N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Member: 2258
Joined: Aug 22 2001

Peter3 wrote:
Frustrated Mess wrote:

"The issue isn't religion (although that is an issue), the problem is and remains a human need to dominate and control other humans."

Perhaps it is because I am an atheist product of a devoutly Christian home, but I believe that the problem at the root of this phenomenon is not fundamentalism or extreme religion, but religion itself, precisely because religious institutions propagate and sustain themselves by domination and control.

Religion has been the scourge of free thought and free speech for as long as it has existed.  It is a denial of the most fundamental defining characterisitics of humanity; our rational capacity, our curiosity, our desire to create new things, our need for each other. By demanding faith in archaic rituals and systems of faith, the human capacity for intellectual growth is twisted and deformed into a source of "temptation" and guilt when it should be the instrument of our release from the bondage of superstition.

The notion that religion is entitled to special consideration in society's affairs is embedded in Western culture, and most of the rest of the world, as well.  In Canada, while we were finally accepting same sex marriage as a right, churches were assumed to be exempt and are still permitted to collect money without taxation and use the proceeds to disseminate political propaganda advocating the denial of equal rights to gays. The repulsiveness of fundamentalist Mormonism has no excuse, and yet we will be forced to listen to serious-sounding arguments in a court of law and see them on the front page of supposedly enlightened news publications as the Bountiful case is handled with kid gloves by everyone. If anybody but a religious advocate subjected children to the sort of brainwashing that is routinely employed in religious indoctrination they would quite rightly be packed off to jail.

The spinelessness of western intellectuals and institutions confronted by radical religious bigotry is rooted in a sense that placing limits on "belief" for one set of believers will have implications for all others.  When religion held real secular power in western society there would have been no such pussy-footing; the competing bigots would have been denounced as Satan spawn and that would have been that.  It is the creeping marginalisation of religious power has caused Unitarians to leap to the defense of their more extreme spiritual relatives out of a sense of self-preservation. The idea that religious belief is exempt from the obligations attending fundamental rights and freedoms is allowed to prosper because people feel they should "respect spirituality".

Spirituality is dangerous crap in its most insipid manifestations, and outright evil in its worst forms.  I refuse to accept its influence here. I reject the proposition that as a citizen of a western country I have no right to speak against the evilness of mullahs, rabbis, monks or shamans in countries where people cannot oppose them, or denounce the nastiness and stupidity of their beliefs.

 

You seem to be casting you net rather wide if you equate not just all religious belief but all belief in any spirituality. I don't think it is particularly valid or reasonable to say that Bishop Desmond Tutu is the same as Jerry Falwell or Liberation theology to the beliefs and actions of the Vatican.  Your quite welcome to denounce ignorance and brutality but it is erroneous to say that all ignorance and brutality is due to religion or spirituality. Christianity in most its forms is certainly complicit in European colonialim it is absurd however to lay the blame on indigenous shaman or for that matter other faiths. 

I am also curious as to why the concern is always with the other, who is "over there " is there a lack of ignorance and brutality in the "western world". Do you honestly belief the actions of the western world are distinct and separate from areas that are colonized?

Your post also contains elements of those you criticize and point to the fundamentalist and dogmatic worldview you claim to reject. You still divide the world into the believers and the non-believers, the rational elect and the others.  This is a dangerous dichotomy and I don't think athiest fundamentalism and ratinionalist dogma is any less dangerous than religious ones Stalin and Mao certainly demonstrated that. Claims to absolute knowledge are always dangerous in my mind.


"Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Ghislaine (109 replies) January 28, 2009 - 4:16pm
  • Saga:"I am including the By: George Victor (Jan 30 2009 - 6:29am)
  • lagatta wrote:I respect By: Sven (Jan 30 2009 - 1:55am)
  • saga wrote:I guess I am By: Fidel (Jan 30 2009 - 1:19am)
  • N.R.KISSED wrote:"All of By: saga (Jan 30 2009 - 1:04am)
  • Michelle wrote:And, what By: Unionist (Jan 30 2009 - 1:03am)
  • lagatta wrote:I respect By: al-Qa'bong (Jan 30 2009 - 12:56am)
  • "All of that is unfettered By: N.R.KISSED (Jan 30 2009 - 12:55am)
  • I respect other people's By: lagatta (Jan 29 2009 - 11:28pm)
  • Joe Bageant covers as much By: George Victor (Jan 29 2009 - 11:07pm)
  • Fidel wrote:Dont ask me, ask By: saga (Jan 29 2009 - 9:10pm)
  • saga wrote:Fidel wrote: I'd By: Fidel (Jan 29 2009 - 3:25pm)
  • Fidel wrote:I'd like to see By: saga (Jan 29 2009 - 2:57pm)
  • I'd like to see an end to By: Fidel (Jan 29 2009 - 10:46am)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Catchfire (Jan 29 2009 - 8:04am)
  • All three!And, what By: Michelle (Jan 29 2009 - 7:34am)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Catchfire (Jan 29 2009 - 7:32am)
  • With the proliferation of By: Slumberjack (Jan 29 2009 - 12:07am)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Unionist (Jan 28 2009 - 11:12pm)
  • Webgear wrote:Frustrated By: saga (Jan 28 2009 - 10:57pm)
  • Quote:One thing which I find By: Frustrated Mess (Jan 28 2009 - 9:47pm)
  • saga, excellent example, By: Maysie (Jan 28 2009 - 9:44pm)
  • Frustrated Mess wrote: The By: Webgear (Jan 28 2009 - 9:40pm)
  • Maysie wrote:Since nobody By: saga (Jan 28 2009 - 9:40pm)
  • Quote: At the time, I By: Frustrated Mess (Jan 28 2009 - 9:18pm)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: 500_Apples (Jan 28 2009 - 9:10pm)
  • To return to the opening By: George Victor (Jan 28 2009 - 9:12pm)
  • "Since nobody else has said By: Tommy_Paine (Jan 28 2009 - 8:36pm)
  • And Mr. Hari's last question By: Ken Burch (Jan 28 2009 - 8:20pm)
  • Ghislaine wrote: I usually By: Cueball (Jan 28 2009 - 8:07pm)
  • Doctor's alleged refusal to By: CEP Local 341 (Jan 28 2009 - 7:58pm)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Catchfire (Jan 28 2009 - 7:37pm)
  • Since nobody else has said By: Maysie (Jan 28 2009 - 7:10pm)
  • Seems to me religious By: saga (Jan 28 2009 - 7:11pm)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: Michelle (Jan 28 2009 - 5:01pm)
  • Re: "Why should I respect these oppressive religions?" By: lagatta (Jan 28 2009 - 5:00pm)