babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
I don't think so. Ignasty arrogantly danced himself out of a sitting pretty position. In fact, he is right back where Dion was supporting Harper's legislation or staying away to prevent an election. I think in six months we will be looking back at Ignasty's wilfull failure to leverage the coalition as a major blunder that will keep Harper's Conservatives in government.
The Liberals probably are all high fiving themselves at this point. They don't have to step up and actually do anything, and once their funds are in place and they're organized enough, then they can decide when they want to have an election when they're ready and strong.
They don't realize how arrogant they are.
Maybe it wasn't so much a change in the party, but it was a change in leadership, which is a major factor in things like this, which are essentially negotiations between the leaders of the four big capitalist parties. It seems as though there was a window of opportunity before the proroguement where it looked like Dion was really going to go through with it, but that window was shut when Ignatieff took over and was really more interested in working with Harper.
Well, it's not as if the NDP and their babble supporters were unaware last October that Dion was a lame duck and likely to be replaced sooner rather than later. Or that Iggy was the most likely successor. Yet the Koalition was hailed as a great idea.
Now it seems it was only a great idea because Dion went along with it, and now it's not so hot because Iggy didn't. Apparently the leader of the Liberal party is determining what's good and bad strategy for the NDP.
Well, it does make a difference in terms of what is possible when people are playing these sort of parliamentary games (if it's impossible, it's clearly not a good strategy, and if it is possible it might be a good strategy). When you get right down to it, whether a coalition is possible at all about four people and four numbers: the party leaders and the number of seats they represent.
And maybe some good can come out of this for the NDP. Next election, they can say "look, we tried to stop the Conservatives and had an alternative all lined up, but someone bailed out on us. If it was up to us, Harper would have been shitcanned months ago." And with Ignatieff at the helm, the distinction between the Libs and Cons would be much smaller. Then they might be able to finally achieve their wet dream of replacing the Liberals like they've done in a couple provinces.
Nonsense.
It was a good idea, and still is. It's a minority government and one should always keep the door to their office open. One never knows who will next walk in.
Like the Green Party (just joking).
I guess there were no surprises today. I feel sorry for the NDP.
______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.
Of course not. But it does represent a fundamental change in leadership direction. What Dion lacked in charisma and charm Ignasty lacks in principles and morality. I could be wrong, but my sense of Dion was that there was more to him than the mercenary opportunism of Ignasty.
That's not entirely true. Yes, there was to be a leadership change in the Liberal Party, but you could not have expected babblers to know the Liberals would throw their entire selection and convention process to the wind to ensure Dion was replaced by Ignasty. Butt even then, the real failure, IMO, was Layton's in that he didn't get control of the wheel and remove from Ignasty the possibility of a coalition or concessions. He left Ignasty to campaign on the basis of a coalition Ignasty routinely dissed while Layton and Duceppe twisted in the wind. I think they could have shopped their support, or House confidence, to Harper in exchange for concessions just as easily as with Ignasty.
Ignatieff likens Liberal Party to "flashing yellow light", promises to "drill down" hard on budget updates. The rhetoric is so powerful, it's almost Churchillian. What a great day to be a Liberal.
Seems to me the nominally Canadian Iggy Thumbscrews has manovered the Liberals into a position where if the economy gets better, the Consevatives get the credit, and if it gets worse, they will be identified with that along with the Conservatives.
A lose/lose proposition.
I think it was Jim Travers on Newman's show tonight who shot that analogy to hell, by saying that most folks drive through yellow lights - hell, a lot of folks drive through red lights.
I think you guys are all missing the point today, which is that Harper walks away with all the power. He is prime minister, the only thing Canadians pay attention to, and he controls everything: the order paper, the legislative process, the ministries, the budget implementation or non-implementation, the political news, election timing- everything. For Liberals dumb enough to think that the Liberals control election timing, tell me this: who can propose legislation? who has maybe $20 million in the bank just collecting interest until the next election? who is the prime minister? what obligation does Harper have to the Liberals now that the coalition is dead? who drove the Liberals to their lowest showing since their founding, beat them by almost 1/10 votes in the last election, and is now going to ride his incumbency to re-election? It's the one-man party of Stephen Harper.
Harper has won this battle, he out flanked all the opposition leaders and defeated them with what appears to be little harm to him or his party.
You may not like him or his politics however he has been proven to be a difficult leader to dislodge from the throne.
He has made the other leaders to be ineffective at best.
______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.
Harper has won this battle, he out flanked all the opposition leaders and defeated them with what appears to be little harm to him or his party.
You may not like him or his politics however he has been proven to be a difficult leader to dislodge from the throne.
