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Yes, I found that post hilarious too - the notion that not being polite to a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan who says he's there to get the "bad guys", a "personal attack". So I'm going to repost a quote from the first thread too:
And a reply to Jacob Richter, who said:
My reply is to be found above. Soldiers who volunteer to join the forces (namely, all Canadian soldiers) knowing they will be sent to Afghanistan, do not need the so-called "right" to strike.
They need the integrity and courage to either not enlist in the first place, or else to speak out against injustice, or else to desert - like their thousands of U.S. comrades.
And guess what? I have never witnessed, nor even heard of, ONE SINGLE CANADIAN SOLDIER who either deserted, or at least spoke out publicly against the invasion, occupation, and war crimes committed in Afghanistan.
This is testimony to the low quality of human being being recruited into our military.
How did you get a hold of our rules of engagement??
Hi Loretta,
I am checking out the links I'm being given by hte members here. Thank you. I admit it's hard for me to aproach this from a neutral point of view when I hear things like most white people are racist.
Does that mean that most white babble posters are infact racist? It just surprises me thats all.
The angrey black woman suggests that only white people can be racist however this is what I'm finding on wikipedia.
That sounds like what you guys call thread drift anyways. Back more to the nature of the thread, yes I agree the military conditioning does make it hard for many of it's people (especially younger) to be open minded but honestly you'll find the same mentality in people here. "I'm right, if you don't agree with me here is something wrong with you." Some people are so sure they are right they won't even entertain looking atit from another point of view save to simply make sarcasic comments. Do you agree?
I'm really not rejecting any ideas. Though good ideas + comments like your a murderer get tossed to the back of the que. Some people have really good points but the jabs they feel the need to toss in really ruin it.
Here's a question Loretta. I never thought there was racisim in the Canadian Military. I never saw it. When I went down to Kentucky to train I was blown away by the segrigaion I saw amongst the americans there. Whe you were in, did you find there was racisim among the soldiers? If so what kinda stuff would you see?
However, those who have made those choices, got to that place through a series of developments within that made them start to break through the propaganda of war before they were able to take those steps.
It may be that Realigned is not what he is presenting to be and/or it may be that he's not able to get to that same place -- however, engaging with those in a place of privilege who are asking questions isn't a waste of time. First, it may result in openness to new ideas around privilege, propaganda, etc, in that person and second, it may influence/educate others who are reading the threads without anyone even being aware. My view is that if those who are seeking are treated with disdain because they aren't where we are in our conclusions around war, human rights, prejudice, etc, how can we expect people to stay with the new ideas or thoughts long enough to give those concepts that are new to them (at least at deeper levels) credibility within themselves? Also, isn't it likely that, if people who don't think like us are shot down and made unwelcome, the conversations become "preaching to the choir"?
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/513548
**Edited to respond to Realigned --
Realigned, I was quite young when I was in the military and wasn't looking for examples of racism. To be honest, when I look back, although there were a few people that I knew who were obviously people of colour or those of aboriginal descent, they were vastly in the minority and I was so self-absorbed and unaware of my own privilege, I never gave the question of the experience of those young women and men any serious consideration.
Just following my release from the CF, the whole outcry broke open about RCMP officers who were Sikh being permitted to wear turbans -- Legions were particularly outraged by this decision. I remember thinking how ridiculous their position (the Legions', that is) was and I am in no doubt regarding the high degree of likelihood that Sikh members of the RCMP and the CF suffered a huge backlash to their presence in those organizations during those days.
I can tell you many first-hand experiences and observations about the mysogyny present in the CF then, which has changed shape and perhaps muted but not disappeared from our present day military. As I mentioned in the other thread, those experiences were part of what began to allow me to open my eyes to the dynamics that exist in our societies and our world around inequalities on the basis of ethnicity, sex, gender, orientation, etc.
So do I. It would imply an abysmal lack of knowledge about the world's demographics. Racism permeates everything in our society. It is so ingrained as a usual way of behavior that it is rendered largely invisible to those that are not subjected to it. The ugliness of racism is present even in the most mundane activities of life. For example, as a white person, I am always afforded the privileged of strolling past the department store bag checkers at the exits without being noticed by the friendly faced elderly white greeters, while the FN and POC shoppers who exit at the same time as I do are called aside to have the contents of their parcels checked against the receipts. I’ve never been spot-checked because I do not arouse their suspicions.
