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Massacre in Gaza: Israeli strikes kill more than 200

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Cueball
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Unionist wrote:

Cueball wrote:
... dismissing the legitimacy of Hamas as a representative of the Palestinian people, because it is founded in Islamic traditions, is a cop out.

It would be, if I had done it. You see anti-Islamism everywhere. You should really slow down once in a while.

You did, and you did it again, just now while denying you were doing it. The concept of "Islamism" is a western ideological construct that is part of imposed western hegemony, which came into existence as a propaganda trope of the war on terror.

Your "besieged and slaughtered and oppressed on all sides" trope, more of the same. And a political cop out. What is the result of this cop out? A decent into blaming the victims of the occupation for the occupation.

Your charachterization of Hamas is arrogant vein and stupid. It was the actions of Hamas in the occupied territories during the first Intifada that brought Israel to the bargaining table, and gave Yasser Arafat a new lease on his political life, when he was in exile lollygagging about Tunisia.

 


Unionist
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Arabs rally against Israeli raids

Quote:

Big anti-Israeli rallies were held in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. There were demands for Arab leaders to help the Palestinians. ...

In the centre of the Syrian capital Damascus protesters waved green flags of the Hamas militant movement alongside Palestinian, Syrian and yellow Hezbollah flags, the AFP news agency reported.

Thousands also attended a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the Jordanian capital Amman, as well as rallies in many of Jordan's poor Palestinian refugee camps.

More than 50,000 demonstrated in Egyptian cities on Sunday, AFP reported. Security officials said the biggest protest was in the southern city of Asyut.

 


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001
I'm real hesitant to get into this, because of the mentioned thread drift; but also because of the tone of the tiff between unionist and cueball. But with that caveat, I have to say Unionist that your comparison between Hazbollah and Hamas shows an ignorance about the base of the latter's popularity. Both Hezbolah and Hamas are highly effective political and social welfare organizations. Each of them fills a vacuum for serving the needs of an oppressed population not served by its putative leading organizations. Hamas did not just run against Fatah's corruption- it succeeded on delivering the goods... which it has been doing since before the Oslo accords and the arrival in Gaza of the PLA. Even your comparison of the two as military organizations- which is the only comparison you give- is a characturized projection. Hamas and Hezbollah militarily operate from virtually identical logics. The greater effectiveness of Hezbollah is a product from their far greater distance from the Israeli intellignce and war machine, and their easy proximity to supply lines. Hamas is not as you would argue more inherently "adventurist"... let alone that Hezboallah is more militarily "heroic". If all Hezbollah could manage was pathetic and obviously self-ruining rocket attacks- if the Hamas shoe was on their foot- that is also what they would do.

nonest factum
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Joined: Mar 6 2008

  1: Israel's true motive in bombing Gaza, is genocide against the Palestinian people and extermination of their right to statehood.
Israel's genuine interest in this campaign is strikingly similar to Hamas' interest in firing scores of rockets into Israeli population centers: Forcing a cease-fire on better terms than the one just ended.
For Hamas, this largely means easing Israeli economic sanctions against Gazans. For Israel, this centers on ending shelling by Qassam and Grad missiles and mortar shells. For both sides, this means a prisoner exchange, centering on Gilad Shalit and hundreds of jailed Hamas members.

  2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html


Unionist
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KenS wrote:
If all Hezbollah could manage was pathetic and obviously self-ruining rocket attacks- if the Hamas shoe was on their foot- that is also what they would do.

Hezbollah gave up "terror" attacks almost 25 years ago. Please explain why Hamas is shooting rockets at civilians. What is their goal, if not inciting genocidal retribution? Or is it stupidity? or desperation?