He has made the other leaders to be ineffective at best.
______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.
Really like to see how the contributors to this thread shake out on the question of Proportional Representation...given the givens!
You know. Because that has to come. Someday?Will B.C. be leading the way?
I know. Another subject in our compartmentalized political world.
Iggy's 'traffic light' analogy today is without question the dumbest butt-stupid thing I've heard today. I'm still laughing at the absurdity of it!
ETA: if Iggy says butt-stupid things, does that make him a butthead?
What are ya, revising history on the fly? Harper is an idiot ruled not by logic or strategy but by petty vindictiveness. He didn't outflank anyone on anything. Ignasty just handed him a get out of jail free card because Ignasty just happens to be a political idiot. It is Layton that has shown strength as a tactician and strategist. His weakness wasn't the plan but his critical partner.
If it wasn't for the spineless Liberals and their gormless Ignasty, Harper would be as of tommorrow in the opposition benches. At least Dion recognized the opportunity handed his party.
I am not trying to re-write anything. Harper may be vindictiveness however he played to other people's greed.
Layton and the Liberal party both made mistakes when dealing with Harper. Layton should have waited until after Dion was gone before making a deal with the Liberal party or Mr. Ignatieff. The Liberal party should have remained in the coalition.
______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.
Nonsense. If Layton waited public funding of political parties would be history as well as the public right to strike as well as various programs that support women. Layton's gamble paid off and sent Harper scurrying like the rat he is. It is only because Ignasty is a mouse the coalition and what it represents is no longer feasible.
"Layton should have waited until after Dion was gone before making a deal with the Liberal party or Mr. Ignatieff."
That would have meant letting Harper do as he pleased until next May. If he had done that, the November economic statement including the plans to drive all the opposition parties into bankruptcy would have passed and then the NDP would have been stuck with only being able to force an election when the Liberals would be on a post-convention honeymoon.
There was no alternative.
With Iggy, they just keep coming. Duceppe was mocking him for saying Canadians need an election like a "hole in the head":
Globe and Mail
For a man sold as a intellectual writer, he really has trouble with a good turn of phrase. He still can't get the tone right for politics in Canada. I wonder if he ever will.
But is it just us (his natural opponents) who notice this stuff, or will the media/public at large pick up on it?
It will definitely be picked up and exploited by Harper's attack ad agencies. Ignasty just gave them a free hand to pulverize his public image as they did Dion and without the leverage of the coalition to fall back on. What a dolt.
I must say Warren Kinsella's comments are somewhat anemic:
http://warrenkinsella.com/
Is it just me, or between the lines does it really say "oh, fuck" in there.
"Ignatieff likens Liberal Party to "flashing yellow light", promises to "drill down" hard on budget updates. The rhetoric is so powerful, it's almost Churchillian. What a great day to be a Liberal."
uh-huh..... "The amendment just states the obvious, so we're very pleased to accept it" - Conservative House leader Jay Hill.
Not Churchill...think Chamberlain pal.
The coalition idea remains an option but not a credible one until after the next election.
The condition to make it work may well be that the NDP and the Liberals hold more seats than the Conservatives, if not a majority.
If a majority they won't need the BQ if not at least they have collectively more seats than the Conservatives going into government.
I think this is a benchmark needed to allow a coalition enough credibility even though the December coalition technically had enough.
I suspect the most likely outcome of the next election is an NDP-Liberal coalition as I thinkthey will have more than the Cons at that time.
The Liberals may have little choice but to vote the Cons down on an update when it is clear the Cons are not spending the money they promised and the ensuing election will be difficult for the Cons who will have to explain having proposed a budget they never intended to follow through on-- the stimulus is so conditioned on P3s, provincial and local funding that it won't happen. The Liberals know that.
I think the Liberals also know there is no point trying to argue the details of this budget when the first update will prove this. Then they won't have to be voting against the fantasy the Cons are putting out they will be voting against a performance that does not measure up.
As much as the right thing to do was to vote no the best political move was to vote yes. For the NDP even it still might work out for the best if the Cons get really hammered.
Dreaming in technicolour here but I hope Duceppe sweeps in Quebec and the NDP make incredible gains throughout Canada so that together they form a coalition government against the Liberals and Conservatives. Hell, I would even put up with a few Greens in that mix.
Ignatieff as leader of the LPC is Harper's wet dream come true. Let the right in Canada battle it out to see who they support. That's like what, 38% of the population?
Maybe worth remembering in all of this that Harper actually made it very difficult for Ignatieff to vote against him by coming up with a budget that was very close to what the Liberals claimed they wanted.
You know what the Liberals wanted from what Ignasty said? Wow.