babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
"That is not my propoganda, it is Hamas stated Covenant and goals. They wrote it, not me. It does not justify the killing of innocent people at all. I posted it to give some perspective here, as there have been scant condemnations of Hamas rockets, rocket factories, etc. Those firing the rockets though, if they believe in the Hamas Convenant, have no stated interest in an international peace agreement. Hamas is intent on killing civilians in Israel. "
It's a good thing you qualified that statement, since according to Azzam Tamimi, in his Hamas: A History from Within, few Hamas members pay any attention to the "Covenant." He writes:
"The Charter...was Hamas' first attempt to produce a written document for others to learn what Hamas stood for. It was published on 18 August, 1988, less than nine months after the foundation of the movement. Since then, however, it has hardly ever been quoted or even referred to by the Hamas leadership or its official spokesmen. Their language has become virtually indistinguishable from that of any freedom figher in Latin America, South Africa, or East Asia" (Page 147).
"According to (Hamas leader) Khalid Mish'al, the Charter was rushed out to meet what was perceived at the time as a pressing need to introduce the newly founded movement to the public. Mish'al does not view it as a true expression of the movement's overall vision..."it should not be regarded as the fundamental ideological frame of reference from which the movement derives its positions, or the basis on which it justifies its actions" (Page 149).
This sentence shows the folly of reading a summary of a study without referring back to the source.
Here is what the original study said:
"Historic Palestine" includes post-1948 Israel.
Andrew Brown, in his so-called "summary", reduces that to: "Apologize for 1948, and we can have peace."
Nice try, Andrew.
Not to mention that the Knesset itself includes Arab MPs.
Notwithstanding the fact that "Nuke the Knesset" is equivalent to what Israel is doing in Gaz, the tagline is just plain inappropriate. But I added the above point in case people are not aware. Israeli Arab MPs are under no illussions what they can achieve. But they are definitely present.
It might be more appropriate to say that there are MPs who oppose the Gaza pogrom. This is not an ethnic issue.
For quite some time now I've been thinking St. Martin is an agent provocateur, intent on disrupting conversation here with his fringe, leftier-than-leftist comments.
I just received this from the Canadian Arab Federation:
The Arab Women's League Presents: No to Israeli Crimes Against Gaza! Long Live Palestine! Candlelight Vigil & Rally, Hamilton, Ontario
When: Wednesday December 31, 2008Time: 6:00p.m.
Where: Old City Hall, Hamilton, Main St & MacNab St
Demonstration: Stand with Gaza! End Israeli apartheid! In Montreal, Quebec
When: Wednesday December 31, 2008Time: 11:00p.m.-12:00a.m.
Where: The Pavillon Jacques-Cartier old port of Montreal metro Place d’Armes
http://www.tadamon.ca/post/2358
The Palestinian Association of Hamilton, along with the Hamilton Coalition against the War and the Muslim Association of Hamilton call upon all Hamiltonian's of good conscience, of all walks of life, and of all religious affiliations to join us for a public protest meeting concerning the situation in Gaza. Hamilton, Ontario
When: Thursday January 01, 2009Time: 8:00p.m.
Where: Hamilton Mosque, 1545 Stonechurch Road East, Hamilton
It is time to stand with the people of Gaza. Join us this Friday for “Save Gaza Vigil” to demand a halt to Israel’s murderous assault. Montreal, Quebec
When: Friday January 02, 2009Time: 12:00p.m.
Where: The corner of Ste-Catherine St. and McGill College Avenue. Montreal, Quebec
Join us in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and to call for an end to Israeli apartheid. Vancouver, British Columbia
When: Saturday January 03, 2009Time: 1:00p.m.
Where: Vancouver Art Gallery (Robson side - corner Hornby)
The Association of Palestinian Arab Canadians, Not in our Name - Jews against Israel 's Wars, and other groups, are planning a demonstration against the Israeli massacres in Gaza. Ottawa, Ontario
When: Saturday January 03, 2009Time: 1:00p.m.
Where: Parliament Hill, Ottawa
End the Siege on Gaza, Protest Israeli War Crimes. Montreal, Quebec
When: Sunday January 04, 2009
Time: 12:30p.m.