 

ETA: Actually, forget my questions, Ken. This is thread destruction initiated by cueball, into which I fell like a fool. I have no interest in debating this point in this thread, and have said so many times.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
nonest factum wrote:

  1: Israel's true motive in bombing Gaza, is genocide against the Palestinian people and extermination of their right to statehood.
Israel's genuine interest in this campaign is strikingly similar to Hamas' interest in firing scores of rockets into Israeli population centers: Forcing a cease-fire on better terms than the one just ended.
For Hamas, this largely means easing Israeli economic sanctions against Gazans. For Israel, this centers on ending shelling by Qassam and Grad missiles and mortar shells. For both sides, this means a prisoner exchange, centering on Gilad Shalit and hundreds of jailed Hamas members.

  2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms. 

 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html

Aren't you the "educated" observer who thought Michelle Palmer was going to 6 year of hard time for having sex on the beech in Dubai? Whatever happened to that, anyway?

I see you posted some tripe propaganda footage about the Palestinian Blitz of toy rockets. I guess it never occurred to you that a responsible government, like the one of Winston Churchill during WW II, made every effort to remove civilians from areas targetted for attack. Of course, the powers that be in Israel prefer to have the posed propaganda footage of children hiding under tables so they can justify spending millions and million of dollars killing Palestinians by conducting military operations in Gaza, so they can look tough, as opposed to being sensible and relocating people from Sderot. 

That is how much the Israeli government "cares" about its people.


Cueball
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KenS wrote:
If all Hezbollah could manage was pathetic and obviously self-ruining rocket attacks- if the Hamas shoe was on their foot- that is also what they would do.

 While I concur with the general theme of your post, I have to say that there is nothing "self-defeating" about this mode of resistance. The alternative is to do nothing, in the face of a brutal campaign of starvation enforced by Israel and backed by the "international community" to punish all Gazans for having the temerity to vote for people "we" (Unionist included) don't like.

All of this begins with a deliberate and brutal attempt to supress a legitimate democratic process.

Lets not get to caught up in the Israeli propoganda. This massive and unprecedented assault has nothing to do with Qassam rockets and everything to do with shoring up the political fortunes of the so-called Israeli left in the upcoming elections. When one is losing in the polls, killing a few Arabs is always seen as a good way of boosting your political fortunes in Israel.

Only a few years ago, there were quite a few threads on this board, featuring excited chatter about how much of a "peacenick" Olmert is, and how the future of the peace movement would be served if he led that PM. What a joke. I wish I could dig up those threads now.

This gang is going out as they came in, with a brutal military adventure, justified by the flimsiest of pretexts.


nonest factum
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Joined: Mar 6 2008

 3: All that Hamas is asking, is recognition as the democratically elected government of Gaza, and an end to the Israeli economic embargo. Were they to attain these goals, there would be calm on both sides of the border.

It is both unrealistic and dangerous to believe that Hamas has abandoned its clearly stated and often reiterated goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in all of the Holy Land, including all land claimed, annexed by, or in any way occupied by Israel.

Beyond that, Hamas has strong alliances with the Egyptian opposition Muslim brotherhood, as well as working partnerships with the Iran-dominated Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

Israeli restraint, when practiced, has been met with contempt and additional Hamas and Hamas-tolerated strikes against civilian populations.

 4: The Israeli blockade against Hamas is state terrorism and any means to fight it are legitimate.

There is every reason to believe that Israel's economic siege against Gaza is misguided, but not for an essential cruelty, rather because Hamas taxes collected on the influx of goods imported through tunnels from Egyptian territory have subsidized and cemented Hamas rule.

 5: The world overwhelmingly sympathizes with the Palestinians against Israel, and unreservedly backs their struggle for independence.

In an era of global revulsion against radical Islamic terror, Hamas' protracted program of suicide bombings, drive-by murders and shelling of civilian populations, coupled with its refusal to renounce violence, recognize Israel, or accept past peace agreements, coupled with its ideology of militant jihad, have drained the Palestinians of international sympathy and have, in fact, legitimized Israeli arguments of military self-defense.

