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January 7, 2009 - 11:04am
#43
Quote:
Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say?
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't attend events of theirs, welcome them to anything I was involved with and if i ever did encounter them yelling their vitriol and hate, I'd be the first person to ask them to stop and explain that they were discrediting everyone else present.
January 7, 2009 - 11:07am
#44
Quote:
How about the guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NW6gvrug44&eur - the one making the "throat slitting" gesture to the Jewish group across the street?
Jewish group? You mean the terrorist group called the JDL (the FBI describes them as such). Why do you assume that hostility shown towards a terrorist quasi-fascist group called the JDL would be hostility towards Jews in general? There were a number of Jews in the rally (more, in fact, than were standing with the JDL) most of us were very identifiable and none of us were subjected to any threats or nasty gestures except from your terrorist friends in the JDL perhaps.
Quote:
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't attend events of theirs,
Did you attend the counterrally because if you did then you sure as hell attended an event of theirs. The video, btw, is taken from the vantage point of the JDL's counterdemo and is a JDL video.
January 7, 2009 - 11:09am
#45
I'll add that my point in posting a few videos and pics of radical anti-semites at these events isn't to paint everyone with a broad brush. Obviously, opposition to Israel's actions are not inherently anti-Semitic.
But people ahve completely dismissed the idea that there's ANYTHING whatsoever or anyone whatsoever in this movement driven by anti-semitism and that's completely naive and disingenuous. Sometimes, opposition to Israel IS used as a transparent cloack to mask real hatred of Jews.
Exhibit A:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_europe_gaza_jews_attacked
"PARIS – Government officials and Jewish leaders are concerned the conflict in Gaza may spill over into violence in Europe, with attacks reported against Jews and synagogues in France, Sweden and Britain.
Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, Monday night.
A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. And on Sunday slogans, including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire," were daubed on Israel's Embassy in Stockholm.
In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon to Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week in a shooting police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis. Belgium ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased state of alert" Tuesday after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and arrests."
January 7, 2009 - 11:13am
#46
aka Mycroft wrote:
There were a number of Jews in the rally (more, in fact, than were standing with the JDL) most of us were very identifiable and none of us were subjected to any threats or nasty gestures except from your terrorist friends in the JDL perhaps.
Let me ask you an honest question and i will trust the sincerity of your response. Would you feel comofrtable wearing a yarmulke to that rally in Toronto?
To answer your question, no, I did not attend the counter-rally as
a)I haven't lived in Toronto in some time
b)I don't support Israel's actions
c) I wouldn't want to attend an even organzied by the JDL if that is, indeed, who organized the event.
January 7, 2009 - 11:23am
#47
Any large rally on any issue will attract some extremist loons but you can't paint an entire rally based on the fringe, that's just propaganda. Having a rally on the war of Lebanon where one guy unfurls a Hezbollah flag does not make it a "Hezbollah rally". A handful of anti-semites in a crowd of 10,000 does not make it an anti-Semitic rally.
The CJC is organizing a pro-Israel rally on Thursday. I'll bet you $1000 that if I went to the rally with a video camera and interview enough people I'd find quite a number who will call the Palestinians animals, imply they are not human beings, deny they even exist (a common JDL theme) as well as a number who would say that every single Palestinian in Israel or the occupied territories should be deported to Jordan and other countries. I might even find one or two who say the IDF should kill every single person in Gaza. I'd also find a number who call the Palestinians Nazis and imply that if Gaza isn't crushed there'll be another Holocaust.
So what would that prove?
January 7, 2009 - 11:20am
#48
aka Mycroft wrote:
Let me ask you an honest question and i will trust the sincerity of your response. Would you feel comofrtable wearing a yarmulke to that rally in Toronto?
Throughout the entire length of the rally I was carrying a lage banner that said "Jews in solidarity with Gaza" which I think quite clearly identified me as Jewish so yes, if wearing yarmulkes was my thing then I would feel comfortable.
I guess I could go with a yarmulke and wearing a prayer shawl etc but since I'm not religious it would be more than a bit insincere.
January 7, 2009 - 11:30am
#49
As for Nazi analogies and references to the Holocaust extremists on both sides are engaging in this. For example, here's a recent email from Zionist propagandist Ami Iseroff:
Quote:
The New York Times issue below rightly condemns the bloodthirsty Zionists for their disproportionate response in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, Headlines:
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising an Over-Reaction
European Leaders Blame Jews for Disproportionate Response
Zionist Violence Shatters Hopes for A Peaceful Solution
Peace Vigil Calls for a Cease Fire
Zionists must be held accountable for war crimes
Culture Shock: U.S. Knee Jerk support of Zionist Lobby Irritates Cultured Europeans
Those ZIonists are always talking about the Holocaust. Just because Hamas declares they want to wipe out the Jews and a few Zionists get killed, is no reason to get excited, right?
