summon the passion required to provide the substance over style that government desperately needs to put the needs of the nation above the wants of the political class.
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"Detached" but "passionate" describes babblers, bert. An optimistic view of the future, indeed. However, when you describe Steve as one with a "sociopathic need for destruction" of opponents, that too is only a bit over the top in describing the tone here on the bad days, eh?
You might want to find out what terms actually mean before you throw them around. Pointing out your analysis is superficial at best is merely an observation not anything else.