Nothing has been more instrumental in harming the cause of Palestinian independence than Hamas, with its brutal take-over of Gaza in a war with brother Palestinians, and its frank efforts to build a large-scale regular army force in the Strip.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Michelle Palmer?

martin dufresne
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Joined: Dec 24 2005

Unionist: "you wouldn't talk that way if you had spent the last 40 years actively mobilizing support for the Palestinian cause"

I realize that this is what gives you the illusion of moral entitlement to attack Hamas alongside with Israel, a tragical delusion.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
martin dufresne wrote:

I realize that this is what gives you the illusion of moral entitlement to attack Hamas alongside with Israel, a tragical delusion.

I do not "attack Hamas". I was the first on this board to condemn the Harper regime for being the first government in the world to withhold funding from the Palestinian Authority after Hamas was elected. I unconditionally defend the Palestinian people, and their government, against aggression by the Israeli murderers. I unconditionally defend their right to be represented by, and to choose, the government and the leadership that they want.

You and cueball care nothing about that. You want some simpering analysis that says that Hamas is a good thing - a great move for the Palestinians - the key to their liberation. You think people are fucking idiots??


aka Mycroft
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Joined: Aug 8 2004
Quote:
INDEPENDENT JEWISH VOICES CONDEMNS ISRAEL'S GAZA MASSACRE

(December 28, 2008)- The Israeli military has unleashed its most vicious air assault against the people of Gaza in decades, killing over 280 Gazans and wounding over 700. Despite claims by the Israeli leadership that they are trying to avoid civilians the attacks have been concentrated on Gaza City and the towns of Khan Younis and Rafah. Israeli television reports that Israeli troops are massing on the border "in preparation for a supplementary ground offensive"

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) condemns this murderous escalation of violence by the Israeli government. Diana Ralph, IJV Coordinator calls this assault  "completely disproportionate to the unsupportable firing of Qassam rockets by Hamas fighters which  killed one Israeli. It's important to put this into the context of the deadly siege of Gaza by the Israeli forces, which continued in violation of the terms of the recent six month truce between Israel and Gaza. In the ethics of violent conflicts, it is the responsibility of the force wielding power - the Israeli government in this case - to create the conditions for a just peace."

Dr. Judy Deutsch, IJV representative, added: "This massacre will only intensify the cycle of violence in the region and heighten the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The aim of these attacks is not to bring about peace but to strengthen the position of the Israeli government as it heads into elections next February."

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) calls for an immediate halt to all violence in the conflict, the cessation of the Israeli government's blockade against Gaza, a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Occupied West Bank and the dismantling of settlements.

We also call on the Canadian government to recall its ambassador to Israel and strongly condemn Israel's assault.

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) - formerly known as the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians - is a network of 18 Jewish groups as well as individual Jews from across Canada who are opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.


- 30 -

Contact: Judy Deutsch, Ph.D., 416-929-8349, j.deutsch@utoronto.ca ; Diana Ralph, Coordinator, IJV, 613-321-2765, ijv@magma.ca

From independentjewishvoices.ca


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Quote:
"...the unsupportable firing of Qassam rockets by Hamas fighters which  killed one Israeli..."

Watch out, aka Mycroft, all hell will be unleashed on you. You have dared to criticize the firing of rockets on civilians. You have blood on your hands! So do all the Jews in the "Independent Jewish Voices"!

Down with unity! Long live defeat and isolation! 


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Unionist wrote:
martin dufresne wrote:

I realize that this is what gives you the illusion of moral entitlement to attack Hamas alongside with Israel, a tragical delusion.

I do not "attack Hamas". I was the first on this board to condemn the Harper regime for being the first government in the world to withhold funding from the Palestinian Authority after Hamas was elected. I unconditionally defend the Palestinian people, and their government, against aggression by the Israeli murderers. I unconditionally defend their right to be represented by, and to choose, the government and the leadership that they want.