Where: Carré Cabot: corner St. Catherine and Atwater, (metro Atwater), Montreal, Quebec
Then he turns to what I consider a more important observation, which he begins by being facetious: "But why speak about such things when we can hold up placards equating Jews with Nazis, emote over dead babies or talk tough about defending Israeli citizens?" He goes on to suggest that Israel's critics would do well to behave like grown-ups, but: "If we are to do this then the friends of the Palestinians would be best advised to put pressure on Hamas never to launch another of its bloody rockets and to stop its death-laden rhetoric, and the friends of Israel well placed to cajole it into making a settlement seem worthwhile. All else is verbiage."
The rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/debasement-of-language-israeli...
It doesn't get clearer than that. It's from a succinct and saucy essay by my comrade Jonathon Narvey (in the photo, with the brolly), one of my co-founders at the Canada-Afghanistan Solidarity Committee, in today's Vancouver Province.
While everyone's been droning on about Israel's conduct in recent days, it's refreshing to see the focus properly turned on the culpability of Hamas in the sufferings of the Palestinians, and I see Michael Weiss has written a splendid and finely balanced essay setting out the complicity of Hamas in it all. Most pertinently, from my point of view - what with all the demented braying about Israeli "genocide" these days - Weiss points to this report last year from B'Tselem, the eagle-eyed observer of human rights violations in the Occupied Territories.
The report documents the slaughter of at least 344 Palestinians over the space of a few months by the Palestinian "leadership," which is to say Hamas and the Iz a-Din al-Qassam Brigades and their rivals among Fatah loyalists and the Palestinian Authority security forces. Thousands were injured in the bloodbath. The casualties were mainly in Gaza. The terror included summary executions, illegal arrests, torture, the deliberate crippling of prisoners by gunshots, revenge attacks, abductions, and looting. I guess it doesn't count as a Palestinian "genocide" when Hamas and Fatah are doing it.
The rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/if-you-support-democracy-and-p...
The rest here
Ohara, I respect your attempt to see all sides of this story. So often the conflict in Israel -Palestine inspire many on both sides of the issue to respond with hatred, intemperate language and violence. That said I have to agree with many here that the arguments made in the article you cited are fallacious. They seek to obscure the very real issue of Israel's disregard for civilian life and further seek to exagerate the danger posed to Isralis. For your consideration I'll answer with this website
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story
Here you will see clear evidence of the indiscrimate terror waged by Idf.
You will see many children killed, maimed and displaced by this increasingly cynical regime. The right of a state to defend itself is mitigated by the level or volume of the threat posed to it.
Peace
Welcome to the New Elbbab - where filthy trolls like punch drunk can survive for a few moments, while the rest of humanity celebrates the advent of year which will mean victories for the victims of oppression.
Someone tell punch drunk, please, that while capital punishment has been banned in our fair land, suicide has been decriminalized.
Parroting politically correct mantra/falsehoods no matter how many times they are repeated do not make them any less false.
This tread is a disgusting example of the absence of any real discussion (save an except for blairz' s post above) just cheer leading of revisionism.
More from that "troll" Terry Glavin
Israel, Gaza, and 'The Left.'
Eric Lee of Labourstart states the obvious, which should not be necessary, but is necessary, anyway: "Israel is defending itself against an uncompromising fascist enemy, and while it is entirely legitimate to debate its tactics and to insist that it make the utmost effort to spare civilian lives, a decent Left should have no difficulty saying which side it is on."
For an outstanding example of the falsifications, misrepresentation and absurd circumlocutions the indecent Canadian left is obliged to practice in order to sustain its irrational hatred of Israel in the context of ongoing events in Gaza, read this. It's all there, in one neat package. It's one-stop shopping: Israel is guilty of slaughter, atrocities, war crimes and massacres, prosecuted according to its own "genocidal logic," and the ultimate blame lies with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Stephen Harper, Condoleezza Rice, the European Union. . . everyone but Hamas.
If you prefer your hyperbolic idiocy succinctly stated in a single sentence, then Sid Ryan is your man: "I want to condemn in the strongest terms the acts of genocide committed by Israel this weekend."
the rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/israel-gaza-and-left.html
Yet another fine example of your brilliant and politically correct wit and and rhetoric.
I will not return your good wishes in the same tenor. For that would be gratuitous.
