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Iggy bans Lib MPs from Gaza rallies?

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Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003
ACK. SSC! Fix your post # 54 and get rid of this horrible sidescroll! In the new babble, everything is better, especially the sidescroll!

Star Spangled C...
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remind wrote:

For fuck's sake SCC, you think this yelling in a state of outrage and horror means shit?

Heads up, it doesn't.

Glorifying the murder of 6 million people and calling for genocide now "means nothing"?


Star Spangled C...
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Catchfire wrote:
ACK. SSC! Fix your post # 54 and get rid of this horrible sidescroll! In the new babble, everything is better, especially the sidescroll!

Done!


remind
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Stop putting words in my mouth! And indeed in the Muslim woman's mouth!

___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"


Star Spangled C...
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remind wrote:

Stop putting words in my mouth! And indeed in the Muslim woman's mouth!

What words am I putting in the Muslim woman's mouth? She screamed "Go back to the oven." I said she was advocating genocide. Can you give me a PLAUSIBLE (let alone PROBABLE) rationale for her words that do not amount to the plainly evident fact taht she is an anti-Semite who advocated genocide?


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003

If your idea is that one should not participate in social functions where there is overt racism mad by some persons, then you had better high tail it to the mountains, shave your head and find a mantra that you like, because everywhere you go there are persons who think, feel and indeed say racist things. This happens at weddings, dinner parties, sporting events, demonstrations etc. etc.

Your position is to say that one should not attend Toronto Maple Leaf Hockey games (a team which curiously has never had a person of colour on it, interestingly enough) because some of the fans say nasty things about Jarome Iginla when he shows up to play.

Does the blathering of one or two rednecks mean that Maple Leaf Hockey games are intended to spread Anti-African-American racism?

You have been told repeatedly that the expressions that you are seeing are by and large the exception at these kind of events, and frankly that has been my experience of them as well.

Our position, is that we can not abandon the social terrain to the ignorant, and that it is our duty to be present and join with those non-racist persons from all societies and cultures, in all circumstances, in order undermine racist ignorance and jointly educate and inform and drown out those negative voices. So far there has been great work done in the movement against Israeli Apartheid that has unified many like minded people opposed to racism and prejudice, joining together non-racist Jews, Muslims, Palestinian and Israelis.

Your position is not really a position. It is pedantry based on selectively choosing evidence that justifies your lack social responsibility.


oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001

Star Spangled Canadian, you are taking extreemist examples of, in questionable context, and using them to discredit anti Israeli demonstrations as a whole, then state you're not, then do it some more, then making sure you periodically post a pious disclaimer about how you oppose the actions of the Israeli gov't, which frankly I'm coming to doubt. 

This is trolling of a particularly passive aggressive nature, and it's disruptive to the thread.  Cut it out, or you'll be gone.

 

This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.


Caissa
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I disagree, Oldgoat. I don't believe SSC is trolling and your threat for him to be gone is heavy-handed. Without SSC in this discussion, this "debate" would be a monologue.

 

I suppose I need to state for the record, that I oppose the Israeli invasion of the Gaza. It's the new creed.


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003

No the discussion would focus on the massacre that is going in the Gaza Strip, not the petulant outburst of one or two prejudiced persons at demonstrations in the west. This is ridiculous sidetracking, and smearing of the only movement that is seriously making efforts to bring together Arabs, Israelis, Jews and Muslims under a common banner.

It is to say, all discussion, needs to have a counterpoint to be productive, no matter how trivial the objection, just because. 


contrarianna
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Joined: Aug 15 2006

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

No anti-Semitism HERE either.

I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html

"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.

"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.

"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.

Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.

Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."

There is raging hatred on both sides and matched by plenty of vile murderous words on both sides. 
But your attempt to make the ongoing ethnic slaughter by Israel about another genocidal slaughter more than half a century ago is Standing Operating Procedure for those wishing to hide the ongoing ethnic clensing by the 4rth most powerful military in the world against an occupied and subjegated people.

The ugly reality of antisemitism does not make the words by Lopez untrue.
Yet Fox's dishonest handling of the story, of course, reinforces the standard: "criticim of Israel's actions"="antisemitism" meme.
Fox uses the word "But" to deny Lopez's words by equating his statements as the same as the woman's before him and by implying that he is calling the counterprotestors "terrorists" --a word not in quotes in the story so he obviouly didn't use it in that context (if at all).  The words in quotes "barbaric, racist" are clearly extracted from his comment on Zionsm, not on the protestors themselves:

"Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists.

"Zionism in general is a barbaric, racist movement that really is the cause of the situation in the entire Middle East," Lopez said."