You and cueball care nothing about that. You want some simpering analysis that says that Hamas is a good thing - a great move for the Palestinians - the key to their liberation. You think people are fucking idiots??

I don't want any such thing. I want you to recognized the political legitimacy of the Palestinian resistance. This is not about your haughty judgements, at all. That is the point. I don't want you to pronouce that Hamas is good or bad. Think what you like.

I am affirming that Hamas is the legitimate, and democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Your entire line tries to side-step this fact, and only adds credibility to the preception that the blockade and the US backed Fatah coup against the elected government are justified.

At this point in time, given that Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian people are under assault, obstensibly to attack "terrorist infrastruture" (actually the offices and security facilities of legitimate government of Palestinians), its unfortunate, but true that standing with Palestinians means standing by the democratic process they embarked on and completed, and the government they elected.

It does not mean further mystifying the situation by saying the Palestinians have "no leadership", or that the "civil war" between Hamas and Fatah, is something that both parties have mutual responsibility for, when in fact the power struggle results from the direct attempt to undermine the legitimate government of the Palestinian people by application of economic sanctions, and the illegal siezure of administrative power by Mamoud Abbas, and the attempt by Fatah to enforce that siezure of power by force, approved of by the United States, and backed up with direct infusions of military aid.

Those are the facts. Sorry if they are inconvenient. All of that must be opposed, regardless if Hamas is "good" or not. At this point in time standing with the Palestinian people, includes most definitely standing by Hamas, and by extension the democratic processes of the Palestinians, and their right to self-determination, which are yet again under attack by Israel and its backers.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
Thanks for putting things more soberly, cueball. I fully agree with what you said. But on this board, among friends, I do have the right to ask: When will the Palestinian people overcome? When will they win? And how? Are they closer today than 60 years ago?

Unionist
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Palestinians and their supporters in Canada condemn Israeli attacks in Gaza

Quote:

Palestinian-Canadians and their supporters held demonstrations in several cities Sunday in protest against Israeli air strikes aimed at security compounds in the Gaza Strip.

They rallied in downtown Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto.

It's a pretty slanted article, but at least there are some reports coming out in the MSM.

 


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002
Did any of you guys attend your respective demonstrations? Not bad in Montréal; several hundred upon very short notice during the year's end holiday period. And for once the weather cooperated - it was balmy and the sun actually came out.

Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Unionist wrote:

Quote:
"...the unsupportable firing of Qassam rockets by Hamas fighters which  killed one Israeli..."

Watch out, aka Mycroft, all hell will be unleashed on you. You have dared to criticize the firing of rockets on civilians. You have blood on your hands! So do all the Jews in the "Independent Jewish Voices"!

Down with unity! Long live defeat and isolation! 

If Israel gave a damn about its civilians in Sderot, it would spend the money to relocate them. Israel is well funded in the department of relocation, and routinely relocates Jews from around the world to the environs of Jerusalem and the West Bank, obstensibly to protect them from danger. But for some reason, the citizens of Sderot must remain on the firing line.

Israeli citzens regularly play the foil in the political games of the power brokers of its society, as victims in Sderot, and tools of occupation and annexation in the West Bank.

Instead, Olmert and Netanyahu and their ilk would prefer to keep the fires hot, and spend billions on security and reprisals, since power in Israel is dictated by the need for a permanent national security emergency. To not be in a state of perpetual war would undermine the fundamental justifications of the Zionist cause, and as likely as not collapse the economy since the need for US aid would be superfluous.

The Israeli politicians and the IDF feed on war and crisis like flies on shit.


M. Spector
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aka Mycroft
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Joined: Aug 8 2004

The Toronto demo was around 800 or so which is quite large when you consider the short notice and the fact that we are in the middle of holidays. There were about a dozen JDL counterprotesters across the street.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/clip124801#clip124801

 Unfortunately, CTV reports this as being a Palestinian demo vs an Israeli demo despite the fact that there were probably more Jews in the Gaza solidarity demo than there were in the JDL demo. 