There are many other examples of everyday life where this sort of thing can be seen. The reason that you are in Afghanistan is due to racism. Coveted resources that belong to brown skinned people can be stolen for the use of white western nations, or if resistance is offered, their lives can be taken along with the resources. Their body counts, great or small, their lives, their right to exist, do not merit the attention of white hegemony’s spokespersons, the media. We get to see some of them through the propaganda, when benevolent white people step in to help, such as medical people bandaging a kid who was injured by the dastardly Taliban, with no acknowledgement at all given to the fact that we actually caused it by our presence.
I get to see it quite often, whenever my family and I are out and about, or when my kids come home from school with yet another instance of having been singled out of a crowd for a trip to the office. Still though, I do not experience it, and I never will know what it feels like to receive negative attention due on my skin colour. From what little I do know of it, the mere act of denying that it exists is in itself a matter of privilege and supremacy, because we retain for ourselves the luxury to plead ignorance, and to indulge ourselves in contradicting the experiences and feelings of those that do know. Among many uncertainties, it is not clear to me where the line is, between white guilt and awareness, or even if the line exists. One thing that did become apparent to me through reflection is that those who deploy to other lands with the intent to cause harm to elements of the local population are there at the behest of white supremacy.
Wow, Slumberjack, that post was incredible. Thanks for tying it all together, something that in my obsessive posting of Racism 101 links I was unable to do.
Remember the old GWB joke? "How did our oil get under their sand?" Not so funny.
I admire your intelligence and spirit, Realigned. You certainly picked a helluva crowd to try to explain a Canadian soldier's involvement in Afghanistan.
With postings like your last one (did you notice the sudden interval) you have presented a human face to the problem of race, and have caused a lot of soul-searching in place of preachments. And, by golly, it had begun to look like a contest for purity of place and purpose in life. Almost Biblical in intensity, if not proportions.
And I haven't seen one ad hominem response on your part. Congrats.
You don't have to prove your humanity to me, mate. And if I ever wind up in a foxhole (it would have to be on Canadian soil, and in another life, I'm afraid), I'd want your kinda company.
(Duck. Incoming!)
"To a lesser extent maybe a good exampe is how my wife complains that when I'm not with her shopping she gets treated much differently than when I am with her."
Ah, you noticed that too, eh? It extends beyond shopping though. I get to watch my daughters navigate their way through various buerocracies, both government and private sector. I never seem to have a problem, where they are constantly given the run around.
And, you know, I don't think it's them.
Admittedly, the air here is rareified in terms of awareness of racism or sexism and to a nearly non existant degree, classism. However, that doesn't mean it is incorrect, or wrong, or a product of some kind of bias, "political correctness" or the dogma of the looney left.
It's rather real, in a very realistic kind of way.
This kind of awareness that racism is more than just skinheads burning crosses seems to me as valuable a part of a soldier's equipment in Afghanistan as a clean rifle.
Thank you. bows....
You're hearing from one now.
You know, Slumberjack, if you actually know a Canadian soldier who deserted or spoke out publicly - I'd like to know her/his name. And I don't mean Col. Demetrick of the Reserves, whoever he is. I mean an active soldier. There are thousands in the U.S. Name, please, and reference.
Oh, and by the way, when I criticize Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan who speak out publicly in favour of the occupation, that's not a "personal attack". It's the opposite. It's generic. I don't know the individual, nor do I particularly care to.
http://www.milcomspeakout.ca/
Here is a site for you.
Thanks, Webgear, I will review that with interest. I still maintain, though, that without one single active soldier to point to, such a movement will never achieve the truly subversive levels that we have seen in the U.S., where entire organizations recruit, fund-raise, mobilize active resistance, and demonstrate. We can all name U.S. deserters, but such is not the case for our own forces. Even in Israel, there are courageous and heroic individuals, in no small numbers, who refuse to serve in the occupied territories (or at all) and suffer the consequences.
It is truly a shame that our troops do not represent, even to an infinitesimal degree, the majority opinion of the Canadian people.
It has not been updated in months, however there was a start at one point.
Far be it for me to begrudge you of your personal manner of expression, because after all, the subject matter certainly is an emotional one on many levels. I've self-identified on Babble long ago as a soldier, the wisdom of doing so raises some doubt, but perhaps you've skipped past those threads. I noticed that you slightly changed your commentary from “one single soldier” to “one single active soldier.” Perhaps with your insight you’ll figure out which category I fall into. To be fair though, I should add that it’s a little like the mafia, once you think you’re out they pull you back in…offers you can’t refuse, etc. Lets just say that I’ve experienced the yo-yo effect. Speaking out can be accomplished in many ways, and just because you’re not aware of any that have done so, it doesn’t necessarily signify that no occurrences exist. That would be a generalization, wouldn’t it?