Ami Isseroff
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37523188@N00/215818828/
January 7, 2009 - 11:33am
#50
cueball wrote:
Anyway, you were talking about how you condemn the horrific attack upon an urban population using high explosive devices that cause indescriminate damage, and therefore necessarily wound and kill numerous non-combatants, something for which Gen Dragomir Milosevic was tried for at the Hague for his actions in 1992.
Your comparison is valid, however we both know the consequences won't be similar; the Hague is for prosecuting Serbs.
January 7, 2009 - 11:33am
#51
Has SSC apologized yet for - or simply corrected - his fabrication whereby he added the word "enough" to the hatemongering interviewer's question? If not, AKA M, I would question why you're continuing to patiently explain things to him, as if he's just some misguided well-intentioned soul who doesn't have all the facts about some rally? His consistent screed here is an attempt to connect anti-Israel activism with anti-Semitism. That kind of hatemongering doesn't fall within the category of innocent ignorance.
January 7, 2009 - 11:40am
#52
Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Quote:Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say?
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't attend events of theirs, welcome them to anything I was involved with and if i ever did encounter them yelling their vitriol and hate, I'd be the first person to ask them to stop and explain that they were discrediting everyone else present.
And yet you accept the editing hatchet job by a JDL video maker without question.
January 7, 2009 - 11:55am
#53
Unionist wrote:
Has SSC apologized yet for - or simply corrected - his fabrication whereby he added the word "enough" to the hatemongering interviewer's question? If not, AKA M, I would question why you're continuing to patiently explain things to him, as if he's just some misguided well-intentioned soul who doesn't have all the facts about some rally? His consistent screed here is an attempt to connect anti-Israel activism with anti-Semitism. That kind of hatemongering doesn't fall within the category of innocent ignorance.
I DO apologize for getting teh quote wrong. I don't think it sufficeintly changed the meaning to really matter but to teh extent that I wasn't careful enough in capturing it fully, that was my error.
I'm not "trying to connect anti-Israel activism with anti-Semitism." YOU, however, seem very intent on trying to sever them from one another. The truth is likely somewhere between your appraoch and the one that you falsely attribute to me. Of course not everyone (let alone msot) of the people attending anti-Israeli rallies are anti-Semitic. Of course not all (let alone most) criticism of israel is motivated by anti-Semitism. But there IS enough of that is and there are enough legitimate anti-Semites that it risks poisoning the entire movement.
I'm not in favourt of israel's actions. I sympathize with teh people in gaza. I'm also a Jew, the grandson of a two Holocaust survivors, an academic and someone with family currently living in Israel. So everytime I see people at rallies calling Jews "products of pigs", or hear diciulous Nazi analogies, or hear about Israeli athletes being pelted with bottles by an angry mob or about synogogues in europe being burned, or when people defend firing rockets at israeli daycares as "resistance" or when unions attack academic freedom by applying ridiculous double standards and singling out ONE country in a world sadly filled to the brim with human rights abusers, yes, I sometimes DO feel forced to question the motivations of many of the people attacking Israel and feel less inclined to be a part of any movement that attracts such lunacy and hatred.
January 7, 2009 - 2:08pm
#54
I don't know that teh JDL made the video but if they did, so what? Are you suggesting that it was doctored? Are you suggesting the events depicted did not actually occur? Was the person yelling that Jews were "the products of pigs" an actor hired to portray an anti-Semite? When the person violently attacked the cameraman, was that staged somehow?
January 7, 2009 - 12:41pm
#56
As a constituent of Etobicoke-Lakeshore, I called Iggy's office this morning to demand what his position is, not as leader of the Liberal party but as MP of this district. Got answering machine, left a message with telephone # and email. I will let you guys know if anyone gets back to me.
On the issue of protests, I have been to the two that have been organized here so far. I did hear one young guy say "f**k the Jews" but this was after he was provoked by some JDL punk screaming "terrorists" at us. Almost all of the protesters were screaming "free palestine, occupation is a crime" and so on. As a Muslim, I know JDL hates me for who I am but I hate them for what they think about me. Bigotry in all of its forms is nasty and should never be tolerated.