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002
That is great, Mycroft. We were at least 500 - I'm short, so have a hard time estimating crowds. In any event, not pitiful. Including more than one person you met at the historic Toronto Conference of Alternative Jewish Voices. Important to keep up the pressure against this ongoing atrocity. Israel assassin, Harper, complice!

nonest factum
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Joined: Mar 6 2008


MCC calls for end to bombing
Condemns Hamas for inciting hostilities

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) has expressed alarm at the on-going Israeli attacks on Gaza and has asked the international community to intervene and bring about an immediate ceasefire. In a statement, the MCC condemned the disproportionate response by the IDF to the rocket attacks by Hamas, leading to hundreds of casualties.

The MCC statement also condemned Hamas for treating the Palestinian people as human-bait in a ploy to provoke Israel into launching an all-out attack on Gaza. In censuring Hamas, the MCC said, the Islamist group had deliberately put the civilian population of Gaza in danger as it played the role of Iran's agent provocateur in the region......"

 

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20081228.html


Unionist
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Israel bombs university in Gaza

Quote:

Israeli air force jets have bombed the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip, a significant cultural symbol for Hamas.

Warplanes also struck Hamas government offices as air raids aimed at forcing Palestinian militants to halt rocket fire into southern Israel continued.

Palestinian medics say nearly 300 people have been killed in the air raids that began on Saturday....

A BBC journalist in Gaza said the university authorities had evacuated the campus a few days ago as they had been expecting a strike.

Earlier on Sunday, Israel bombed supply tunnels in the southern Gaza Strip used by Palestinians to smuggle food and other supplies - including weapons, says Israel - past the Israeli blockade of the territory.

As jets pounded the southern Gaza Strip, hundreds of Palestinians stormed over a fence on the Gaza-Egypt border, but Egyptian security forces fired shots to prevent them entering.

An Egyptian security official was shot dead and another wounded in the turmoil which followed. ...

The high numbers of casualties made Saturday the single deadliest day in the Gaza Strip since Israel's occupation of the territory in 1967, analysts said, although no independent confirmation is available of the numbers killed.

 

 


Webgear
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Joined: May 30 2005
Has the NDP made any statements on these recent crimes against humanity?

Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
No.

Webgear
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Joined: May 30 2005
Has the Liberal Party?

Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
nonest factum wrote:


MCC calls for end to bombing
Condemns Hamas for inciting hostilities

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) has expressed alarm at the on-going Israeli attacks on Gaza and has asked the international community to intervene and bring about an immediate ceasefire. In a statement, the MCC condemned the disproportionate response by the IDF to the rocket attacks by Hamas, leading to hundreds of casualties.

The MCC statement also condemned Hamas for treating the Palestinian people as human-bait in a ploy to provoke Israel into launching an all-out attack on Gaza. In censuring Hamas, the MCC said, the Islamist group had deliberately put the civilian population of Gaza in danger as it played the role of Iran's agent provocateur in the region......"

 

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20081228.html

 

Pffft. Reading your sources, I now understand why you managed to allow the tabloid press to convince you that Michell Palmer was indeed going to do six years of hard time for frollicking on a beach in Dubai. 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Webgear wrote:
Has the Liberal Party?

Of course not. Ignatieff has issued two media releases this weekend, both praising dead Canadian soldiers for having given their lives "for a safe and secure Afghanistan" (I kid you not).

Nothing about Gaza - so I assume he shares Cannon's shameless support for the Israeli aggressors, don't you?

The Harper-Ignatieff coalition is having a fine holiday season.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I'd like to publicly retract my misplaced comments about Hamas, with apologies to cueball and martin.

My comments were born of frustration at the seeming dead end that the Palestinian struggle finds itself in. But the blame for that does not lie with the people or with the organizations and leadership that they have chosen.

Going back and re-reading this article by Ali Abounimah from last year helped me get my head screwed back on straight.


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