-----
But if unpleasant words mean more to you than the actual slaughter, you might give more credence to those spoken in calm calculation rather than in an enraged standoff of protestors. Glenn Grenwald has some wise comments on that  subject:

"Published on Sunday, January 4, 2009 by Salon.com
Orwell, Blinding Tribalism, Selective Terrorism, and Israel/Gaza

by Glenn Greenwald
....
There are few concepts more elastic and subject to exploitation than "Terrorism," the all-purpose justifying and fear-mongering term.  But if it means anything, it means exactly the mindset which Goldfarb is expressing:  slaughtering innocent civilians in order to "send a message," to "deter" political actors by making them fear that continuing on the same course will result in the deaths of civilians and -- best of all, from the Terrorist's perspective -- even their own children and other family members.

To the Terrorist, by definition, that innocent civilians and even children are killed isn't a regrettable cost of taking military action.  It's not a cost at all.  It's a benefit.   It has strategic value.  Goldfarb explicitly says this:  "to wipe out a man's entire family, it's hard to imagine that doesn't give his colleagues at least a moment's pause."

That, of course, is the very same logic that leads Hamas to send suicide bombers to slaughter Israeli teenagers in pizza parlors and on buses and to shoot rockets into their homes.  It's the logic that leads Al Qaeda to fly civilian-filled airplanes into civilian-filled office buildings.  And it's the logic that leads infinitely weak and deranged people like Goldfarb and Peretz to find value in the killing of innocent Palestinians, including -- one might say, at least in Goldfarb's case:  especially -- children....."

 

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/04

Joel_Goldenberg
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Cueball wrote:

No the discussion would focus on the massacre that is going in the Gaza Strip, not the petulant outburst of one or two prejudiced persons at demonstrations in the west. This is ridiculous sidetracking, and smearing of the only movement that is seriously making efforts to bring together Arabs, Israelis, Jews and Muslims under a common banner.

It is to say, all discussion, needs to have a counterpoint to be productive, no matter how trivial the objection, just because.

 

The bigger problem for activists of any cause is that outbursts such as the Florida protest "oven" comment, especially if it gets on camera as this one did, is the one that gets on the news and YouTube, as it is now. For the silent majority out there, it contributes to the discrediting of the cause. The same goes for a conservative rally, where one or two yahoos may say something racist.

I also seem to recall an earlier Babble post in which a YouTube link was posted containing an Israeli soldier calling Palestinians "animals", and the poster said "Israelis", to mean in general, were calling Palestinians animals. Was that not an unjustified generalization? Was SSC making a generalization about the Toronto or Florida protests?


oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001

I would hold a soldier in uniform on duty (or off for that matter) to a higher standard than a random person at a protest, but the problem is that focussing on such incidents can be used as a red herring to undermine legitimate discussion.  That's why I'm intervening here.

 

This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006
That wasn't an intervention it was a threat. Sort of like stop shooting rockets at us or we'll invade.Wink

madmax
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Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

What words am I putting in the Muslim woman's mouth? She screamed "Go back to the oven." I said she was advocating genocide.

The medias job is to go to an event and find a story people will read. THis requires finding someone in the minority saying something assinine.

Doesn't matter what the subject. There is a fool in every crowd, every demonstration, just like their is a fool in every political party that says something completely stupid. It is the main reason that many CPC MPs are muzzled, especially during the election. The media will jump on the stupid statements.

Remember Steven Harper calling the Prime Minister a supporter of child pornography....

Absolutely stupid and in the heat of an election campaign. What makes something like this more spectacular is that Mr Harpers intent was to lead the country and because of his foolish actions he failed, and hid in his trailer.  It is a lesson he learned, that in the last week, before you screw up, go hide in the trailer. It worked better the 2nd time.

This women.... who if reported accurately and no one seems to dispute the accuracy of the report, made a horrific statement.  I would never condone someone who talks about the actions of NAZI Germany as a solution to the palestinian crises. "Go back to the Ovens" is a sickening disgraceful statement and someone should have put her in her place for saying something so unacceptable.  Statements like that feed the fire.

Indeed their is a sick fool in every crowd, and this time it happened to be a woman.

Her statements are a solution to nothing.

 


SCC
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Joined: Dec 23 2008

I am SCC. You people are refering to Star Spangled.

I never made any of those statements attributed to me.

Someone else made those statements about those demos.

This to me illustrates part of the problem in discussions about the Middle East. People do not read, then in a fit of irrational peak attribute things to people who did not say them.

Even the moderator, for effing sake, said SCC (i.e me) said this or that.

I haven't even made a a single post in this thread until this one here. 

Sheesh.

These debates remind me of the spoof movie Spinal Tap - you know the scene where one of the band members shows the filmmaker the speakers whose volume control does not go 0-to-10 but is cranked up to "11" (like extra extra extra loud).

The Middle East debate is dominated by people permanently at level 11. And this means 95% of everyone I know will not touch this one with a 10-foot pole. And now, after having seen how truly dumb this can fall, I won't touch it with an 11-foot pole.