More from Mr Glavin on point:
UPDATE: Here's a video of the demonstration against the "Israeli terrorist state apartheid regime" in Vancouver today (to their credit, these people appear to have at least abandoned the fraudulent claim to be part of an "anti-war" movement). About half way through, the camera turns to my good comrade Jonathon Narvey among a small group of pro-Israel supporters, across the street. He explains the difference between his side and the other in a single, plain statement: "We want peace for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. They don't."
Edmund Standing notices a certain pattern: "The continuing attacks on Israel from those who claim to favour civilised values are based on a perverse inversion of reality. When theocratic devotees of a Jihadist death cult launch murderous attacks on Israeli civilians, the fashionable approach is to ‘understand’ these criminal actions. And when Israel, in a very limited way, fights back against this violence being directed at its civilian population it encounters a firestorm of criticism and abuse, being accused of ‘racism’ and painted as a bloodthirsty monster that delights in ’slaughtering’ and ‘massacring’ women and children."
For a properly progressive critique of Israel's current strategy, you can always rely on Ami Isseroff: "The Israeli action is justified and long overdue. But the real question is, 'What can it accomplish?'" That's the question Lisa Goldman has been asking, and the answer she settles on is not exactly encouraging: "I am against the attacks on Gaza because they won’t work. Neither air force bombardments nor a ground invasion will stop the Qassams. In fact, the IAF and IDF attacks will make life more dangerous and disturbing for the residents of Sderot and the western Negev, because Hamas and Islamic Jihad will respond by increasing their rocket barrages."
We will see. For the time being, there is only one proper response: Solidarity with Palestinians and Israelis. For the time being, this will require acceptance of being in a minority position on the left.
It is always interesting to see who will place themselves on the side of the powerful against the powerless, and lecture others. these same people lectured us about the fascist saddam, and praised bush. history, and any semblance of moral seriousness, will be judge them appropriately.
Meanwhile, all respect and solidarity to Israelis like Gideon Levy, standing up against this irresponsible and brutal attack on the population of gaza.
Yeah, and Terry Glavin (aka punch drunk) has 4.5 more hours to do the right thing before a new, healthy year dawns.
ETA: Pacific Standard Time. Plus one second.
Only a total idiot would put the onus of culpability upon the party which has killed 5 people over the last 5 days, when its opposite number has killed 80 times that amount. As if the few casualties cause by the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto was justified the actions of the Wehrmacht.
Yer just a fuckin useless demagogue and loser.
It's pretty revolting to see the kind of ad hominem attacks that appear on this site. Telling people to drop dead, insulting people who disagree with you, repeating lines of argument like mantras - all this doesn't seem to have much rationality or open-mindedness.
You should look up the meaning of "ad hominem". It's a logical fallacy, whereby you attack what someone is saying based on some personal quality of theirs, rather than dealing with the substance. Like, "she's just a Liberal/NDPer/Catholic/etc., what she's saying is nonsense", to oversimplify a bit.
When, however, a person says something extremely offensive - such as justifying mass murder - and you berate the person because of the substance of what they have said - it is the very opposite of ad hominem. Here, you are attacking the person because of what they said, not who they are.
You may not like it, but kindly characterize it properly.
Also, when arguments are repeated, it is sometimes because the truth tends to be forgotten, or grow hazy, unless reinforced by repetition and application to new circumstances. To never repeat oneself is either to remain silent, or to tell lies.
Finally, when someone comes onto this particular site, literally out of nowhere, and in their very first posts ever, starts defending and justifying the Israeli murderous carpet-bombing of Gaza... then to invite that person to "drop dead" is far more civilized, polite, and restrained than what this prick's heroes are doing to the people of Gaza.
Happy New Year, Hoodeet.
Did you know the Canadian government, last month, finally, is recognizing its moral cowardice of 1939 when it turned away a boat load of Jewish refugees? It's true. It announced this the same month it engaged in the very same brand of moral cowardice when Israel launched a "war" againt a ghettoized civilian population. Some things never change.
It's pretty revolting to see the kind of ad hominem attacks that
appear on this site."
Welc
me to Babble where apparetly only the "correct" opinions and discussions are tolerated.
Happy New Year !
Blueballs:
You are just a coward hiding behind ridicule and hyperbole.
Get some help! There's medication for rageaholic "knowitall" lunatics like you!