So, let's see - we're in conversation with a serving member of the CF who is asking questions about Afghanistan and there are two former CFers who are babblers and who have voiced opinions against our involvement there. Plus, a website has been linked whereby Canadian military members and their families made a start in voicing those same views.
Unionist, you stated that in the US there are thousands of outspoken military members, some of whom have deserted publicly and you sound frustrated that you don't see any evidence of the same degree of courage taking place amongst our serving members.
Perhaps there are many reasons for this, not the least of which is that our military is miniscule by comparison to that of the US and therefore, on an even percentage basis, our raw numbers of resisters would be very small. Also, the US military has been engaged in a war in Iraq, which has been declared illegal and many of those leaving the US military are doing so on those grounds. (Have you heard of any/many US military members who are resisting war in Afghanistan?) Also, my guess would be that we hear about those who leave their home country to seek refuge in ours -- where do our soldiers who want to leave our military seek similar refuge? I don't think there is such a place and perhaps living underground is the only alternative to taking on the hierarchy which would mean that we probably won't hear from CFers choosing to resist in that way.
Also, since we often depend on the msm for our news, even here on rabble, perhaps there are examples of people taking this stand and where the media haven't been informed or they aren't reporting it. Given the shitty, biased coverage around the coalition, which we all know about, I think it's worth considering as a possibility.
Just because it isn't public, I wouldn't assume that resistance isn't happening.
I've been thinking about that since writing my response to you. Sorry to say that, at this moment, I have a "yes" and a "no" answer.
Yes, I do think it's possible that the msm would avoid coverage, in some circumstances. It's relatively easy for our media to cover stories about military members from other countries who resist war -- there is no comment being made about our own country and its complicity. When it comes the possibility of cogent arguments being held up for all to see by one of our own, I think there's a risk that the story will backfire against those who have promoted our combat mission as a force for good, and they are legion. Giving someone who doesn't see it that way "airtime", could, if the person and their stories were credible, cause serious damage amongst those of privilege and power in our country. Perhaps it's more useful to keep those stories under wraps...especially when one considers the ripple effects of what has happened to those who supported the Iraq war in the US.
No, I hope that I am being overly paranoid about what I see as deliberate manipulation of the general public by the msm but, given the degree of bias demonstrated by them and, quite acutely so in recent days, I can't say with certainty that I don't think it could be. (Can you follow all those negatives?)
Loretta, it's simpler than that. If some soldier took a stand, someone would report it. And no one has. Occasionally, family members (e.g. Boneca's uncle I think - widely reported and discussed here) say embarrassing things after their child/sweetheart has been killed, and yes, those get covered up. But if a soldier took a public stand, it's more likely in the future than the past.
I also have some difficulty with your statement upthread that the Iraq war was "declared illegal". By whom? And what are you saying about Canada's invasion and occupation of Afghanistan?
Like I said, I'm not convinced that someone would report it -- I guess I'm becoming somewhat cynical around the media. If someone did, I worry that it would be as part of publicly shaming someone who made such a decision. Members of our military struggling with such a decision aren't necessarily certain of receiving the public support that those who come to Canada to resist the Iraq war are receiving.
With respect to your question about the war in Iraq being declared "illegal", that is part of the rationale/defense that Iraq war resisters from the US are using. From www.resisters.ca:
I'm not saying that the war on/in Afghanistan is legal or moral or justified -- what I am saying is that there is a widespread belief that the war in Iraq is illegal (and Canadians feel smug about our lack of involvement, which isn't really true, from what I understand) whereas the war in Afghanistan is justifiable (some will reluctantly admit that it's not "winnable"). Given that "spin", public support for those who leave the "illegal" Iraq war is, one could think, stronger than those who might wish to take public action in leaving the "unwinnable" war in Afghanistan.
Our sense of nationalism also plays into this -- we can collectively imagine ourselves supporting US resisters but supporting our troops means supporting them and their mission(s). Again, don't get me wrong -- I don't hold those positions but I think that the sentiments are dominant in general discourse (shaped by our media who "manufacture consent").