January 7, 2009 - 12:57pm
#57
I'll comment on the opening point: I don't think Ignatief can politically do anything presently regardless of whatever he might otherwise be inclined or not to do.
Remember Rae left the NDP of policy respecting Palestine and Israel. Ignatief simply cannot afford an internal war with Rae on a position Rae feels strongly enough to change parties over. The Liberals are in the need of unity. In the grand scheme of things the Liberals are trying to take back power and this is not going to do anythign but cause them harm.
Everyone who gets into this debate gets pummelled anyway. Each side presents the situation as more simple than it is and in many respects both sides are incredibly weak in their positions leaving tons of ammunition for their opposition.
I am very upset for the people of Gaza who are being screwed over by practically everyone but that unfortunately includes their own leadership. It does not negate any argument about the Israeli actions to say that the rocketfire is counter-productive and part of why they are unable to build enough global support in the right places to get a long term solution on reasonable grounds. Without the rocketfire their position could be fought for internationally and in countries like ours. Disapproval of Israeli action is not nearly as much of a problem even when it occurs because the Israelis have the strength in the area. It is the Palestinians who need world support and intervention and they will never get it until they have cleaner hands no matter how brutal, unreasonable and aggressive Israel is. As well, political opposition in Israel for this aggression can never gain any significant support as long as those rockets fire. This is not about right and wrong- it is about political realities and the Israeli government, as inept as it can be at times, clearly has a huge advantage over the Palestinians as well. They can survive the world being confused and conflicted and they can survive disapproval as long as it does not go much beyond that and as long as they are attacked it won't. The Palestinians unfortunately are not surviving period. They are being cut down and killed when they are not being starved. Hamas is using the rockets to ensure its own survival as it depends entirely on the conflict. It knows that as long as the rocketsprovide Israel cover for brutality, nothing will change and perversely they will retain the support of their people that they do not deserve. Unfortunately the parallel runs in reverse. The actions of Israel are also preventing the Palestinians from taking any other course and the two are locked into a struggle where one side, the Palestinians are paying disporportionately and inhumanely.
I am sure there will be people who will take issue with what I have said but I can say that the longest lasting conflicts are the ones with both sides being at fault. When one side is reasonable the other eventually will be pressured to moderate.
But I am not a political figure, I am not a person who must keep a party together and balance other issues that may be more important (if Ignatief wanted to do anythign for the Palestinians he has to do it from government not opposition so going out on a limb now if it costs in any way the chance to unify the party is counterproductive) .
January 7, 2009 - 1:03pm
#58
We should also be pressing the PM publicly to back up a two state solution with assistance to Palestine where possible and that includes public statements that Israel may have the right to defend itself but this is not defence this is murder.
Unlike Ignatief who is in a difficult position with little ability to achieve anything by his statementsthe PM is in no such position and needs to be clear about where defence turns into aggression.
January 7, 2009 - 1:21pm
#59
No anti-Semitism HERE either.
I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html
"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.
"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.
"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.
Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.
Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."
January 7, 2009 - 1:58pm
#60
Yes, words, are very much more important than actions. I can see the confusion, whereby, people's words should cause and indeed justify further bombings and mass destruction of children's lives and aparthied actions against ALL Palestinians!
For fuck's sake SCC, you think this yelling in a state of outrage and horror means shit?
Heads up, it doesn't.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
I looked at this Islamophobic racist hate site - as per your recommendation - and didn't hear anyone say "Hitler didn't do a good enough job". I notice too that you yourself added the word "enough" - I guess the original "Hitler didn't do a good job" wasn't shocking enough for your taste, so you had to sex it up a little wee bit?
It was, in fact, the "interviewer" who tried to put these words into one demonstrator's mouth, and when he persisted, the demonstrator appears to have put his fist into the baiting "interviewer"'s camera. Good for him!!
I notice you also seem to credit the Islamophobes' "interpretation" of the Quran!
Some people will go far to find anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist - even to the point of trying to provoke it. Such hatemongers are the enemies of my people.
Too late!!
An Alberta Tory beat them to it!
http://www.rabble.ca/comment/976579/It-got-pickedAnd the Western Standard published it.
Did I really just say those things? unfriggenbelievable!
You might like to know that Jihadwatch has a sister site called Jewwatch, they have similar standards.
First off, where is the begining of the interview with the fella who says "Hitler didn't do a good job"? I mean after all, it is the internet, and there is plenty of bandwidth so why the need for the "edit". Secondly, I don't happen to think Hitler did "a good job".
Do you?