Thank you.

 


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006
I believe "SCC" should have read "SSC" ie. Star Spangled Canadian. I apologize for repeating the acroym mistake.

Joel_Goldenberg
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[

This women.... who if reported accurately and no one seems to dispute the accuracy of the report

 

 

It's on youtube, just type "Israel "protest" "ovens" or "Muslim hatred of Jews" in the search area. (I'm not good at posting the HTMLs). The protester also suggests that the counter-proteters "steal someone else's land." 


oldgoat
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Oh Crap!  I meant to say SSC.  My sincerest apologies.  I'll go right back and fix it, using his real name.

Golly, I generally only make about one mistake a year, and I've used it up already.

SCC, to avoid further confusion, I'm getting into your account and changing your name to Larry. 

 

 

 

This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.


Sunday Hat
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Joined: Nov 10 2008
oldgoat wrote:

Star Spangled Canadian, you are taking extreemist examples of, in questionable context, and using them to discredit anti Israeli demonstrations as a whole, then state you're not, then do it some more, then making sure you periodically post a pious disclaimer about how you oppose the actions of the Israeli gov't, which frankly I'm coming to doubt. 

This is trolling of a particularly passive aggressive nature, and it's disruptive to the thread.  Cut it out, or you'll be gone.

I'm not sure I'd count it as trolling in a thread about the politics of all of this.

 The fact is, in a context where the coroporate-owned media is overwhelmingly hostile to your message the lack of discipline at Palestinian Solidarity rallies is important.

I think we have to have zero tolerance for expressions of hatred or racism at our events or we will end up being marginalized. Some jackass who writes "Kill All Juice" on a sign should be told to leave the rally. Period.

The whole goal of US strategy is to marginalize the Arab world. To turn them into an inhuman other that average Americans won't care about and, frankly, I don't think we should be tolerant of one or two jackasses (claiming to be allies) tries to make that job easier for our enemies.

 All this noted, it's a bit of a non-sequitir in a Canadian politics thread since nothing like that has happened at any Canadian rally.


Sephardi
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Joined: Jan 1 2009

I was very careful with what I said when I posted the Youtube video of the Israeli soldier calling Palestinians animals. I said "Israelis" not "the Israelis." If more than one Israeli is guilty of believing Palestinians are animals then what I said is not a "generalization."

Hmm . . . can I find one more reference to an Israeli calling Palestinians animals?

Oh, here's one: "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,'" New Statesmen, June 25, 1982. 


Cueball
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Joined: Dec 23 2003
Sephardi wrote:

Oh, here's one: "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,'" New Statesmen, June 25, 1982.

Not sure that this quote is for real. There have been some false ones floated on the internet. Can you find a link to the original article, or a good annotated reference to it.

But yeah, there are plenty of those. Sharon's minister of tourism (this is not a jok, btw) compared Palestinians to lice, and called them a cancer:

Quote:
"Parliament is not a manners school," Ze'evi said amid attempts to curb insults heard in the Knesset. The forthright politician sparked controversy in July for referring to Palestinians working and living illegally in Israel as "lice" and a "cancer."

CNN

This is not just some private citizen going off the rails, but a representative of the Israeli state.


saga
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Joined: Aug 5 2006
Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

No anti-Semitism HERE either.

I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html

"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.

"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.

"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.

Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.

Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."

"She does not represent the opinions of the vast majority of people who were there," said Emmanuel Lopez, who helped plan the event, one of many sponsored nationwide on Dec. 30 by the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism ) Coalition.

 
Funny how you left out this statement from your link. It's right between the two you quoted without properly identifying that something was left out.

I conclude you are part of the Israeli propaganda machine, currently invading the net, no doubt funded by the US.


Joel_Goldenberg
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Sephardi wrote:

I was very careful with what I said when I posted the Youtube video of the Israeli soldier calling Palestinians animals. I said "Israelis" not "the Israelis." If more than one Israeli is guilty of believing Palestinians are animals then what I said is not a "generalization."

 

So let's say I walk throughout Montreal and find two people who say Palestinians are animals. Would it be correct for me to write "Montrealers call Palestinians animals"?


Sean in Ottawa
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Joined: Jun 3 2003

I am very sympathetic to Israel. I feel sorry for this country that needs to understand that its security will only come through peace and a viable Palestinian state and not through military attacks. Every time the infrastructure gets damaged in Gaza (what is left of it) and the people there are led to more and more desperation, peace for Israel moves further away. I understand the idea that a state has a right to defend itself but Israel also has an obligation to its own self interest and it is feeding extremism by its behaviour and sacrificing its future security by tactics that do nothing other than radicalize the people there. The planned destruction of homes and group punishment is a unifying force for extremists.
When rockets are being fired at your citizens it takes a lot to chart a path away from violence but this is a risky and necessary approach. Only through the relief of the horror of what is happening in Gaza can anything else come about.