When you were on your way to becoming an "academic", did anyone teach you anything about standards of evidence? I really hope you don't teach journalism. I also really hope you don't do any ESL work
Anyway, you were talking about how you condemn the horrific attack upon an urban population using high explosive devices that cause indescriminate damage, and therefore necessarily wound and kill numerous non-combatants, something for which Gen Dragomir Milosevic was tried for at the Hague for his actions in 1992.
As the presiding judge noted when he sentenced the former JNA general to 33 years in jail:
Does that sound like this to you?
UN official says Gaza school was clearly marked
Frankly, if the Gaza Strip were filled with Nazis wearing Swastika armbands, it would still be wrong to starve them, bomb them, and deny them medical aid, even if one or two managed to escape the prison, or kill a few people elsewhere, once in a while. That is the kind of thing they did. It is called collective punishment. That is why were opposed to them, remember?
Please go on expressing of your learned opinions. Your bountiful humanitarian instincts and principles shine like the sun on a summer day.
If the conversation was something like:
Q: What do you think of Hitler?
A: Hitler didn't do a good job
How is that to be taken as approval of Hitler?
I was at the rally. I was under a large banner that identified me and others around me as Jewish. No one said anything in the least bit hostile to me - quite the opposite.
That one, or perhaps two, people in the entire rally of 10,000 said something questionable is unfortunate but I suspect had someone turned the cameras on the JDL and asked them what they think about Arabs you would have gotten quite a number of shocking statements.
Yeah, I buy it. The guy who said "Hitler didn't do a good job" (before punching someone) is really AGAINST Hitler. I certainly can't imagine he has ANYTHING agaisnt Jews. And the guy calling them the "product of pigs"...um, well, why don't one of you defenders get back to me for a plausible explantaion for that one and how IT isn't anti-Smitism either.
And this guy here http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_spine/archive/2008/12/29/quot-death-to-all-juice-quot.aspx
I'm sure HE isn't an anti-Semite calling for genocide as well as being too dumb to spell. I'm sure he jsut really hates juice.
The point is you're making an assumption about what he means and you're also doing it without the full context of what the "videographer" said leading up to that.
The video is a propaganda film that's been highly edited to highlight two incidents involving two individuals out of a crowd of 10,000, and one of those incidents is highly open to interpretation. You are assuming that what the guy means is Hitler didn't do a good job of killing all the Jews but you're adding in the "killing all the Jews" part which just happens to be the key part of your presumed sentence. He could have just as easily meant "Hitler didn't do a good job for Germany" but without the initial question we have no way of putting the answer in context which makes me wonder why the interviewer EDITED HIS INITIAL QUESTION OUT of the video? For all we know the conversation could have gone like this:
Q: Do you think Hitler did a good job?
A: Hitler didn't do a good job.
All we have is the "interviewer" trying hard to badger the guy into saying something he could use against him (because obviously "Hitler didn't do a good job" wasn't enough) and the guy shoving the camera once he realised what the anonymous JDL interviewer was trying to do.
As for you latest link, that wasn't from the Toronto rally.
Yes, Mycroft. That guy who violently attacked the guy with teh camera in teh midst of a rally where people were calling Jews the products of pigs...I'm sure in the fuller context of that video, he was really jsut explaining the the flaws of Nazi Germany's transportation policy. I'm sure it was edited from "Hitler didn't do a a good job when it came to easing traffic congestion on Berlin freeways." I shouldn't ahve leapt to conclusions and assumed the worst.
Want to take a stab at explaining away the guy calling them the products of pigs?
How about the guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NW6gvrug44&eur - the one making the "throat slitting" gesture to the Jewish group across the street? I'll give him the benefit of teh doubt and assume he wasn't trying to intimidate them or threaten violence. I'm sure he was merely inviting them over for dinner after teh rally for a nice chat and the throat-sliting gesture was to assure them that the meat they'd be eating was slaughtered in the correct manner, rendering it kosher.
People? I only saw one person in that video saying that.
Why do you think the first part of the exchange was edited out? Could it be to distort the second part? Of course not because JDL videographers are such trustworthy people who would never distort something a Palestinian said in order to create propaganda.
Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say? Of course not. So why are you insisting we generalize about all Palestinians based on your little JDL propaganda film?
You might like to know that Jihadwatch has a sister site called Jewwatch, they have similar standards.
They're not "sister sites" at all. "Jew watch" is run by Frank Wetner, a member fo teh National Alliance. "Jihad Watch" is run by Robert Spencer, a writer on religion. Amazing what you can find out with Google and 30 seconds of effort.