This is a place that could benefit from a UN force. Israel should not be going after the rocket sites-- others with a better humanitarian record and a more peaceful objective need to take that on. The border should be opened and a UN force inserted. That force should take out Hamas if it is unwilling to give up on the attacks but then it should protect the people and build a state. Israel should be kept out as any action it takes will only make things worse. A UN force will need to be there for a generation because the hatred and radicalization of the people there will not go away over night but security and infrastructure must be provided and territorial integrity given to this nation.

 


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

I continue to be appalled at the crazy extremist statements on both sides. Yes, the JDL is a fascistic organization that has spawned (or sheltered) assassins. Yes, "Jewish" is often conflated with "Israeli" and "Zionist". This is troubling not only because Israel is in fact a Jewish settler state that grants automatic citizenship to virtually any Jew (even one fleeing from criminal charges in another country), but also because bred-in-the-bone anti-semites (those who were raised by parents and priests and in cultures where antisemitism has been common currency)  are free to utter their anti-Jewish crap without caring a hoot about such fine details as distinguishing between Jews and Zionists or Israelis.  So both right-wing, expansionist Zionists and good old-fashioned Jew-haters feed from the same trough of hatred and from the same ideological casuistry (Jewish must equal Israeli or Zionist).

If someone like ultra-progressive leftist James Petras, the Latin Americanist who also loves to hate Israel, can be so cavalier with his anti-Jewish statements and not be challenged, no Jew, however disgusted with Israeli policy and however non-practising, can be anything but disquieted.


Lord Palmerston
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Joined: Jan 25 2004
Cueball wrote:

I think actually the "support for Israel right or wrong" line plays better with non-Jews than it does with Jews. Jews have become a kind of cause celebre for non-Jews who want to give themselves tollerance street cred.

Harpo and Iggy can paint themselves as true defenders of civil liberties by sticking by Israel. All of which is supported by the general feeling of sympathy because of what happened in the last war (note I am saying "the last") and our grandiose conceptions of ourselves as defenders of the weak, and our role in liberating Western Europe from tyrrany.

Defending Israel (and therefore Jews) is the ideologically sanctioned way that one can express ones "good intentions", and is unassailable as such because of the unique circumstances in which our cultural concept of Jewishness comes into the context of the present day.

Jews, on the whole, (Zionist and otherwise,) are far less enamoured of all of that because most are fully cognizant of the reality, which is that European Christians basically abandoned them when not directly persecuting them, knowing full well that the Allies fought WWII because it was forced on them, not because they wanted to save anyone from concentration camps.

But yes, defending Israel is like a tollerance "get out of jail free" card for the gentile right, and that patriotic sentiment and sense of moral righteousness is precisely the market they are playing into among non-Jews, not the "Jewish vote", because for most white Christian anglos Israel and Jews are synonymous.

Your're right the defencing Israel is a get out of jail free card from people like Stephen Harper.  And the Christian Right is more fanatical in its support for Israel than many Jews are.

That being said, the difference is the non-Jews who are really really supportive of Israel tend to already vote Conservative (either for religious reasons or because they support Israel because they like how they smash the "barbaric" Arabs) - so among that group Harper's extreme pro-Israel stance was preaching to the converted.  Harper's support for Israel did get some traditionally Liberal votes in the Jewish community - though not nearly as much as he would have liked.

But now that Iggy and Harper have the same position, Harper can't use Israel as a wedge issue.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
Sean in Ottawa wrote:

We should also be pressing the PM publicly to back up a two state solution...

No, Sean, that's where you step way over the line. Canada has no more business suggesting the number of states or form of government in the Middle East than it has in dictating the form of government in Afghanistan. Our government's duty is to condemn Israel's violations of international law and U.N. resolutions, and demand that Israel be sanctioned until it ceases its outlaw activity. Canada, and indeed you and I, have no business telling the people of the region what shape a future political solution should take.


Unionist
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Caissa wrote:

I disagree, Oldgoat. I don't believe SSC is trolling and your threat for him to be gone is heavy-handed. Without SSC in this discussion, this "debate" would be a monologue.

Caissa, I respect your views and always have. But if babble ever turns into a forum where we must have a "two-sided" debate with the kind of racist pro-imperialist provocative shit that SSC is spewing, I will certainly not waste one second of my time here. Babble is for people that AGREE WITH EACH OTHER on such fundamental issues as to whether mass murder and national enslavement should or should not be visited on the Palestinian people - and we then vigorously discuss and disagree on the issues of how such problems should be resolved. Every day I argue, convince, persuade my fellow workers and union members and relatives and neighbours about the basic principles involved. I will NOT tolerate babble being dragged down to the level of "free speech for everyone, no holds barred".

 


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